Doncaster Sheffield - New Class D Airspace
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WH, firstly I made no attempt to insinuate that it was a GA exclusive mentality. 
Class D is not open to all, it is CAS within which certain rules apply. A CTR is established for the protection of IFR traffic taking off or landing at an airfield; it is not for the protection of (sic) 'priority CAT'.
I may not disagree with the argument but one has to be careful about the facts being used.
Class D is not open to all, it is CAS within which certain rules apply. A CTR is established for the protection of IFR traffic taking off or landing at an airfield; it is not for the protection of (sic) 'priority CAT'.
I may not disagree with the argument but one has to be careful about the facts being used.
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how DSA got this one through is a total and utter mystery, as has been said, there's no justification for it at all under current DAP "goalposts".
Join Date: Apr 2001
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B73:
You're right, they've corrected it now. The original announcement had them going the other way - and they've corrected the chart there too now.
I disagree. The purpose of VRPs is "to provide a datum, or series of datums, which enables ATC to recommend a route which does not conflict with traffic using instrument approach or departure procedures." (AIC 98/2005). In the worst case, anyone seeking a Special VFR departure via Stainforth will have to be denied it by ATC if there are any IFR inbounds due on 20 because the Stainforth Lane does not maintain 3nm separation from the final approach track to 20. In straight VFR conditions ATC would be within their rights to clear a VFR departure via Stainforth even when there's IFR traffic inbound on 20, merely giving traffic info to both parties, but I can't see them getting very far with that when the inbound IFR is, say, at 6nm on the ILS, commencing descent, still in IMC, with opposite direction traffic showing on their TCAS converging from the right at 1500ft, as little as 1nm away laterally.
Similarly, how can the Wadworth to Clumber lane be usable when there are any 02 inbounds/20 departures? The lane crosses the final approach track at 5nm where IFR inbounds will be at 1740ft QNH with the VFRs presumably at not above 1500.
The only way these lanes can work is when there's no IFR traffic.
NS
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSouth
Don't use it to fly any of the VFR lanes either cos it advocates flying in the opposite direction to what the Rules of the Air require.
Huh? From the diagram, it looks like the S/VFR routes use the 'fly on the right of a line feature' rule.
Originally Posted by NorthSouth
Don't use it to fly any of the VFR lanes either cos it advocates flying in the opposite direction to what the Rules of the Air require.
Huh? From the diagram, it looks like the S/VFR routes use the 'fly on the right of a line feature' rule.
All of the VRPs are at least 5nm from the airfield. These will be more than adequate for maintaining separation from inbound traffic
Similarly, how can the Wadworth to Clumber lane be usable when there are any 02 inbounds/20 departures? The lane crosses the final approach track at 5nm where IFR inbounds will be at 1740ft QNH with the VFRs presumably at not above 1500.
The only way these lanes can work is when there's no IFR traffic.
NS
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Lurking123 I have re-read my post and apologise as it could be taken as being "critical", it was certainly not intended. In fact the opposite. I think it is all too easy to accept what some ATC says and leave it at that, they are the professional and we the part time flyers so they must be right!
It seems a constant monitoring of this (by DAP) and other Class D is taking place to see what is really happening so get the reports in to the CAA as and when you feel appropriate
It seems a constant monitoring of this (by DAP) and other Class D is taking place to see what is really happening so get the reports in to the CAA as and when you feel appropriate
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Humberside next???
Join Date: Jan 2002
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This beggars belief!
Robin Hood Intergalatic spaceport gets a huge chunk of Class D and then 'me too' Humberside say we need it too!
Otherwise our controllers might have to use their radar and actually control traffic.
In a way it is an interesting insight into the thought processes of the application for CAS. There is no doubt that the pre-suposition of the application for CAS is to exclude any other traffic. Once you do that everything is easy peasy.
It completely ignored the fact that Humbeside is a LARS unit and so can 'see' all the traffic in the area - if they can do that what is the real need to exclude other traffic? The traffic densities are simply not high enough. for all their passengers I doubt there are more than 50 scheduled flights a day. For the vast majority of the time there is only GA traffic in the area.
Robin Hood needs to have its CAS withdrawn unless it can show that at least 5% of the time it actually has inbound or outbound traffic. This whole situation is a near complete nonesense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Robin Hood Intergalatic spaceport gets a huge chunk of Class D and then 'me too' Humberside say we need it too!
Otherwise our controllers might have to use their radar and actually control traffic.
In a way it is an interesting insight into the thought processes of the application for CAS. There is no doubt that the pre-suposition of the application for CAS is to exclude any other traffic. Once you do that everything is easy peasy.
It completely ignored the fact that Humbeside is a LARS unit and so can 'see' all the traffic in the area - if they can do that what is the real need to exclude other traffic? The traffic densities are simply not high enough. for all their passengers I doubt there are more than 50 scheduled flights a day. For the vast majority of the time there is only GA traffic in the area.
Robin Hood needs to have its CAS withdrawn unless it can show that at least 5% of the time it actually has inbound or outbound traffic. This whole situation is a near complete nonesense!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Having wtinessed the ATCO's at Doncaster fend off the swarthes of VFR non-commerical traffic around scheduled commercial arrivals one can totally understand the slapping of Class D around the place, I really can. My heart went out to the chap on the ground last time we attempted to swan over the top at 3000ft as a B737 came in on finals - 5 mile seperations kinda go out the window really...
So in summary: About bloody time!
To those PPL'ers who moan: Plan and make radio calls accordingly you lazy twunts!
VFE.
So in summary: About bloody time!
To those PPL'ers who moan: Plan and make radio calls accordingly you lazy twunts!
VFE.
Join Date: Apr 2000
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Yes, I am being antagonistic.
Yes, I am a private pilot.
Yes, I am a commercial pilot.
Yes, I am pissed off with tupp'ny ha'penny pisspot airports like this demanding controlled airspace.
Personally, having operated into and out of LBA and HUY many times in big tackle, I am impressed at the way they operate without huge swathes of airspace.
OK - LBA butts up against MAN airspace (no pun intended), however this nonsense at Finningley is totally unwarranted, IMHO
I sincerely hope this isn't your doing Mr Rackham
Yes, I am a private pilot.
Yes, I am a commercial pilot.
Yes, I am pissed off with tupp'ny ha'penny pisspot airports like this demanding controlled airspace.
Personally, having operated into and out of LBA and HUY many times in big tackle, I am impressed at the way they operate without huge swathes of airspace.
OK - LBA butts up against MAN airspace (no pun intended), however this nonsense at Finningley is totally unwarranted, IMHO
I sincerely hope this isn't your doing Mr Rackham
Avoid imitations
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Just happened to be on frequency earlier today when someone decided to fly at very low level through Luton's Class D airspace without clearance. Whoever it was, it didn't go un-noticed. Not at all clever, especially as there was an emergency in progress. 
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Having started off working in Class A airspace, giving avoiding action was usually if you'd screwed up. Completely different in G. Do you know how annoying it is having to break off ILS traffic for the sake of one aircraft who passes through a 4 mile final west bound and THEN decides to call you???
The amount of times there will be hardly any aircraft within 15 miles of Doncaster, except the one that conflicts with with the IFR.
And what about the extra fuel burn, a big consideration these days!
Roll on class D!!!
The amount of times there will be hardly any aircraft within 15 miles of Doncaster, except the one that conflicts with with the IFR.
And what about the extra fuel burn, a big consideration these days!
Roll on class D!!!
Join Date: Jan 2001
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BarTT we are talking about VERY LITTLE commercial traffic here. There has to be sense and reason to all this. I would like to bet if the airports had to pay a rent on the volume of airspace they claim we would suddenly see some big reductions. As it is, once established it costs them nothing but the stock phrase "keep clear of controlled airspace". Next time we hear that perhaps it should be challenged as to why a clearance cannot be given. If such answers are that it is down to controller workload then clearly the controlling authority does not have enough staff to properly manage the airspace for all users and the class D should be suspended until they do. Subject to safety and separation we have as much right to be there as IFR traffic and I trust you dont need to be reminded of that.
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Regrettably Bart and many other do need to be reminded. The application from Humberside is written with the intention of keeping GA traffic out. The actions of a large number of Class D controllers highlight that most days. Yes I have had transits, but equally I've had the 'remain clear' message so often I've become almost surprised when given a transit.
It is a question of mindset. Sur le continent Class D is treated as a known traffic environment - tell the controller where you are and what you're going to do and you will almost always be given a transit - usually with a 'report when clear'
Compare and contrast with the 'remain clear' apporach that typifies UK ATC.
It is a question of mindset. Sur le continent Class D is treated as a known traffic environment - tell the controller where you are and what you're going to do and you will almost always be given a transit - usually with a 'report when clear'
Compare and contrast with the 'remain clear' apporach that typifies UK ATC.
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Maybe I'm lucky but in 20 years of touring I have never been refused entry into class D. It could be that always squawking mode C makes the difference.
DO.
DO.
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dont overfill you appear to be somewhat fortunate. I cannot speak for others of course but in my view it makes no difference if one is Mode A or Mode C. In fact these days becuse I fly a fully IFR equipped aircraft it is Mode S, not that many units here can receive the mode S it seems.
Our best course of action is to question and file reports when it seems a transit may have been denied for any reason other than to maintain seraration. Radar traces can confirm or deny. We MUST NOT keep accepting controler workload as a reason for refusal without filing complaints.
Our best course of action is to question and file reports when it seems a transit may have been denied for any reason other than to maintain seraration. Radar traces can confirm or deny. We MUST NOT keep accepting controler workload as a reason for refusal without filing complaints.