Filing IFR for flight outside of controlled airspace?

[IO540]

Thank you for the time you took to type up that great explanation, pprune Radar

I think perhaps the two greatest issues facing IFR/airways pilots are

1) Ensuring that their flight is elevated to the airways ASAP - I have tended to think that filing for FL100+ does this but it looks like it is more complex.

2) If going to an airport OCAS, getting dropped out of CAS too early. AIUI, there is no solution to this.

AFPEx will (I presume .. never having had to do one) cope with the submission of a Change message (CHG), but that assumes you had it available. NATS also publishes the contact details for their FPRSA positions, so a call to them can often get your change input quickly if needed.

Sure it will - AFPEx does everything including making the tea - but there is no practical way to access it from the cockpit while airborne. I do have a primitive internet access via a satellite phone (for weather data, mainly) but the AFPEx terminal application is a 5MB download every time it is started up, and this is completely infeasible over anything short of a massively expensive "bizjet-level" DSL satellite data connection.

One bizzare solution would be to use the satellite phone to phone up somebody and get them to log onto the system and send out the message.

By "FPRSA positions" do you mean the two public IFPS desk numbers in Brussels? I do have those. A lot of people thought they were confidential but they are not.

[PPRuNe Radar]

By "FPRSA positions" do you mean the two public IFPS desk numbers in Brussels? I do have those. A lot of people thought they were confidential but they are not.

No, I meant the UK ones. You can contact them through the Parent ATSU using the following:

London Heathrow
Tel [phone] / 2616
Fax [phone] / 2618

Manchester
Tel [phone] / 5500
Fax [phone]

Scottish ACC
Tel[phone]
Fax [phone]

[Pace]

PPruneradar

I think you will find that Manchester are no more as called them a couple of weeks back and was told it was all through London now.

Pace

[Fright Level]

I've always had problems filing /Y or /Z. When flying VFR first to join controlled airspace, London have failed to find my plan in the system every time and when wishing to leave controlled airspace (shortcut from DVR to Fairoaks via BIG without having to route via the whole south coast IFR), London have been quite short and dumped me out of controlled airspace over the Kent coast rather than handle me IFR toward Biggin then a radar info service from Farnborough (which is what I wanted).

Last Sunday I filed IFR from Plymouth to Fairoaks, mainly to stay on top in 100km viz rather than 2400 feet in bumpy CU and <10km below the TMA. Without radar, Plymouth suggested a VFR departure to "pick up a joining clearance from Exeter". Despite having a print out of my "OK" flight plan, Exeter, London, Solent nor Bournemouth could find me in the system so approaching SAM, I gave up and stayed clear of CAS.

The system works with controlled airspace and/or SIDs/STARs at both ends but trying to cobble together an IFR clearance without it seems to be a big hassle.

I've got the rating and Class A airspace is safer. My tax money pays for it, my AUW <2000kgs means there is no extra cost, so I'd rather use it. My experience of making it work is somewhat different.

[IO540]

One should never file Y or Z in the UK.

IMHO, one should never file Y or Z in any other country either, unless CFMU actually chucks out the flight plan (which it does for some countries) with the "airport not having IFR procedures" message.

The problem with filing an IFR flight with any VFR section in it is that ATC are entitled (during the VFR section) to treat you as VFR traffic, and just tell you to report at such and such VRP, or wash their hands of you totally. So you need to be prepared, with current VFR charts and airport VFR plates, a VFR GPS, etc. And of course the length of the VFR segment is up to them - regardless of which VFR-IFR transition you filed on the flight plan.

[Fright Level]

One should never file Y or Z in the UK

The problem with Fairoaks is it shares Farnborough's standard routings. To get to near France via DVR these are a right pain routing GWC, SFD, LYD then DVR whereas I'm happy with a short VFR hop to BIG where I can join their standard route to DET-DVR and vv. IFR out of Fairoaks to Le Touquet etc adds 80nm to the route for no reason whatsoever if I'm happy with a VFR service through the "alley" to BIG.

/Y or /Z is the proper way for me to offer that flexibility yet it doesn't seem to work!

[Pace]

Frightlevel

I think you mean your weight is 1999KG? Yes prepared to be dumped out of airways as you put it but plan to control the descent so that you stay in CAS as long as possible and pref until you can get a RAS or two way with your destination field.

Never had a problem joining CAS at some point ahead and being turned away because there was no plan accepted and in the system.

I usually just file it IFR DCT XYZ with an estimated time for XYZ then pick up the clearance through a military controller or failing that with London info Exit point is usually DCT too

Remember you can fly IFR rules outside of controlled airspace even if you are climbing or descending for the whole portion so just file IFR for the whole route. Maybe they dont know what YZ means or the computers are having a brain storm dealing with such complicated stuff so just IFR keep it simple

Pace

[S-Works]

I agree with Pace, I never file anything but I on my plans and never have a problem getting them accepted and I fly out of a private strip.

I have been dumped out of the bottom of CAS a few times but recently have started to refuse the descent until I am ready and not had problems with that. If it is a nice VFR day then I don't mind but when it's like soup I need to be close enough to home to know if a VFR approach is possible or a diversion is needed and that is much easier when still in the IFR system.

[PPRuNe Radar]

I've got the rating and Class A airspace is safer. My tax money pays for it,

Actually, not one iota of your tax payer money goes towards it ... user pays, as decreed by the Economic Regulation Group of the CAA.

[Fright Level]

Actually, not one iota of your tax payer money goes towards it

Not true.

Apart from the billions of pounds worth of infrastructure inherited by NATS when it was privatised. They didn't build the ATC system from scratch, my tax pounds gave them a huge leg up ;-)

The government still owns 49% of NATS and was given £65 million of my money after Sept 11th. What of the current £1bn investment programme, isn't some of that funded from the government purse?

[JIMBO01]

Can anyone just answer the question??

Honestly, can anyone just answer this question. What do you file if flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace? If departing a class D airfield IFR but OCAS, what on earth do you file? VFR or IFR? Simple!!

[Johnm]

If departing IFR from a class d aerodrome file IFR

[Talkdownman]

Originally Posted by JIMBO01

What do you file if flying IFR in uncontrolled airspace? If departing a class D airfield IFR but OCAS, what on earth do you file? VFR or IFR? Simple!!

Yes, simple. VFR does not equal IFR. IFR = IFR.
If this is UK airspace I suggest that whilst you are 'on earth' that you have a read of ENR 1.10 FLIGHT PLANNING.