N-Reg Confusion

[jau]

Hi, Would someone in the know mind clarifying this for me?

I am wanting to fly an N-reg touring aircraft in the UK and throughout europe but I am a little unsure of the regulations.

I hold a JAA PPL and from what I can understand, I can fly G-reg and N-reg in the UK. If I want to fly the N-reg outside of the UK then I will need an FAA-PPL.

So first question, does anyone know what is required to convert my JAA-PPL to an FAA-PPL or obtain an FAA-PPL. (Surely I won't have to do the whole course?). I am wanting to do some hour building in the USA as well, incidently.

Secondly, this N-reg is IFR equipped and so I want an IR rating - this is where I get really confused.

Can I fly an N-reg IFR in the UK/europe on a JAA-IR?
OR do I need to obtain my FAA-IR (this was what I was told).

Now, if I do have my FAA-IR (but not a JAA) then can I fly G-reg aircraft under IFR or only N-reg?

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions but I am somewhat confused.

In other words: I am a JAA-PPL who wants to fly and N-reg aircraft under VFR and IFR in the UK and around Europe: What must I do?

Thanks for any advice!

[echobeach]

I am just going through all the same steps.
Despite all the advice this is a challenge but I think we are making progress

Some very helpful answers on this recent thread. Not sure if this is the correct way to post the link but it seems to work


http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...stest-way.html

[Fuji Abound]

I will have a go (for the fun of it). I have three licenses but I still get confused! IO540 will be along to correct me.

I hold a JAA PPL and from what I can understand, I can fly G-reg and N-reg in the UK.

Yes. Now the buts. You cant fly at night, unless you have a night rating, and you cant fly in VMC over an undercast unless you can see the ground.

If I want to fly the N-reg outside of the UK then I will need an FAA-PPL.

Maybe. There are two schools - you can and you cant. To be safe it is probably best avoided.

does anyone know what is required to convert my JAA-PPL to an FAA-PPL or obtain an FAA-PPL.

You need the paperwork from the CAA to say you are who you are and your logbook is what it is! You need to do the FAA theory - you get no exemptions for the JAA theory. You need to do the flight test, and will need to do as much additional training as prescribed by your instructor.

Can I fly an N-reg IFR in the UK/europe on a JAA-IR?

UK yes, Europe probably not, see above. However the foreign pilot conversion is a very straight forward route to an FAA IR.

Now, if I do have my FAA-IR (but not a JAA) then can I fly G-reg aircraft under IFR or only N-reg

Yes in the UK, but only in VMC and ourside CAS. You can extend your priviliges to IFR in IMC outside class A by applying for an IMCr which will be forthcoming without additional training. You cannot fly in class A in the UK or Europe whatever you do because there are subtle differences in the way airways physics work in Europe compared with the US which you can only learn by doing a JAA IR.

In short if you have a JAA PPL and think you will fly both G-reg and N-reg in the UK and Europe and want as much protection from whatever that lot at EASA cook up then you are best off doing a JAA IR, an FAA PPL and a foreign pilot conversion of your JAA IR. In that way you have the lot and can do just about anything time, money and other committments allow along as you always ultimately give way to the capabilities of your aircraft and the weather.

[IO540]

I am wanting to fly an N-reg touring aircraft in the UK and throughout europe but I am a little unsure of the regulations.

I hold a JAA PPL and from what I can understand, I can fly G-reg and N-reg in the UK. If I want to fly the N-reg outside of the UK then I will need an FAA-PPL.

Correct.

An N-reg can be flown worldwide (outside the USA) on a license issued by the owner of the airspace. Ref: FAR 61.3.

A G-reg can be flown worldwide on any ICAO PPL, VFR only and if flying IFR then only outside controlled airspace. Ref ANO Art 26. (**)


So first question, does anyone know what is required to convert my JAA-PPL to an FAA-PPL or obtain an FAA-PPL. (Surely I won't have to do the whole course?). I am wanting to do some hour building in the USA as well, incidently.

Secondly, this N-reg is IFR equipped and so I want an IR rating - this is where I get really confused.

Can I fly an N-reg IFR in the UK/europe on a JAA-IR?

You still need a license issued by the relevant airspace owner (which basically means an FAA license, to be practical. As for using a JAA IR in an N-reg, I am sure this is OK, again ref 61.3. The FARs just call for an "instrument rating".

OR do I need to obtain my FAA-IR (this was what I was told).

If somebody says so, ask for the reference. I could be wrong.

Now, if I do have my FAA-IR (but not a JAA) then can I fly G-reg aircraft under IFR or only N-reg?

You can fly a G-reg IFR worldwide but only outside CAS (ref ANO Art 26) which is basically useless, especially in Europe where most IFR-applicable airspace is Class E or stricter.

I'm sorry for the barrage of questions but I am somewhat confused.

In other words: I am a JAA-PPL who wants to fly and N-reg aircraft under VFR and IFR in the UK and around Europe: What must I do?

If you want to fly an N-reg plane, the only 100% sure and practical solution is an FAA PPL (which can be a piggyback or - far preferably - a standalone one), and the FAA IR involves considerably less ground study than the JAA IR.

However, the regulatory climate is gradually changing in Europe and by 2012 or so, EASA will have made a mark on it. Nobody knows quite what they will do. There is a proposal out which will strip all EU resident pilots of foreign license privileges, which is obviously pretty draconian but a backtrack on this is certain, but nobody knows quite what it might be. There is another proposal due out Nov 08 which will (may) attack N-reg airframes; this is thought to be less of a threat simply because it is virtually impossible to draft (France and the UK tried this and dropped it after massive protests). The upshot of this is that a newcomer to this scene (private IFR) ought to carefully consider both the FAA and JAA routes. EASA will probably also kill the UK concession marked (**) above.

You can convert a JAA PPL/IR to an FAA PPL/IR (all standalone) quite easily. The PPL is just a few hours' flight and a checkride, plus the medical and the 2 exams. The IR conversion is just a foreign pilot exam, possibly a checkride, but I don't remember. The USA is very generous in accepting foreign papers, unlike Europe which is heavily protectionist.

You can convert an FAA PPL/IR to a JAA PPL/IR, by sitting all the exams (7 for the JAA IR, plus 7 or (if >100hrs TT) 3 for the PPL), doing a min 15hrs' IR training, and a checkride, plus the medicals (Class 2 is OK but you need to pass the audiogram from the Class 1 medical).

The FAA -> JAA conversion is quite a lot of hassle, study and more hassle, but it still represents a big flying discount from the 50hrs (55 if ME) of doing the JAA IR ab initio, and this makes the FAA PPL/IR a reasonable stepping stone to the JAA IR (and, depending on EASA actions, you may never actually need to do the JAA IR). Especially as the FAA licenses/ratings allow all previous ICAO training as a credit, whereas the JAA stuff does not accept ANY previous instrument training as a credit. So if doing the FAA IR, e.g. the UK IMC Rating dual time counts fully towards the FAA IR requirements, but it counts nothing towards the JAA IR requirements. I am sure the great majority of UK based FAA IR pilots did the UK IMC Rating first and then went to the USA to do the IR, and did it with perhaps just 20hrs' flight training.

I have sent you a PM, jau.

[paulthornton]

IO540,

In passing through this thread, I saw your comment regarding a G-reg aircraft being able to be flown worldwide on an ICAO license.

As a PPL on an Australian license, I was surprised by this as I'd always been told that I couldn't take a G-reg aircraft out of the UK. I was aware of the "no IFR in CAS" restriction, but that isn't a real problem for me.

Thank you so much for your reference to the relevant chapter and verse in the ANO - this clearly contradicts what I had been told by various instructors (and I have to say the CAA on one occasion in the dim and distant past) - so I'm very happy and might contemplate a trip to France to celebrate ... if the weather ever gets near VFR conditions!

Paul.

[Whopity]

An N-reg can be flown worldwide (outside the USA) on a license issued by the owner of the airspace. Ref: FAR 61.3.

However beware in Europe each State issues its own licence, there is no such thing as a JAA licence that allows you to fly a N reg in a JAA State other than the one where the licence was issued. As you can only hold one JAA licence that restricts you to UK.

A G-reg can be flown worldwide on any ICAO PPL, VFR only and if flying IFR then only outside controlled airspace. Ref ANO Art 26. (**)

But not IFR if its a JAA licence that is subject to JAR-FCL 1.175 ANO Schedule 8.

[englishal]

There is a proposal out which will strip all EU resident pilots of foreign license privileges,

What is the story if you were say a resident of the Channel Islands? I'm seriously considering becoming a CI resident for tax purposes, and I wonder how being a "non EU" resident could benefit or not foreign pilot certificates and airframes?

[jau]

Thanks for the replies. It seems easier to do the JAA-IR and then simply go to the states, do a couple of days flight training to earn a standalone FAA PPL-IR and then come back and be completely covered for both N and G anywhere in the world.

The saying 'there are no short cuts in aviation' comes to mind.

Thanks for all your help!

IO540, I didn't recieve the PM? Thanks for all your advice though.

Richard

[IO540]

What is the story if you were say a resident of the Channel Islands?

Based on the current proposal, you will be ok. ICAO does allow a member state to ban its own citizens from exercising the privileges of a foreign license (in its own airspace) but EASA cannot stop "foreigners" flying into Europe.

However, if they did impose the long term parking ban (like e.g. the aborted UK proposal) that would catch you out too. After say 90 days, you would have to unscrew the wings and cart your plane out of the EU on the back of a trailer (and no, I don't think it would work, either!)

EASA's objective is the ever so laudable European superior-intellectual one whereby they want to obtain a reciprocal treaty with every other country in the world, covering mutual license recognition. Trying to argue with that is a bit like telling Bob Geldof to not run those highly effective pop concerts to abolish worldwide poverty. EASA might achieve this, or might not, or there will be some kind of compromise. I don't think we will know for 2-3 years. Obviously what really matters is whether they will get such a treaty with the USA (the Belgian Congo is less important in this case) and I don't think they will get one with the USA.

Richard - I sent you an email via the pprune email facility.

It seems easier to do the JAA-IR and then simply go to the states, do a couple of days flight training to earn a standalone FAA PPL-IR and then come back and be completely covered for both N and G anywhere in the world.

That would cover all the bases, but I wouldn't call it "easy". 7 exams (PPL/IR) but there is a strategy which has been done: revise like hell for a week from the published question banks, sit all 7 exams over a day or two, then revise properly for those which you failed. It probably won't work for you if you know nothing about IFR but somebody who has been flying IFR and knows the stuff already, should probably pass half of them.

You also have to do 50 (55 if ME) hrs dual flight training, with an IR school, which will be far from cheap.

This is why, for those who are happy to bet on EASA not screwing everybody, and who have an N-reg plane already or can get one, and who have the IMC Rating, the FAA IR is a very good middle step which gives you instant worldwide IFR privileges and the way you can do it at any of many schools in the USA makes it quite easy to slot into your life. But make sure the N-reg plane hasn't got anything in it which would be a nightmare to put on an EU register.

In fact if you want an absolutely watertight guarantee of always being able to fly everywhere in Europe, IFR, in anything that flies, do the JAA CPL/IR. It's only 14 exams

[easy307]

Please confirm ...
A holder of a JAA CPL/IR can fly an N-reg aircraft IFR throughout Europe ?
Would this be true of a public transport flight in an N-reg aircraft ?

[Fuji Abound]

Sorry to be thick but I didnt understand some of the subsequent answers. They seem a bit disjointed and didnt deal specifically with the questions.

Perhaps it is jsut me?

Was anyone actually disagreeing with my original replies to the questions?

[bkehoe]

paulthornton, I've asked the UK CAA this question myself, and their reply was along the lines of that they're allowing an ICAO license holder to fly the UK G reg aircraft and it didn't matter where the aircraft actually was.

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by easy307

Please confirm ...
A holder of a JAA CPL/IR can fly an N-reg aircraft IFR throughout Europe ?
Would this be true of a public transport flight in an N-reg aircraft ?

The answer is no (probably).

The law is clear - you must have a licence issued by the State in which you are flying the N-Reg. The uncertainty is if, in this context, Europe is a State and JAA/EASA that State's regulator (and NAAs and places like the UK being but a local region within the larger state).

My personal view is - the local NAA takes enforcement action (rather than EASA direct enforcement action to be taken) ergo the places like UK, France, Germany are States and are separately regulated and therefore you need a licence issued by the specific State in which you wish to fly the N-Reg (or obviously an FAA licence)

[jxc]

Computer says nah

[Air Soul]

In very simple terms two of the three must be the same;

Airspace

Licence

Registration



Thus N reg, FAA Licence - any airspace

N Reg, UK JAA Licence - UK airspace

G Reg, UK JAA Licence - any airspace

G Reg, FAA Licence - UK airspace

etc.

There are, of course, exceptions - which no doubt will be pointed out in subsequent posts.....

[englishal]

you would have to unscrew the wings and cart your plane out of the EU on the back of a trailer

But the CI are not in the EU...?

[IO540]

In very simple terms two of the three must be the same;

Airspace

Licence

Registration

The above is a very well worn rumour working its way around the GA scene and is untrue, except by pure fluke. There is NO such rule whatsoever.

ICAO guarantees only one thing: if the country of license issue matches the country of registry, you can fly all over ICAO-land, noncommercially.

The practice is more restrictive, of course. There is stuff like PPR, and there are countries (ICAO members) where they will make you into soup.

But not IFR if its a JAA licence that is subject to JAR-FCL 1.175 ANO Schedule 8.

Can you explain what that means, in plain language and with references, Whopity?

But the CI are not in the EU...?

OK I agree there. IOM residents should also be protected from anything cenceivably to do with EASA.

Interestingly the ICAO provision I referred to uses the word "nationals" which I think means a citizenship. Now, most CI/IOM residents do also hold a UK citizenship, don't they? To guard against the worst case scenario (if the wording was thus amended) they would have to revoke their UK citizenship. This is possible (it is on the Home Office website) but has certain drawbacks, and losing the right of abode in the UK is one of them. I don't know whether EASA's use of "resident" rather than "national" is deliberate - I suppose they had to do that because the EU is not a "country" and there is no such thing as an "EU citizenship". But in that case the EASA proposal is in breach of ICAO. Still, it doesn't matter because they can always file a difference to ICAO, on absolutely anything.

[Whopity]

Quote:
But not IFR if its a JAA licence that is subject to JAR-FCL 1.175 ANO Schedule 8.
Can you explain what that means, in plain language and with references, Whopity?

A simple licencing privilege (or restriction) that is often missed.

Schedule 8 Section 2 for all JAA licences contains the following:

(2) The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1.

This effectively prevents a JAA licence holder from flying IFR in any airspace without an IR (or National equivalent such as IMC). It is the major difference between a JAA licence and a UK National licence which has no such restriction.

[echobeach]

is it possible then to fly n reg craft in uk airspace ifr in imc using your jaa ppl and imc rating. I am now from the above posts even less clear if you can do this to the channel islands. If the imc rating is valid there does this mean that you can fly n reg ifr to jersey on uk jaa ppl.
I know answer is to get faa ppl but i am just waiting for all the papers to go through.

[Islander2]

Whopity wrote

This effectively prevents a JAA licence holder from flying IFR in any airspace without an IR (or National equivalent such as IMC). It is the major difference between a JAA licence and a UK National licence which has no such restriction.

It's difficult to see how the ability, with a UK National Licence, to fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace when VMC and in sight of the surface constitutes a 'major difference'

In practical terms, it surely constitutes no difference at all?