N-Reg Confusion

[IO540]

This effectively prevents a JAA licence holder from flying IFR in any airspace without an IR (or National equivalent such as IMC). It is the major difference between a JAA licence and a UK National licence which has no such restriction.

I agree with Islander2; I cannot see the meaning of this. On my UK issued JAA PPL, before I got the IMCR, I could fly IFR in VMC, yes? It doesn't matter if you have a UK CAA PPL or the post-2000 UK JAA PPL.

Any ICAO PPL holder can fly IFR in VMC in UK airspace - unless his State of license issue says otherwise (e.g. the FAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR at all without an IR, so what does this do for night flight in the UK which is automatically IFR aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh nooooo not that one again!!!!! )

is it possible then to fly n reg craft in uk airspace ifr in imc using your jaa ppl and imc rating. I am now from the above posts even less clear if you can do this to the channel islands. If the imc rating is valid there does this mean that you can fly n reg ifr to jersey on uk jaa ppl.
I know answer is to get faa ppl but i am just waiting for all the papers to go through.

aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh nooooo not that one again!!!!!

I have it in writing from both the CAA and the FAA that the UK IMCR is good for an N-reg plane. And there is no known rule that states otherwise, with any clarity. You have an email or PM echobeach.

As regards Jersey, it has its own ANO and you would need a similar reply from the Jersey CAA and from the FAA....

But TBH this thread contains a fair # of old sleeping dogs which are never likely to be resolved with total clarity.

[Fuji Abound]

so what does this do for night flight in the UK which is automatically IFR aaaaaarrrrrrggggghhhhhh nooooo not that one again!!!!!

Not a lot.

If the pilot has a JAA night rating then he can fly at night on his JAA license. If he doesnt, he cant. That means if he has an FAA license, piggyback or otherwise, in the UK he will be flying on his JAA license in an N reg, so it makes no difference.

The only case it would be a problem is if he only had a stand alone FAA license without an IR in which case he couldnt fly an N reg at night - unless he asked for a SVFR clearance - in which case he could.

[IO540]

The problem is that an FAA standalone PPL comes with an automatic night privilege (unless you took advantage of the Alaska or Hawaii option??), so why is this no good in UK airspace?

It is a grey area, IMHO.

[Fuji Abound]

Yes, I know, but the point I was getting at is there are probably not many standalone FAA pilots in the UK with a JAA license.

Of course a piggyback license is not sufficient, so the pilot has had to go to the trouble of getting a stand alone FAA license and not done a night rating on his JAA license.

[421C]

If the imc rating is valid there does this mean that you can fly n reg ifr to jersey on uk jaa ppl.

You can't fly any reg IFR in the Channel Islands zone with an IMCr, it's Class A.

[IO540]

SoCal - apologies, I vaguely recalled there was an option to do the FAA PPL without the night privileges.

Yes, I know, but the point I was getting at is there are probably not many standalone FAA pilots in the UK with a JAA license.

Did you not leave a word out, Fuji? I was such a pilot for 2 years, until I got the IR.

There are also numerous FAA standalone PPL holders who have no other papers, though the reasons for that are perhaps less apparent if the pilot is living in the UK.

[Air Soul]

You cannot fly N reg in the CI on a JAA licence. Guernsey and Jersey have their own ANOs, but are not UK airspace. However the UK IMC rating is valid, on a G reg aircraft - to a degree as the CI zone is substantially Class A.

And agreed the 2 out of 3 'rule' is not written anywhere - it's a practical rule of thumb.

[Squeegee Longtail]

Confused

...ok now I am confused, where I thought I knew before. I am a British citizen, resident in France, with an FAA Private IR. Nothing else.

Can I VFR fly a G-Reg in UK/Europe?

[IO540]

However the UK IMC rating is valid, on a G reg aircraft

Reference please [my emphasis]

The ANO does not limit IMCR privileges by aircraft registration (and I have that in writing from the CAA). Only its IFR privileges are limited to UK. The removal of the need to be in sight of surface, and the extended SVFR privileges, are valid worldwide.

...ok now I am confused, where I thought I knew before. I am a British citizen, resident in France, with an FAA Private IR. Nothing else.

Can I VFR fly a G-Reg in UK/Europe?

If you have any ICAO PPL then you can fly a G-reg worldwide VFR (ref ANO Art 26). With your ICAO (non-JAA) IR you can also fly the G-reg IFR but only OCAS which is virtually useless in France because most of the relevant routes and terminal areas there are Class D/E. It merely means that you are not illegal when enroute in IMC in French Class G.

[mm_flynn]

A summary of the rules (believed to be correct)

G-Reg Aircraft

• Old CAA/UK PPL - Can fly VFR anywhere but subject UK restrictions, Can fly IFR in a limited sense in the UK (allowed to fly IFR OCAS elsewhere but realistically nowhere else allows IFR without an clearance and an IR)
• JAA/UK PPL - Can fly VFR anywhere but subject UK restrictions, Can fly IFR in the context of night flight OCAS, but does not have the limited IFR privileges of the old CAA licence.
• JAA/UK IMC - Can fly VFR anywhere, almost surely no longer subject to in sight of surface limit globally, can fly IFR but not class A in the UK
• JAA/UK IR - No worries
• FAA/PPL can fly VFR anywhere, can not fly IFR, but maybe can fly UK night IFR (as the intent is clearly not to require any instrument skills for this type of IFR)(The referenced JAR-FCL 1.175 I believe also addresses the UK weird night IFR but not really IFR issue by excluding this case from the more general restriction)
• FAA/IR Can fly VFR anywhere, can fly IFR outside controlled airspace (But of limited use see above)

N-Reg Aircraft

• JAA/UK PPL Can fly VFR (subject to all UK restrictions) in the UK (and maybe the United States of Europe)
• JAA/UK IMC Probably can exercise all privileges of the UK IMC in UK airspace (many people say they have written confirmation of this statement)
• JAA/UK IR Can fly IFR in all airspace in the UK
• FAA PPL can fly anywhere VFR, may as stated above be able to fly IFR in the UK in VMC in the OCAS, can not fly night IFR in places like Ireland where they require real IFR (i.e. clearance and rating)
• FAA IR - no worries, but may not be able to do DIY approaches in the UK like an IMCr/IR holder (US IFR doesn't allow this, but it is in part 91 which broadly is superseded by ICAO and local regs outside the US).

[Air Soul]

Perhaps careless wording on my part - the UK IMC rating is valid in CI airspace. However I have it in writing from the Manager ATC Guernsey that you may not fly a N Reg aircraft on a JAA licence in the CI zone. I don't believe this has changed under the shortly to be introduced revised ANO - but I will check this and give you a reference.

Can you fly a JAA registered aircraft in the CI zone, and use IMC rating privileges? I believe so.

[Islander2]

JAA/UK PPL - Can fly VFR anywhere but subject UK restrictions, Can fly IFR in a limited sense in the UK (allowed to fly IFR OCAS elsewhere but realistically nowhere else allows IFR without an clearance and an IR)

Er, no! As Whopity correctly pointed out, IFR flight is totally prohibited on a JAA vanilla PPL licence, other than for dual training, skill testing or, in the UK, night flight.

[mm_flynn]

You and Whopity appear to be correct - I had not really appreciated this change (having not had to change to a JAA licence yet). I have fixed the previous list to reflect the difference between Old CAA and JAA PPL IFR privileges

[Fuji Abound]

(a) The holder of a pilot licence (A) shall
not act in any capacity as a pilot of an aeroplane
under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR), except as a
pilot undergoing skill testing or dual training,
unless the holder has an instrument rating
(IR(A)) appropriate to the category of aircraft
issued in accordance with JAR–FCL.
(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only.

So if a "vanilla" JAA pilot is flying in the UK in VMC above the transition level but conforming to the correct IFR height is he IFR because he is conforming with national legislation or is he conforming with international legislation or is he simply conforming?

[mm_flynn]

He is simply conforming with CAA advice that VFR flights are recommended to fly at quadrantals in the circumstances IFR would require compliance).


In the context of a CAA vanilla PPL the actual operation of an aircraft under IFR and VFR is virtually identical (the only significant difference is quadrantals are mandatory under IFR and recommended under VFR), so most UK PPLs don't really think about it (and I suspect most in their minds are VFR).

However, the bit I hadn't thought about is - A UK PPL was broadly exempt from the cloud clearance requirements of VMC above the TA as he could just as well be IFR (but clear of clouds and with the required in flight vis). It appears that JAA/UK PPLs do not have this privilege and must (like all other PPLs) remain in VMC (in the full sense of the term) as all times.

[IO540]

• JAA/UK PPL Can fly VFR (subject to all UK restrictions) in the UK (and maybe the United States of Europe)

I think FAR 61.3 makes this UK only (the word is "issued", but this is another old chestnut)

• JAA/UK IR Can fly IFR in all airspace in the UK

Why only the UK? I don't recall seening anything in the FARs saying you need an FAA IR for IFR. The wording is usually "instrument rating".

Interesting that a JAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR in VMC.... not many people know that. That's a really obscure one, not in the ANO it seems. I thought that all JAA regs were supposed to be transported to the ANO in order to become national law? Not that it matters much in practice - hardly anybody declares themselves "IFR" when in actual VMC; the only benefit would be a possibly better chance of getting a radar service.

[Islander2]

Interesting that a JAA PPL holder cannot fly IFR in VMC.... not many people know that. That's a really obscure one, not in the ANO it seems. I thought that all JAA regs were supposed to be transported to the ANO in order to become national law?

Pay attention there at the back of the class!

As Whopity pointed out, it is in the ANO ... Schedule 8 mandates JAA PPL/CPL/ATPL holders to comply with the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR-FCL 1.

[S-Works]

Perhaps careless wording on my part - the UK IMC rating is valid in CI airspace.

And I have it in writing that the IMC is bot valid in the CI zone, only that it may be used to lower the SVR requirements but NOT fly under IFR.

[IO540]

Pay attention there at the back of the class!

and you wonder why I did the FAA CPL/IR

JAA PPL, CPL, IR = ~ 20 exams
FAA PPL, IR, CPL = 3 exams

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by IO540

I think FAR 61.3 makes this UK only (the word is "issued", but this is another old chestnut)

The US of Europe comment was there to reflect the old chestnut and the fact that some people believe they have been told by some countries that it may be ok sometimes, depending on phase of ...... blah blah ....

Originally Posted by IO540

Why only the UK? I don't recall seeing anything in the FARs saying you need an FAA IR for IFR. The wording is usually "instrument rating".

For the same reason the JAA/PPL is UK only for an N-reg (the IR just like the underlying licence is only valid in the State of Issue - you can see I don't subscribe to the old chestnut above)

Originally Posted by IO540

That's a really obscure one, not in the ANO it seems.

It is indirectly there as a reference to FCL 1.175 though in the ANO version I looked at the full text of 1.175 need to be referenced in the DCL 01 document. Given the simplicity of the point I am surprised that it wasn't incorporated in full text.