Doncaster Sheffield - New Class D Airspace
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The trouble is that they firstly decide which bit of uncontrolled airspace it is which they wish to "colonise," then they move in to it, and then and only then, they say it is simply not safe unless it becomes controlled...
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Alternatively the 737's can stick to airfields in CAS.
What will really happen, if you project your 'master plan', is that every airfield with civil air transport movements will be given controlled airspace.
That's what you wanted ... right ??
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I think you know what I meant.
My masterplan would work just fine. EGCN is of little use to anyone but Peel. Even the airlines aren't terribly keen on the place.
I have no beef with Peel's controllers as they are just fine and the CAS isn't much of an issue to me but the same basic argument comes around - new airport opens up in Class G, chucks its weight around and gets CAS on the back of a dozen 737 bucket and spade movements a day at most.
(God knows how the RAF ever managed to fly around safely with all those nuclear bombs strapped to Vulcans )
Most of us around here would dearly love EGCN to develop into a regional hub, with business and other flights connecting me to places that I want to be, but unless I want to go to Wroclow or Alicante it's of no interest to me and with the recent reduction in flights and an apparent £1m a month loss, closure looks more likely than expansion.
If Peel wanted to make it attractive to GA the first thing that they could do is to reduce the 1 mile (yes that's 1 mile) walk from the car park to the GA apron, each way. The facility is potentially fabulous but the management are either useless or have another agenda.
My masterplan would work just fine. EGCN is of little use to anyone but Peel. Even the airlines aren't terribly keen on the place.
I have no beef with Peel's controllers as they are just fine and the CAS isn't much of an issue to me but the same basic argument comes around - new airport opens up in Class G, chucks its weight around and gets CAS on the back of a dozen 737 bucket and spade movements a day at most.
(God knows how the RAF ever managed to fly around safely with all those nuclear bombs strapped to Vulcans )
Most of us around here would dearly love EGCN to develop into a regional hub, with business and other flights connecting me to places that I want to be, but unless I want to go to Wroclow or Alicante it's of no interest to me and with the recent reduction in flights and an apparent £1m a month loss, closure looks more likely than expansion.
If Peel wanted to make it attractive to GA the first thing that they could do is to reduce the 1 mile (yes that's 1 mile) walk from the car park to the GA apron, each way. The facility is potentially fabulous but the management are either useless or have another agenda.
Avoid imitations
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(God knows how the RAF ever managed to fly around safely with all those nuclear bombs strapped to Vulcans )
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flybymike:
That's not the way it works nowadays, at least for UK operators. They're expected by the CAA to conduct a risk assessment before starting a new service to an airport outside CAS, and that assessment has to demonstrate that the risk level is acceptable. Horses and stable doors for existing services, certainly, but I also know of at least one regional airport which has done a generic risk assessment for commercial ops and makes that assessment available to any new operators planning to start services there.
NS
The trouble is that they firstly decide which bit of uncontrolled airspace it is which they wish to "colonise," then they move in to it, and then and only then, they say it is simply not safe unless it becomes controlled...
NS
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We are walking on a glass roof. The reason why? Because government have always been opposed to the freedom and lack of control they hold over supposedly rich people flying their extravagent personal aircraft around the skies.
I can remember not that long ago being told on a commercial flight not to take photos out of the window over Italy. The eye in the sky.
Since 9/11 we have lost so many freedoms in the name of freedom. Take the recent reports on the threat of GA by Lord Carlisle.
200 passenegers in a commercial airline can be controlled and governments will look for any excuse to curtail those freedoms that we now hold.
The headline grabbing potential of an airline being downed by an unseen microlight, glider, balloon is huge just adds to the fodder and justification of government wishing to curtail our activities more and more.
We had a long thread mainly involving gliders without transponders. We can shout about our freedoms as much as possible but the only real defence is to plug the holes that exist and hence the arguements that government will make before they close them for us.
Has no one noticed what a big brother state we have become how government will use green or security issues to force more control onto our backs in every walk of life.
I am sure government would love all airtravel to be fed through security airports and onto commercial airlines. To have the whole of the UK as one big control zone and to have small areas of recreational flight zones. They will grab at any excuse to move in that direction in the name of safety or security.
Pace
I can remember not that long ago being told on a commercial flight not to take photos out of the window over Italy. The eye in the sky.
Since 9/11 we have lost so many freedoms in the name of freedom. Take the recent reports on the threat of GA by Lord Carlisle.
200 passenegers in a commercial airline can be controlled and governments will look for any excuse to curtail those freedoms that we now hold.
The headline grabbing potential of an airline being downed by an unseen microlight, glider, balloon is huge just adds to the fodder and justification of government wishing to curtail our activities more and more.
We had a long thread mainly involving gliders without transponders. We can shout about our freedoms as much as possible but the only real defence is to plug the holes that exist and hence the arguements that government will make before they close them for us.
Has no one noticed what a big brother state we have become how government will use green or security issues to force more control onto our backs in every walk of life.
I am sure government would love all airtravel to be fed through security airports and onto commercial airlines. To have the whole of the UK as one big control zone and to have small areas of recreational flight zones. They will grab at any excuse to move in that direction in the name of safety or security.
Pace
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....or they might want to align the UK with the rest of the world airspace wise?
And: Fighting controlled airspace AND transponder carriage in the UK is the equivalent of kneecapping yourselves IMHO.
...rock...crawl...under....
And: Fighting controlled airspace AND transponder carriage in the UK is the equivalent of kneecapping yourselves IMHO.
...rock...crawl...under....
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Send your complaints about Doncaster Sheffield's Class D airspace to the CAA-DAP, 45 Kingsway, London. It will be under review for about a year after implementation, and it is not unknown for new CA to be reduced subsequently if it is not used sufficiantly.
DSA is often completely empty; it can be a "ghost aerordrome". Personally I do not think that the Class D airspace provided is appropriate, and the way to deal with this if you feel the same is let DAP know.
No complaints about the controllers, however. They have always been helpful and courteous.
DSA is often completely empty; it can be a "ghost aerordrome". Personally I do not think that the Class D airspace provided is appropriate, and the way to deal with this if you feel the same is let DAP know.
No complaints about the controllers, however. They have always been helpful and courteous.
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I said:
and I've just found the answer. No it wasn't the MoD, it was the CAA, who decided there was no justification for the eastern CTAs so didn't approve them. Full details here. Makes interesting reading, particularly for those among you who think the CAA just rubber-stamps any application for extension of CAS.
NS
I would be interested to know how that will be achieved for IFR inbounds from the east. The original proposal had a big chunk of CTA below Y70/L603, going down to FL75. The CAS as implemented omits this, meaning that aircraft will have to be kept at a minimum of FL110 until they're only 6nm from the airfield. I can't see how you can vector these inbounds on to the r/w 20 ILS from that position. It certainly won't allow for continuous descent approaches. Is the plan to vector them through the overhead then right hand downwind for 20? And was the eastern CTA ditched because of MoD opposition?
NS
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As you say, quite interesting reading.
I will be even more interested to see whether the expected increase in "Summer" traffic movements from a current two and a half thousand or so, to the projected 12 and a half thousand by 2014 actually occurs. The airlines are dropping like flies at the moment.
And if it the projections do not come to pass, will they give us back the class G?
I will be even more interested to see whether the expected increase in "Summer" traffic movements from a current two and a half thousand or so, to the projected 12 and a half thousand by 2014 actually occurs. The airlines are dropping like flies at the moment.
And if it the projections do not come to pass, will they give us back the class G?
Avoid imitations
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With XL having gone to the wall, perhaps Thomson will be a bit more busy very soon?
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If Peel wanted to make it attractive to GA the first thing that they could do is to reduce the 1 mile (yes that's 1 mile) walk from the car park to the GA apron, each way.
J
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Flew through their overhead today west-east. No problem and very accomodating. Was on frequency for about 15mins, only 1 commercial flight in that time.
Incidentally, there were 5 other GA pilots on frequency during that same period. Their R/T skills were diabolical and they deserve to have their radio licenses torn up and burnt.
Incidentally, there were 5 other GA pilots on frequency during that same period. Their R/T skills were diabolical and they deserve to have their radio licenses torn up and burnt.
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Don't be too harsh Shunter, remember that there are busy training airfields at either end of the new CTR. There will be lots of studes, and lots of studes who are flying for the first time in CAS.
So far so good with Donny's controllers but the frequency seems pretty busy now and I'm wondering how many more CAT movements they will need before they think hard about giving such easy access.
As an example I was happily doing PFL's in the busy CAS just on the edge of the ATZ earlier this week, with but as soon as an Airbus came in the controller's juggling skills came in to play. I hope that they keep up the current service levels.
So far so good with Donny's controllers but the frequency seems pretty busy now and I'm wondering how many more CAT movements they will need before they think hard about giving such easy access.
As an example I was happily doing PFL's in the busy CAS just on the edge of the ATZ earlier this week, with but as soon as an Airbus came in the controller's juggling skills came in to play. I hope that they keep up the current service levels.
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Indeed, it depends how you are judging them as having diabolical radio skills, i.e. they dont know what to say? Werent sticking to the letter of the CAP law? talking complete rubbish?
As elton says you are also in the middle of a busy training area (we were all bumbling student PPLs at one point!) and yesterday there were also gliders operating the controllers were trying to make sure aircraft were informed of as typically they dont have radios.
J.
As elton says you are also in the middle of a busy training area (we were all bumbling student PPLs at one point!) and yesterday there were also gliders operating the controllers were trying to make sure aircraft were informed of as typically they dont have radios.
J.
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It's not students I have a problem with. They're fairly easy to ID on the radio and they get my full support. They're occasionally slow, but the almost religious adherence to CAP413 makes them stand out, along with the student prefix of course. Good on 'em, they'll speed up with experience and wonder why they ever had a problem with it.
It's people who've clearly been flying for donkeys' years, never needed a radio when they started and have just "blagged it" in the age of Class D breeding farms, never bothering to sharpen their skills to suit. The clues are in the source/destination fields (unlicensed strips) and aircraft types (mostly permits). I just don't think there's any excuse for experienced pilots to be so crap on the radio. It's lameness where there need be none. These guys know how to fly, they're not strapped for mental capacity in the cockpit, but they still tie up frequencies for painful amounts of time.
Personally I classify it in the same annoyance bracket at the same experienced pilots who don't know the difference between FIS/RIS/RAS/RCS etc.; clearly defined services which we're about to lose because of people being too damn feckin' lazy to learn how simple air traffic services work. But that's another discussion.
It's people who've clearly been flying for donkeys' years, never needed a radio when they started and have just "blagged it" in the age of Class D breeding farms, never bothering to sharpen their skills to suit. The clues are in the source/destination fields (unlicensed strips) and aircraft types (mostly permits). I just don't think there's any excuse for experienced pilots to be so crap on the radio. It's lameness where there need be none. These guys know how to fly, they're not strapped for mental capacity in the cockpit, but they still tie up frequencies for painful amounts of time.
Personally I classify it in the same annoyance bracket at the same experienced pilots who don't know the difference between FIS/RIS/RAS/RCS etc.; clearly defined services which we're about to lose because of people being too damn feckin' lazy to learn how simple air traffic services work. But that's another discussion.
Flew Sherburn to Fenland return today and received zone transits twice without difficulty. However there was no CAT evident. Heard 2 requests for unidentified traffic within the zone to identify themselves(they didn't) and one pilot gently chastised for entering the zone before radio contact.
There was a lot of GA traffic calling Donc today for FIS/zone transit - I suspect that should the CAT increase then the present honeymoon period will be over and transits will be more restricted.
There was a lot of GA traffic calling Donc today for FIS/zone transit - I suspect that should the CAT increase then the present honeymoon period will be over and transits will be more restricted.
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fbm:
They did at Southend, Lydd/Lympne and Prestwick (also Blackpool?). Yes, those were a long time ago but the tone of the CAA decision letter on Doncaster seems to suggest that they may well rescind it if traffic levels don't justify it.
NS
if the projections do not come to pass, will they give us back the class G
NS
Avoid imitations
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CAUTION!
I noticed yesterday, on picking up the latest edition (34) of the CAA Central England and Wales 500,000 chart, is that the new airspace in question does not appear!
The next edition isn't due until April 2009, so users from down south beware you don't become an infringement statistic.
I noticed yesterday, on picking up the latest edition (34) of the CAA Central England and Wales 500,000 chart, is that the new airspace in question does not appear!
The next edition isn't due until April 2009, so users from down south beware you don't become an infringement statistic.