Filing IFR for flight outside of controlled airspace?
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I merely stated that in my humble opinion using IFR as a way of 'getting a better service than others' could be construed as bad airmanship.
And there we have it.
Originally Posted by Anon
There is none so blind as he who will not see.
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I know its your opinion; the reason I persisted with my point is that you are an instructor and therefore are in a position to influence others. Your opinion really needs balancing by another, because your opinion isn't what the ANO mandates.
In UK, any pilot is perfectly within his/her rights to fly under IFR in good VMC outside CAS. If a pilot wishes to request a RIS or RAS under VMC, he/she is also perfectly within his/her rights to do so, without fear of any penalty whatsoever. The worst thing that can happpen is that the ATC unit cannot provide the requested service.
The ops manual of a well known aviation operator I previously flew with requires their pilots to obtain a radar service outside CAS, wherever possible, irrespective of flight rules or met conditions.
It's surely not:
Fly safe 
In UK, any pilot is perfectly within his/her rights to fly under IFR in good VMC outside CAS. If a pilot wishes to request a RIS or RAS under VMC, he/she is also perfectly within his/her rights to do so, without fear of any penalty whatsoever. The worst thing that can happpen is that the ATC unit cannot provide the requested service.
The ops manual of a well known aviation operator I previously flew with requires their pilots to obtain a radar service outside CAS, wherever possible, irrespective of flight rules or met conditions.
It's surely not:
reprehensible
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adjective blameworthy, bad, disgraceful, shameful, delinquent, errant, unworthy, objectionable, culpable, ignoble, discreditable, remiss, erring, opprobrious, condemnable, censurable << OPPOSITE praiseworthy
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Oh for gods sake.....
Covers ears and starts singing, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah.
I am not arguing against people using a RIS/RAS. My point merely reflects the point of people using IFR as a basis for getting a better service than others in the same circumstances.
Beat your drum as much as you like, I don't give a ****.....
Covers ears and starts singing, lah, lah, lah, lah, lah.
I am not arguing against people using a RIS/RAS. My point merely reflects the point of people using IFR as a basis for getting a better service than others in the same circumstances.
Beat your drum as much as you like, I don't give a ****.....
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Thankyou for that response, which was surely thought out to the best of your ability.
When I am IFR, I am IFR. I don't tell them I something different in order to get a 'better' service than others. Last time I looked I was required to be IFR in Class A. I use the airways under the same rules as everyone else using them and do not ask for anything different.
I find doing this means I get hand offs into and out of the airways system and experience has shown that if you have been in the airways even for a fairly short way then things go smoothly
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In other words you fly in the airways to get a better service than is provided to the plebs below. A clearer case of double standards I haven't seen!
Surely the issue is unnecessary declaration of IFR?
If you wish to fly IFR in VMC, then you should only expect a level of service commensurate with the airspace category. Try asking for a RAS in Class G on a busy day and you are your own worst enemy - you will be vectored around every 'unknown' contact.
If you don't want to be so inconvenienced, then either fly VFR and lookout of the window rather than at Garmin eye-candy - or play airliners in your spamcan by flying airways if you hold a valid IR.
RIS/RAS are great for short term use such as cloud penetration to VMC-on-top - or for descending below cloud to safety altitude or limits of radar cover.
But those "Err, Golf Alfa Blah Blah, I'm a turbo-super Piper something Romeo form Somewhere to Nowhere, routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI, Flight Level 50 request Radar Advisory" types who bumble about in 50 km viz in Class G airspace merely annoy everyone - fellow pilots and ATCOs alike!
I have a few thousand hours of airways time but now avoid IFR like the plague - I don't need my IR anymore; the IMCR is just fine for the limited IMC time I need. I'd far sooner fly without having to yakk on the wireless to anyone every few minutes, just pottering along enjoying the VFR view out of the window!
Unfortunately the soon-to-be 'Deconfliction' service will allow the equivalent of RAS under VFR. A sneaky ruse to force mandatory Mode S on everyone, a cynic might think.....
If you wish to fly IFR in VMC, then you should only expect a level of service commensurate with the airspace category. Try asking for a RAS in Class G on a busy day and you are your own worst enemy - you will be vectored around every 'unknown' contact.
If you don't want to be so inconvenienced, then either fly VFR and lookout of the window rather than at Garmin eye-candy - or play airliners in your spamcan by flying airways if you hold a valid IR.
RIS/RAS are great for short term use such as cloud penetration to VMC-on-top - or for descending below cloud to safety altitude or limits of radar cover.
But those "Err, Golf Alfa Blah Blah, I'm a turbo-super Piper something Romeo form Somewhere to Nowhere, routing via the ABC to the DEF to the GHI, Flight Level 50 request Radar Advisory" types who bumble about in 50 km viz in Class G airspace merely annoy everyone - fellow pilots and ATCOs alike!
I have a few thousand hours of airways time but now avoid IFR like the plague - I don't need my IR anymore; the IMCR is just fine for the limited IMC time I need. I'd far sooner fly without having to yakk on the wireless to anyone every few minutes, just pottering along enjoying the VFR view out of the window!
Unfortunately the soon-to-be 'Deconfliction' service will allow the equivalent of RAS under VFR. A sneaky ruse to force mandatory Mode S on everyone, a cynic might think.....
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Surely the issue is unnecessary declaration of IFR?
Oh I see. So on a gin clear day you need to fly in the airways, perhaps to get a better fuel consumption, take advantage of headwinds, ... oh no hang on, here's why you say you do it:
But I bet the same people who think that is acceptable to make an unnecessary declaration of IFR are still amongst those screaming the loudest about not needing a mode S transponder........
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Responding to the first post only:
It's a very good question, and firstly it depends on why/whether you actually file a flight plan.
An IFR flight plan should be sent to Eurocontrol, and is distributed to the IFR sector controllers enroute e.g. London Control. But if you file it for some low level which is "obviously" OCAS then you are not going to get a service from LC. I don't know what exactly happens here but I believe the way it breaks is this:
When you file a FP to Eurocontrol you get an airways squawk allocated. When you get airborne with this squawk, and it is picked up by one of the radars, the IFR FP pops up on their screens, and then when you call them up they know about you and send you off into CAS, to your filed level/route etc. This is what happens when you fly from say Bournemouth to Berlin at FL150. Very smooth and simple.
But if you never go up with that squawk (because you filed an IFR FP but you never picked up the airways departure clearance) that squawk will never be seen, and after 30 mins past EOBT the FP gets dumped.
If you depart on an IFR FP from an airport capable of airways departures e.g. Bournemouth and the FP says 2000ft then Bournemouth tower will look at this FP and will realise you are just an amateur playing low level (probably an IMCR training flight where the instructor got you to file an IFR FP for fun) and is not going to pass you the airways squawk because they can "obviously" see that you are not heading for any airspace run by LC. If incidentally you did later try to get that flight elevated to airways it won't work because it got dumped...
So what is the point of filing an IFR FP OCAS?
None really. No enroute unit is going to see it, and because it went to Eurocontrol it is likely (??) that even the destination ARO will not get it (because it gets dumped 30 mins past EOBT if the allocate squawk is never seen).
An airport operating the IFR rules properly (typically, one in Class D) will not let you depart VFR into sub-VFR conditions, so there you have to do an IFR departure, and the existence of an IFR FP will be irrelevant.
It's all a bit of a muddle and this is why people go to the huge hassle of getting the IR. Then one gets the whole-route clearance, everybody knows about you, etc.
The only advantage of filing a FP (VFR or IFR) OCAS is that somebody can dig it out if you crash somewhere, and go looking for you in hopefully roughly the right area. But, in the UK, somebody still has to raise the alarm - a FP is automatically closed even if you never arrive!!
Therefore, I never file flight plans for flights within the UK - cannot see the point.
Most instrument-capable UK pilots just depart VFR, and in Class G the transition to IFR is purely inside your mind, so no need to tell anybody. Just disappear in some cloud... If you are receiving a service then you need to advise them though, but in Class G ATC has no power to stop you anyway.
Going abroad, one has to file an IFR FP to enter any IMC or to fly IFR, but the IFR rules are different there anyway. You need the full IR, and an Eurocontrol flight plan, for any IFR flight.
C/Tower I have sent you a PM.
Is there actually any difference between filing IFR or VFR when outside controlled airspace and if not is there any point in filing at all (above the advantages of filing a normal VFR flight plan)?
An IFR flight plan should be sent to Eurocontrol, and is distributed to the IFR sector controllers enroute e.g. London Control. But if you file it for some low level which is "obviously" OCAS then you are not going to get a service from LC. I don't know what exactly happens here but I believe the way it breaks is this:
When you file a FP to Eurocontrol you get an airways squawk allocated. When you get airborne with this squawk, and it is picked up by one of the radars, the IFR FP pops up on their screens, and then when you call them up they know about you and send you off into CAS, to your filed level/route etc. This is what happens when you fly from say Bournemouth to Berlin at FL150. Very smooth and simple.
But if you never go up with that squawk (because you filed an IFR FP but you never picked up the airways departure clearance) that squawk will never be seen, and after 30 mins past EOBT the FP gets dumped.
If you depart on an IFR FP from an airport capable of airways departures e.g. Bournemouth and the FP says 2000ft then Bournemouth tower will look at this FP and will realise you are just an amateur playing low level (probably an IMCR training flight where the instructor got you to file an IFR FP for fun) and is not going to pass you the airways squawk because they can "obviously" see that you are not heading for any airspace run by LC. If incidentally you did later try to get that flight elevated to airways it won't work because it got dumped...
So what is the point of filing an IFR FP OCAS?
None really. No enroute unit is going to see it, and because it went to Eurocontrol it is likely (??) that even the destination ARO will not get it (because it gets dumped 30 mins past EOBT if the allocate squawk is never seen).
An airport operating the IFR rules properly (typically, one in Class D) will not let you depart VFR into sub-VFR conditions, so there you have to do an IFR departure, and the existence of an IFR FP will be irrelevant.
It's all a bit of a muddle and this is why people go to the huge hassle of getting the IR. Then one gets the whole-route clearance, everybody knows about you, etc.
The only advantage of filing a FP (VFR or IFR) OCAS is that somebody can dig it out if you crash somewhere, and go looking for you in hopefully roughly the right area. But, in the UK, somebody still has to raise the alarm - a FP is automatically closed even if you never arrive!!
Therefore, I never file flight plans for flights within the UK - cannot see the point.
Most instrument-capable UK pilots just depart VFR, and in Class G the transition to IFR is purely inside your mind, so no need to tell anybody. Just disappear in some cloud... If you are receiving a service then you need to advise them though, but in Class G ATC has no power to stop you anyway.
Going abroad, one has to file an IFR FP to enter any IMC or to fly IFR, but the IFR rules are different there anyway. You need the full IR, and an Eurocontrol flight plan, for any IFR flight.
C/Tower I have sent you a PM.
As you wish.
(actually I prefer to take advantage of tail winds, not found much advantage from a head wind yet...)
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An airport operating the IFR rules properly (typically, one in Class D) will not let you depart VFR into sub-VFR conditions, so there you have to do an IFR departure, and the existence of an IFR FP will be irrelevant.
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>If you are receiving a service then you need to advise them though, but in Class G ATC has no power to stop you anyway.<
No one has the power to stop anyone anywhere other than shooting you down :-)
Flying a jet I may be assigned FL330 but could fly through that on up. I may get the book thrown at me but no one can Physically stop you.
Not quite true regarding a RAS as you then become the RAC responsibility and have to comply with his instructions when flying IFR in class G with a RAS.
Bose
no one doubted what they thought you meant but questioned your innacurate terminology and references to IFR VFR VMC IMC which could confuse students or low time pilots. Hence its important that stuff we post is accurate or corrected clarified by others. None of us know everything me included so we should be only too happy to be corrected.
Pace
No one has the power to stop anyone anywhere other than shooting you down :-)
Flying a jet I may be assigned FL330 but could fly through that on up. I may get the book thrown at me but no one can Physically stop you.
Not quite true regarding a RAS as you then become the RAC responsibility and have to comply with his instructions when flying IFR in class G with a RAS.
Bose
no one doubted what they thought you meant but questioned your innacurate terminology and references to IFR VFR VMC IMC which could confuse students or low time pilots. Hence its important that stuff we post is accurate or corrected clarified by others. None of us know everything me included so we should be only too happy to be corrected.
Pace
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Don't be daft Pace you know exactly what I mean - assuming you have a PPL
In Class G nobody has the power to issue an IFR clearance, is what I obviously meant. And the UK permits IFR in Class G, and all flight in G does not need radio contact.
So, no need to tell anybody when you are about to drill a hole in a cloud.
It is the UK's water-tight separation between the CAS/airways traffic (the "professionals") and all the dross below that, that confuses the hell out of so many people.
Mind you, I am sure 99% of European "dross" would swap their yokes for UK's free for all
In Class G nobody has the power to issue an IFR clearance, is what I obviously meant. And the UK permits IFR in Class G, and all flight in G does not need radio contact.
So, no need to tell anybody when you are about to drill a hole in a cloud.
It is the UK's water-tight separation between the CAS/airways traffic (the "professionals") and all the dross below that, that confuses the hell out of so many people.
Mind you, I am sure 99% of European "dross" would swap their yokes for UK's free for all
Not quite true regarding a RAS as you then become the RAC responsibility and have to comply with his instructions when flying IFR in class G with a RAS.
The only time you are obliged to follow ATCOs' headings is when under Radar Control.
And yes, those of a suicidal mind who trust in the Big Sky theory may indeed quite legally fly IMC in Class G airspace without speaking to anyone.
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Beag's last comment brings us back to this thread: http://www.pprune.org/private-flying...eparation.html
Which I take no further part in, to the relief of some
Which I take no further part in, to the relief of some
Fly Conventional Gear
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C/Tower I have sent you a PM.
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Beagle
As you said you are "expected" to follow instructions from the RAC which is different from doing what you want failure to do so would mean that the service would be terminated.
The subtle reason is that in a FIS you are responsible for you own seperation In RAS the controller takes on that responsibility. Failure to follow his instructions would mean that he would be unable to be responsible for you.
The only difference is that in CAS failure to comply with an instruction could lead to a prosecution failure to comply with a RAS would mean termination of that service. But realistically you are expected to follow both so not quite the do as you want in class G and that was what I was trying to clarify. You can but dont expect a RAS if you do.
Pace
As you said you are "expected" to follow instructions from the RAC which is different from doing what you want failure to do so would mean that the service would be terminated.
The subtle reason is that in a FIS you are responsible for you own seperation In RAS the controller takes on that responsibility. Failure to follow his instructions would mean that he would be unable to be responsible for you.
The only difference is that in CAS failure to comply with an instruction could lead to a prosecution failure to comply with a RAS would mean termination of that service. But realistically you are expected to follow both so not quite the do as you want in class G and that was what I was trying to clarify. You can but dont expect a RAS if you do.
Pace
The subtle reason is that in a FIS you are responsible for you own seperation In RAS the controller takes on that responsibility. Failure to follow his instructions would mean that he would be unable to be responsible for you.
RIS is often a lot more appropriate for brief IMC excursions in Class G - provided that you have the necessary level of mental skill, you can then make your own decisions on avoidance action based on the controller's information, whereas under a RAS the controller will try to ensure a 5nm/3000ft separation against other traffic and provide advice accordingly.
Those who rely upon RAS under IFR in Class G even when in VMC, particularly airline pilots flying to aerodromes outside CAS, might find themselves having to work quite hard if the controller is unable to provide more than a RIS due to traffic density. Although it is possible, of course, that the controller may ask other traffic to fly as requested for co-ordination purposes.
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I agree, I think in thirty odd years I've only ever requested RAS once and that was because it was offered as an upgrade from RIS by a military controller. A pilot who asks for RAS in Class G may regret it shortly afterwards. However, he may well not get that type of service because that really does push up a controller's workload. He may also be under no remit to provide it in any case, outside CAS.