N-Reg Confusion

[Islander2]

And I have it in writing that the IMC is bot valid in the CI zone, only that it may be used to lower the SVR requirements but NOT fly under IFR.

Interesting, bose-x, could you clarify what you mean?

Flight in IMC in the Channel Islands CTR is obviously not possible with an IMC Rating because the airspace is Class A. I assume, therefore, you're referring to the Class D CTR's that surround Guernsey and Jersey. Many years ago (I've no idea about the present position), the IMCR used to be taught by instructors in Guernsey who only had an IMCR, and that included practice approaches in other than VMC! Does your letter of advice indicate that is no longer permitted.

[S-Works]

Quote:
Pay attention there at the back of the class!
and you wonder why I did the FAA CPL/IR

JAA PPL, CPL, IR = ~ 20 exams
FAA PPL, IR, CPL = 3 exams

And you wonder why people accuse you of getting them from the back of a cereal packet?

It is this very waving of your FAA 'willy' publicly to the Eurocrats that is like a red rag to a bull.

As a point of fact the JAA exams are easy, any monkey can do them, it just strikes me that the congenitally lazy always look for an even easier way......

I wonder if people will ever learn just to keep there mouths shut and get on with it.

Do you know how you get a Hungarian CPL/IR?

[S-Works]

Interesting, bose-x, could you clarify what you mean?

Flight in IMC in the Channel Islands CTR is obviously not possible with an IMC Rating because the airspace is Class A. I assume, therefore, you're referring to the Class D CTR's that surround Guernsey and Jersey. Many years ago (I've no idea about the present position), the IMCR used to be taught by instructors in Guernsey who only had an IMCR, and that included practice approaches in other than VMC! Does your letter of advice indicate that is no longer permitted.

I asked the question is an IMCR rating valid in the Jersey Zone. The answer was that it was only valid as far as reducing the viz minima on a SVR clearance and that it did not confer IFR privileges in the Jersey Zone. They also added a reminder that flight at night was IFR.

I have no idea what happened in the past but it is my understanding that Instructors teaching for the IMC in the Zone hold an Instrument rating when doing training in other than VMC.

[Fuji Abound]

Interesting - perhaps if someone asked whether the rating was valid in the ATZ (which is indeed class D) they might get a different answer.

I thought at night the airspace became French? Would it not therefore be under French juristiction?

[S-Works]

I did actually raise the question once:

A pilot flying from the UK who has an IMCR rating can fly out of sight of the surface. So could they fly on a VFR flight plan over a solid overcast, cross the zone SVFR to the ATZ and then ask to upgrade to IFR and ask to do an approach to let down.

The answer was no.

[Islander2]

The answer was no.

bose-x, that doesn't really help: their answer has to be 'no' in any event, since an SVFR clearance is not available for flying above a solid overcast. The question would need to be posed on the basis that the weather is suitable for an SVFR clearance in the Class A but requires IFR for the Class D portion. In my experience of flying frequently to Guernsey for more than 30 years, that combination does arise occasionally.

[IO540]

"SVFR clearance is not available for flying above a solid overcast"

Why not?

[Islander2]

From the AIP:

"When operating on a Special VFR clearance, the pilot must comply with ATC instructions and remain at all times in flight conditions which enable him to determine his flight path and to keep clear of obstacles. Therefore, it is implicit in all Special VFR clearances that the aircraft remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. It may be necessary for ATC purposes to impose a height limitation on a Special VFR clearance which will require the pilot to fly either at or not above a specific level."

From the Rules of the Air:

(k) ‘special VFR flight’ means a flight—
(i) made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace or made in any other
control zone in either Instrument Meteorological Conditions or at night;
(ii) in respect of which the appropriate air traffic control unit has given permission for
the flight to be made in accordance with special instructions given by that unit
instead of in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules; and
(iii) in the course of which the aircraft complies with any instructions given by that unit
and the aircraft remains clear of cloud and with the surface in sight;

Edited to add the actual legislation from the Rules of the Air. Boy, I've got too much time on my hands today!

[421C]

Do you know how you get a Hungarian CPL/IR?

No, tell us.....?

[Fuji Abound]

I thought Hungary was a full EASA member?

Therefore, it is implicit in all Special VFR clearances that the aircraft remains clear of cloud and in sight of the surface.

Which bit makes it implicit?

Doesnt VMC on top enable the pilot to determine his flight path and keep clear of obstacles?

[englishal]

Isn't Jersey Zone actually in the Brest FIR...and hence under French rules

Isn't SVFR different in different places in Europe? Whereas the vis minima get tougher in the UK, most other places they are relaxed. If you asked for SVFR in the USA you could fly in 1 statute mile vis.

[IO540]

I don't see how ATC could enforce (and thus not offer an SVFR clearance) the 'sight of surface' requirement (which in any case applies only to a UK issued PPL) because they have no way of knowing what the pilot can see.

Also, the AIP is not law.

Sight of surface is also completely unnecessary for navigation

Of course Hungary is a JAA member. The only thing I have recently heard about Hungary is that they offer some useful options for the colour vision test. As we all know this has to be passed only once per life, but you are allowed to fail each of the ~ 4 approved tests only once in your whole life. If you fail say the Lantern test, you are not allowed to take it again in your whole life, anywhere in the world. What a total farce. So.... Hungary is popular with JAA ATPL candidates for this reason - they go there for the CV test before turning up at Gatwick for the rest of the Class 1 medical. I've never been there myself so this is 2nd hand info, direct from a CAA AME.

Isn't Jersey Zone actually in the Brest FIR

I've heard so many versions of who actually owns Jersey airspace... no idea.

[Islander2]

Also, the AIP is not law.

Sight of surface is also completely unnecessary for navigation

But the Rules of the Air are law, and (as quoted in the edited version of my previous post) they require clear of cloud and sight of surface for SVFR flight.

[mm_flynn]

Given ATC is only providing traffic separation services but not obstacle/terrain separation (and SVFR is available to pilots and aircraft unable to undertake any radio navigation), it seems a reasonable requirement to be in visual contact with the ground.

Interestingly, this is not actually required in the FARs (but is required for visual and contact approaches). It is a requirement in the ANO, however, it is in the slightly obscure Section 1 (Interpretation) part of the ANO.

[Islander2]

Since it is prescribed by the Rules of the Air, the 'in sight of surface' requirement for SVFR applies to all aeroplanes operating within the UK (including N-reg ), and to all G-reg aeroplanes worldwide.