Improve Light A/C Separation
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Please note the CAA cannot support in any way a product which is not a certified installed item - they have no authority over such.
Expecting the CAA to back say FLARM (a non certified product designed for mostly DIY installations, usually in the "portable" class) is a bit like expecting ATC to give you a clearance in Class G.
The only way to push a product like FLARM in the current UK regime would be appropriate publicity in all the various places, plus pilot shops selling it cheaply.
Expecting the CAA to back say FLARM (a non certified product designed for mostly DIY installations, usually in the "portable" class) is a bit like expecting ATC to give you a clearance in Class G.
The only way to push a product like FLARM in the current UK regime would be appropriate publicity in all the various places, plus pilot shops selling it cheaply.
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>OK - and I trust you expressed in detail those opinions to the CAA consulation which finished in May? But please bear in mind you are criticising the glider community for something which solely contradicts your opinions, and which I believe is actually allowable by powered aircraft. What part of IMC training is relevant to collision avoidance? And would be applicable to the glider pilot over and above whatever training the BGA enforce?<
NigelOnDraft
I am not criticising the glider community one bit but I am critical of any situation which allows two aircraft to be in IMC conditions where they have no possible way of knowing whether they are both going to collide.
Normally there are rules to avoid such a conflict ie flying quadrantel levels so that if you have one aircraft going in a particular direction he / she has seperation from another aircraft going in another direction.
But no with gliders they cannot maintain a level whilst IMC so that safety rule is out of the window.
While in class G airspace we try to use a radar service so that again flying blind someone else can point out a possible conflict and avoid it for you.
Not so with gliders as they use some obscure glider frequency who no one else listens to.
As for training to flying in cloud it is not just about being able to scan instruments and manouver accurately in cloud but it is also about being situationally aware and being in a position to know where your aircraft is but communicating that to others. Others who are equally blind having the confidence that you are where you should be and to the tolerances as laid out in IFR flying.
Not so with gliders as they can be anywhere in cloud to no tolerances whatsoever. If you cannot see this arguement then I dont know what to say other than by exercising your rights to freedom you are not flying to the standards and tolerances expected in IMC flight and as such are endangering the lives of others.
I am only talking about flight in IMC conditions where the rule of SEE AND BE SEEN do not exist.
If you cannot be seen in other ways ie radar or flying to standards and levels that the rest of us are supposed to then you shouldnt be there.
I dont care if your a balloon, microlight, glider, twin or Jet.
And no IFR traffic often operates in other airspace other than ABC including 737s and A320s
Mid-Air Collision of Glider and Jet near Reno: ASG-29 vs. Hawker XP800 (by Jeremy Zawodny)
This accident wasnt even in IMC imagine the repercussions of a 737 in cloud and then we would all find controlled airspace almost everywhere.
NigelOnDraft
I am not criticising the glider community one bit but I am critical of any situation which allows two aircraft to be in IMC conditions where they have no possible way of knowing whether they are both going to collide.
Normally there are rules to avoid such a conflict ie flying quadrantel levels so that if you have one aircraft going in a particular direction he / she has seperation from another aircraft going in another direction.
But no with gliders they cannot maintain a level whilst IMC so that safety rule is out of the window.
While in class G airspace we try to use a radar service so that again flying blind someone else can point out a possible conflict and avoid it for you.
Not so with gliders as they use some obscure glider frequency who no one else listens to.
As for training to flying in cloud it is not just about being able to scan instruments and manouver accurately in cloud but it is also about being situationally aware and being in a position to know where your aircraft is but communicating that to others. Others who are equally blind having the confidence that you are where you should be and to the tolerances as laid out in IFR flying.
Not so with gliders as they can be anywhere in cloud to no tolerances whatsoever. If you cannot see this arguement then I dont know what to say other than by exercising your rights to freedom you are not flying to the standards and tolerances expected in IMC flight and as such are endangering the lives of others.
I am only talking about flight in IMC conditions where the rule of SEE AND BE SEEN do not exist.
If you cannot be seen in other ways ie radar or flying to standards and levels that the rest of us are supposed to then you shouldnt be there.
I dont care if your a balloon, microlight, glider, twin or Jet.
And no IFR traffic often operates in other airspace other than ABC including 737s and A320s
Mid-Air Collision of Glider and Jet near Reno: ASG-29 vs. Hawker XP800 (by Jeremy Zawodny)
This accident wasnt even in IMC imagine the repercussions of a 737 in cloud and then we would all find controlled airspace almost everywhere.
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Sep 2008 at 12:00.
Pace
When you set the tolerances and standards, then you may expect others to respect them. Until then, you are responsible for operating safely with the existing situation, at risk levels you are prepared to accept.
Others have stated they are content to fly fast aircraft in IMC in the open FIR for reasons of cost and convenience, although flight under full control and segregation is available. Their choice.
Glider pilots in IMC are aware of their position very accurately, as otherwise they would risk infringing controlled airspace. They do communicate with others who are the greatest risk to themselves, and that communication is on a known and published frequency (although apparently you were unaware of that).
Before continuing to pursue what appears to be an obsession with clearly limited knowledge of the facts, please find out what you are talking about, as the gliding community on its part does.
When you set the tolerances and standards, then you may expect others to respect them. Until then, you are responsible for operating safely with the existing situation, at risk levels you are prepared to accept.
Others have stated they are content to fly fast aircraft in IMC in the open FIR for reasons of cost and convenience, although flight under full control and segregation is available. Their choice.
Glider pilots in IMC are aware of their position very accurately, as otherwise they would risk infringing controlled airspace. They do communicate with others who are the greatest risk to themselves, and that communication is on a known and published frequency (although apparently you were unaware of that).
Before continuing to pursue what appears to be an obsession with clearly limited knowledge of the facts, please find out what you are talking about, as the gliding community on its part does.
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Glider pilots in IMC are aware of their position very accurately, as otherwise they would risk infringing controlled airspace. They do communicate with others who are the greatest risk to themselves, and that communication is on a known and published frequency (although apparently you were unaware of that).
Before continuing to pursue what appears to be an obsession with clearly limited knowledge of the facts, please find out what you are talking about, as the gliding community on its part does.
Before continuing to pursue what appears to be an obsession with clearly limited knowledge of the facts, please find out what you are talking about, as the gliding community on its part does.
My advice to a cloud flying glider would be at a minimum to dial into the nearest LARS controller and ask for a RIS or report your position using a FIS. That way GA traffic with the same controller has a cat-in-hells chance of avoiding you and you the GA traffic. If the worst ever happens - a glider hits an airbus - you can bet that things will change for the worse for everyone.
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Fitter2
I suggest you educate yourself on other users of airspace other than gliders which seems to be your obsession as your knowledge of IFR traffic and airspace and who uses that airspace is sadly lacking as demonstrated in your earlier posts and that in itself worries me should I ever meet you in the air.
Yes I dont know a lot about gliding but certain things I have learnt here worry me
Pace
I suggest you educate yourself on other users of airspace other than gliders which seems to be your obsession as your knowledge of IFR traffic and airspace and who uses that airspace is sadly lacking as demonstrated in your earlier posts and that in itself worries me should I ever meet you in the air.
Yes I dont know a lot about gliding but certain things I have learnt here worry me
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Sep 2008 at 13:21.
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Glider pilots in IMC are aware of their position very accurately, as otherwise they would risk infringing controlled airspace. They do communicate with others who are the greatest risk to themselves, and that communication is on a known and published frequency (although apparently you were unaware of that).
1. The reality is many powered aircraft do not have two radios. Their radio is therefore not going to be tuned to the glider frequency. Even if they do have two radios it may not be convenient to have box 2 always tuned to the glider frequency.
2. Isnt there a shared responsibility? In the same way you are asking powered aircraft to listen out on the glider frequency, shouldn’t we expect gliders to listen out on the local frequency. For example if I was operating near Bembridge more than likely I would be listening out for other traffic reports on the Bembridge frequency.
3. How do your position reports work exactly? You are a solo cross country glider for discussion, how often do you report your position, what do you do when you change altitude, which presumably you do frequently, and how do you exactly report your position.
4. Subject to your reply to 3 how do you expect powered traffic to interpolate your position reports? Have regard that we might well be on a 100 nm leg and not necessarily familiar with many of the land marks along the leg.
This debate has to understand the issues from both parties perspective otherwise it ends up becoming polarised into I’m right, you are wrong.
It is no good arguing that every powered aircraft should know precisely where every glider is when it enters IMC any more or less than every powered aircraft should know where every other powered aircraft is.
The fact of the matter is we have evolved a set of rules applicable to open FIR that were intended to enable everyone to “enjoy” the airspace and yet do so as safely as possible. The rules I suspect come from an era when transponders, FLARM, radar etc were the exception not the norm. For that reason we relied on see and avoid. However, we realised that for see and avoid to work the traffic shouldn’t be moving too quickly, so we introduced a speed cap. For operations in IMC we recognised see and avoid had no chance so we introduced some rules to try and separate the traffic based on height and direction. We also have some “rules” concerned with sound airmanship such as what we do when following line features, joining the circuit or crossing an IAP. I suspect we recognised that gliders often could not comply with these rules so we notified everyone of their areas of activity. For example I guess gliders ignore the line feature rules - if you are soaring along a ridge line, you are not interested in which side the line feature is relative to you, only where the thermals are relative to you.
I think since these basic rules were introduced a few things have changed. The traffic has got faster. Gliders are able to travel much further afield. More aircraft and gliders are willing to fly in IMC. In an effort to deal with these changes we have sort to introduce other means of separating traffic which are not solely reliant on see and avoid.
Its no good complaining about Citations flying into Bembridge because all that achieves is a polarisation of the debate. The Citation pilot may argue in exactly the same way as you that he doesn’t want you pi%%ing around in his airspace in your micky mouse glider as much as you wish he bu&&ered off to Gatwick and caught the bus from there.
The debate must focus on whether the existing arrangements are adequate given the changes I have mentioned in the way the airspace is used and if they are not what we ALL can do to improve the situation.
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glider pilots who play about in IMC and only speak to one another are similar to cyclists who use the main dual carraigeway in the rush hour in lieu of the red cycle lane ...............mad
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>That is fine, but it seems to be that gliders only communicate with other gliders. I am by no means anti glider - but when I fly in IMC I make all possible attempts to let other airspace users know where I am, by using a RIS. Gliders talk to each other on one frequency, which "we" may not be listening to as we have Com1 dialled into a RIS and Com2 on 121.5 or the next enroute frequency. <
Englishal
Very valid point! we respect each other flying IMC in G airspace. I am flying N/W at FL85 you are flying S/E at FL75 we are both on radar transponding and talking to a radar controller and both flying blind in IMC.
The Glider should at least talk to the radar controller but what would that call be? " Glider XYZ operating above the village of somewhere or probably within a five mile radius. I am presently passing through FL90 descending as I have no lift. I may be at FL70 or anywahere in between. There again if I get some lift I maybe back up at FL90 or higher your guess is as good as mine. As I dont have a transponder like the other guys you wont have a clue what level I am at anyway so hope you dont hit me. Pull the trigger enough times and maybe you might"
What is the point of the rest of us flying quadrantle rules to give each other seperation with that in mind?
Pace
Englishal
Very valid point! we respect each other flying IMC in G airspace. I am flying N/W at FL85 you are flying S/E at FL75 we are both on radar transponding and talking to a radar controller and both flying blind in IMC.
The Glider should at least talk to the radar controller but what would that call be? " Glider XYZ operating above the village of somewhere or probably within a five mile radius. I am presently passing through FL90 descending as I have no lift. I may be at FL70 or anywahere in between. There again if I get some lift I maybe back up at FL90 or higher your guess is as good as mine. As I dont have a transponder like the other guys you wont have a clue what level I am at anyway so hope you dont hit me. Pull the trigger enough times and maybe you might"
What is the point of the rest of us flying quadrantle rules to give each other seperation with that in mind?
Pace
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The Gliders in IMC debate has been going on for many years. I started flying power in 1991 and remember the debate back then. Those that choose to fly in IMC are qualified and know the risks (both power and non power). In many respects the glider pilots honour the threat better than GA. A Glider pilot has a good chance of surviving a mid air, most GA pilots do not.
I regularly see Notams about gliding events. Perhaps it is worth adding to the Notam that large numbers of gliders may be IMC in the areas mentioned. Mr squeasyjet would then have to take the threat more seriously and might decide to use CAS.
Rod1
I regularly see Notams about gliding events. Perhaps it is worth adding to the Notam that large numbers of gliders may be IMC in the areas mentioned. Mr squeasyjet would then have to take the threat more seriously and might decide to use CAS.
Rod1
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>I regularly see Notams about gliding events. Perhaps it is worth adding to the Notam that large numbers of gliders may be IMC in the areas mentioned. Mr squeasyjet would then have to take the threat more seriously and might decide to use CAS.<
Rod1
A few years ago a glider was allowed to cross an airway ie CAS while the IMC rated Pilot was not. Is that still the case?
Pace
Rod1
A few years ago a glider was allowed to cross an airway ie CAS while the IMC rated Pilot was not. Is that still the case?
Pace
It is over 10 years since the permission for gliders to cross airways in VMC was withdrawn (although I do not believe there had ever been an airprox reported).
I have reviewed my comments, and cannot find any indication that I do not understand how power IMC traffic operates.
I am very aware of the areas of open FIR close to regional airports used for climbout to controlled airspace, and while it might not be illegal to fly a glider in IMC there it would not be sensible.
I also know a substantial number of current ATPL holders, some whom have a day job flying an Airbus, and who regularly cloud fly in gliders when appropriate and in their view safe. I suspect they consider themselves neither mad nor ignorant, although they are probably too sensible to enter this discussion.
I have reviewed my comments, and cannot find any indication that I do not understand how power IMC traffic operates.
I am very aware of the areas of open FIR close to regional airports used for climbout to controlled airspace, and while it might not be illegal to fly a glider in IMC there it would not be sensible.
I also know a substantial number of current ATPL holders, some whom have a day job flying an Airbus, and who regularly cloud fly in gliders when appropriate and in their view safe. I suspect they consider themselves neither mad nor ignorant, although they are probably too sensible to enter this discussion.
Last edited by Fitter2; 2nd Sep 2008 at 15:32. Reason: Dyslexic fingers again
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So in my last post (which due to its length) a question I asked may have been missed.
Could one of our glider pilots please set out exactly how the blind calls work.
What is the position report you give,
Do you say anything about the block altitude you will be working within,
How often do you make the calls when on route and how often do you up date your position,
If you are out of sight of the surface do you base your position on a moving map or do you use some other method.
Could one of our glider pilots please set out exactly how the blind calls work.
What is the position report you give,
Do you say anything about the block altitude you will be working within,
How often do you make the calls when on route and how often do you up date your position,
If you are out of sight of the surface do you base your position on a moving map or do you use some other method.
In VMC regular position calls are not given - if we all did that for each change of heading (we follow the energy in the air) then any general frequency would be swamped on a reasonable soaring day.
In IMC a call is given before entering cloud giving:
- Callsign
- 'Entering cloud at' a position relative to a prominent named feature on the 1:500,000 chart
- Height ASL.
Subsequently calls are given about every 500 ft change in height, more frequently if two gliders are sharing the same cloud to maintain vertical separation.
A further 'clear of cloud' call is given when in VMC.
Regarding listening watch, gliders have only one COM radio, and in IMC the highest risk is from another glider, and so the common glider cloud flying frequency (130.400) is used. I suspect using another flight information area frequency would not be welcome, and given the areas where several different possible frequencies exist, no guarantee that two gliders wishing to use the same cloud would find themselves on the same frequency.
In IMC a call is given before entering cloud giving:
- Callsign
- 'Entering cloud at' a position relative to a prominent named feature on the 1:500,000 chart
- Height ASL.
Subsequently calls are given about every 500 ft change in height, more frequently if two gliders are sharing the same cloud to maintain vertical separation.
A further 'clear of cloud' call is given when in VMC.
Regarding listening watch, gliders have only one COM radio, and in IMC the highest risk is from another glider, and so the common glider cloud flying frequency (130.400) is used. I suspect using another flight information area frequency would not be welcome, and given the areas where several different possible frequencies exist, no guarantee that two gliders wishing to use the same cloud would find themselves on the same frequency.
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The earlier suggestion that glider pilots give a call to the appropriate ATC Radar unit, so they can warn other pilots of their presence, and then change back to "the cloud flying" frequency, appears to have been ignored.
Not sure why this, perhaps someone could enlighten the rest of us if glider pilots are capable of doing this. If so is there an objection to helping out everyone else in this small way?
Not sure why this, perhaps someone could enlighten the rest of us if glider pilots are capable of doing this. If so is there an objection to helping out everyone else in this small way?
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Fitter2, are you a qualified pilot (your profile gives no clue)?
Aircraft routeing south of Salisbury Plain, for example from the Cardiff area, would call Bournemouth and/or Southampton.
Aircraft routeing south of Salisbury Plain, for example from the Cardiff area, would call Bournemouth and/or Southampton.
My point. There are least two frequencies. Not counting Salisbury Military, if a NOTAMED exercise is being coordinated.
And a deeper look into some of my posts (available on my published profile) would give further information regarding my flying (and other)background. If that's relevant to a discussion of the facts
And a deeper look into some of my posts (available on my published profile) would give further information regarding my flying (and other)background. If that's relevant to a discussion of the facts
Last edited by Fitter2; 2nd Sep 2008 at 18:42. Reason: Additional information
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How do you think other traffic gets by, on a daily basis?
Call one of them; if unsure, call the unit you are closest to. ATCOs of adjacent units do talk to each other and pass information by landline. Sometimes they are even co-located. If an ATCO thinks you would be better off passing your message to someone else, he will tell you.
Surely all glider pilots are taught this from an early age? It's pretty basic stuff.
Call one of them; if unsure, call the unit you are closest to. ATCOs of adjacent units do talk to each other and pass information by landline. Sometimes they are even co-located. If an ATCO thinks you would be better off passing your message to someone else, he will tell you.
Surely all glider pilots are taught this from an early age? It's pretty basic stuff.
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Fitter2
Thank you.
Can you give me an idea how much cloud flying takes place (maybe a guestimate of the number of pilots who would fly in cloud on a good soaring day) and how long a glider will typically spend in cloud.
How common are long cross country flights in an out of cloud?
I am actually really grateful to understand better how the cross country aspect of glider flight works - I know very little about it, and without an understanding I dont see how we can properly discuss how we might make such operations safer (if at at all possible).
Thank you.
Can you give me an idea how much cloud flying takes place (maybe a guestimate of the number of pilots who would fly in cloud on a good soaring day) and how long a glider will typically spend in cloud.
How common are long cross country flights in an out of cloud?
I am actually really grateful to understand better how the cross country aspect of glider flight works - I know very little about it, and without an understanding I dont see how we can properly discuss how we might make such operations safer (if at at all possible).