The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08

[ShyTorque]

When I joined we had those on some of our front line aircraft too. It was a real revelation when they were upgraded to a radio where the pilot could actually dial VHF frequencies.

Some of the older UHF ones still had real crystals inside. Due to the very limited number of "studs" available, if going out of area we had to ask the engineers to "recrystallise" the radio, to allow us to speak on the frequencies we needed.

[flyboy 69]

why is aviation full of unhelpful idiots ???

[DX Wombat]

why is aviation full of unhelpful idiots

It's not. The problem is the small minority of idiots who give the rest of the good, professional people a bad name. It happens in other industries / services / the NHS, etc too. Just as in the NHS they can make their presence felt at the most inapropriate time with potentially disastrous consequences. The vast majority of pilots both Commercial and Private always act professionally but it's the handful of unprofessional idiots who get noticed.

[jamestkirk]

flyboy 69

Just think, if we had the cure for those idiots, we would make a fortune. You would have to force feed them it but that would only add the the experience.

We could then disect them for medical science, but I think only hot air would come out, leaving a useless, yet pungent shell.

We can dream!

[moggiee]

Originally Posted by jamestkirk

We could then disect them for medical science, but I think only hot air would come out, leaving a useless, yet pungent shell........

.....which would be set for a long, successful career in politics.

[SNS3Guppy]

Sounds like our American friends need a bit of (re)training.

Hardly. Too often, however, it seems that if it's not done the british way, it's just not done right. Or so the brits would have us believe.

So far as DX Wombat's actions go, she elected to use the tools available to her in arranging for the safety of the flight. Whether an emergency situation existed or not isn't particularly relevant. As the Pilot in Command, she acted within the scope of her responsibility to do what she felt was necessary and appropriate to ensure the safe handling of the airplane and a safe conclusion to the flight. Clearly as she has initiated and continued to post in the thread, she was right in doing so.

However, having said that, the thread deserves further comment. I've spent a number of years performing search and rescue services in various capacities, including searching for and finding ELT's, locating missing water craft, hikers, skiers, and aircraft. I've done this from the air and on foot, and have received and relayed a number of emergency calls by other aircraft or personnel on the ground, over 121.5. I've had a few occasions to use it myself, and have always maintained a pratice of guarding it (the reason it's called "Guard," by the way).

I've seen CAA documents studying/enforcing the misuse of 123.45 which seems like a lesser offence.

The idiot frequency, 123.45 is actually the prescribed air to air reporting frequency for North Atlantic operations, on which ride reports and other air to air traffic is provided. It's commonly used throughout the world for that purpose, on the larger scale.

CAT has rarely used/listened to 121.5 unless it has been a chat freq, football score retrieval system etc etc. In recent years, CAT has been required to monitor 121.5 to avoid potentially embarrassing situations.

This is untrue. 121.5 has been guarded in the cockpit for many years. I've always done it myself, it's always been the policy of each company for whom I've flown, I've always done it privately, and do it when I'm flying large or small aircraft. It has nothing to do with 09/11; it was a practice long before that event, and it's still quite appropriate today.

I've no idea what "potentially embarassing situations" might be avoided by guarding 121.5, but I do know of numerous ELT's that get picked up on guard, as well as distress calls and other emergency traffic. Most places in the world, if you broadcast on guard, you're far more likely to be monitored by, and receive a response from commercial traffic than an ATC facility. There are more ears listening on 121.5 by commercial traffic (corporate, airline, etc) than ATC by a wide margin, and there are many places in the world where there's simply no ATC coverage to hear your cry for help, relay a message, etc. Overhead commercial traffic can and frequently does this.

I have NEVER heard a spurious call on 121.5 from a light aircraft, but I've heard hundreds from airliners. Glass houses and stones come to mind.

I've heard hundreds of frivolous calls from light traffic on 121.5. I hear it all the time. All over the globe, in fact. More in the US and Europe than anywhere else, but I do hear it all the time.

To all the GA - crack on - better to get the words fuddled when the donk is at idle rather than wait till it happens for real!

Translated into English, that might have been an intelligent comment...but we may never know.

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

I thought that comment was well put, though perhaps not particularly applicable to the original poster.

Just because airliners suddenly have to monitor it since 9/11 doen't mean that it's suddenly become an airliner emergency frequency only. If you want an airliner only emergency frequency then ask for a frequency for that, rather than expecting everyone else to change.

Non sequitor. 121.5 has nothing to do with being an "airline frequency." That more commercial ears are listening to it and guarding it than anyone else is merely a fact of life. Its never been an airline emergency frequency, it's often an airliner that responds. There's been no "suddenly having to monitor" since 09/11. The requirement has always been there, and the monitoring has always gone on.

Nobody has asked for a change. Just some respect for 121.5; it's not a chat room. Unless you have a bonafide situation for which your lone voice should have priority above all others, then stay off. Whomever you are.

I will say, however, that because I do hear a great deal of frivolous chatter on guard, advising others to stay off gaurd isn't unwarranted. Sometimes a simple reminder that "you're on guard" may be adequate to handle the situation, just as a quick "blocked" over the radio lets others know that the transmission has been covered, and something important might have been missed.

It is not rocket science to manage a Jet, it is however Rocket science to have a professional courteous attitude as you can see.

Actually, it really is rocket science to manage a jet, in many cases. This doesn't mean it's particularly complicated, but between the use of high altitude psyiology, the requirement for a fairly well rounded understanding of the physics involved, high speed aerodynamics, and some fairly sophisticated equipment, it is rocket science. That's really neither here nor there...but then a professional, courteous attitude has nothing at all to do with rocket science...making the above quote both nonsensical and nonsequitor.

Reminding one that they are inadvertantly on guard is not unprofessional, nor unwarranted. Nor is it in any way related to rockets, or the science thereof.

There is no small irony in Americans trying to enforce R/T discipline. Before 911 domestic flights rarely monitored guard and international types used it mostly for ride reports and sports scores over the water. After 911, it is monitored religiously even on domestic flights lest you be intercepted and have to fill out paperwork.

Again with this. Guard has long been monitored, not just by airlines, but by all kinds of aerial traffic, from the private pilot on up. When I flew Grand Canyon tours, eons ago, we monitored guard...and it was used, too. Even in that limited domain, I picked up emergency calls by river runners with a broken leg or an illness, needing an evacuation. The only possible means they had for getting a call out was traffic flying directly overhead, due to their being in the bottom of a very deep hole in the ground, and no other communication available. That was well before 09/11, too.

You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so. You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers. I, and many like me, am restricted to flying beneath the cloud in conditions of which you are completely unaware. You seem incapable of understanding that in order to help someone it is necessary for the person requiring the help and D&D to speak to each other using 121.5. Do you have crystal balls to do this for you in the USA? We certainly don’t over here.

That was a little over the top. I'm one of those who sit in my nice, comfy aircraft. It's not super equipped, but it wil do. I do have a care in the world, I don't get the day's newspapers, and I have the weather to deal with as well...not just on a 50 mile flight between local airports, but globally. I cover a lot more ground, hear a lot more transmissions, and field a lot more calls requesting help. It may simply be relaying for ATC, or it may be someone in the middle of the atlantic, ferrying a light airplane and in trouble, who needs a voice to hear them.

As for being completely unaware of your flying conditions, how do you suppose most of us made it to our "nice comfy cockpits?" By spending a lot of time in bad weather doing all kinds of flying right where you are. Many of us still do. We're quite aware of your flying conditions, of your needs, and of your discomfort when pressed into conditions which may try you or make you afraid. We've all been there, and we do understand. We also see and hear a lot more than you do, have probably been flying a lot longer than you for a great many more hours in a lot more places, and this isn't our first time around the patch.

When I hear traffic needing help, I listen. If no jumps in to help, I'll do so. If I hear traffic, I note what's going on, and if it's inappropriate, you bet I'll jump in to remind the traffic that they might be better off somewhere other than guard. That makes me a guard cop? Fine. I've spent more than a few hours running down ELT's and handling emergencies in which my own work was hampered by those who inappropriately used the frequency. I've had to lead increadulus and angered private pilots by their shirt sleeves to their airplane to show them that yes, it really was their ELT causing allthe ruckus, and no, I wasn't making a sweeping condemnation of their ability to land an airplane, and please, for the love of pete and all things suede, just shut the damn thing off and sir, have a nice day. Been there, done that...don't be in such a hurry to hang all that condemnation on those of us overhead listening to your call. It may be that one day it's one of us who recognizes the value of 121.5 that's saving your life.

You hear what's in your immediate area on the few occasions you go fly...and perhaps that does include some flight crew somewhere making ignorant calls on the emergency frequency. I make it around the world once, sometimes twice a month, in the air, regularly as clockwork, hear a lot more over a much wider area...and the inappropriate use of 121.5 for non-priority calls does get tiresome. It's very often two guys trying to sort out where they are, or arrange a formation flight, as they play weekend warrior in their Cessna or Maule. So when one of us happens to call out and suggest another channel, yes, we really do have your best interest in mind.

Even if you don't like it.

Since there is nothing like the UK D&D service in the US, American pilots (particularly ex-military ones) tend to view the frequency as sacrosanct and view any traffic, other than an obvious Mayday, as being on the wrong frequency. Hence the tendency to butt in with "You're on Guard!".

There surely is something like the UK D&D service in the US. Flight Service has been around for many years providing routine and emergency services, including airborne Direction Finding (DFing) services to pilots in need. In the US, the use of 121.5 is generally reserved for real emergencies or loss of communication situations, with Flight Watch being available on different frequencies (such as 122.0). Recent political changes in the administering of flight service in the US have damaged that, and DF capability has been gradually reduced in many locations, but it's something that many of us grew up with ages ago. Our own system has been far more advanced, and far more pervasive, than what you have in the UK, for many years. Simply because you haven't used it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and certainly for reasons already provided, you might do well not to assume pilots monitoring guard merely blurt out or butt in.

Guard is a guarded frequency for a reason.

[Final 3 Greens]

Hardly. Too often, however, it seems that if it's not done the british way, it's just not done right. Or so the brits would have us believe.


I am disappointed that you made such a petty comment, which does not align with the excellent input you usually give.

When flying in UK airspace, the UK rules apply to 121.5.

Pilots who do not respect the UK laws need education or if that does not work, punitive action.

I have flown in the USA and made a point of learning the FARs (by self study and formal training) and respecting the different ways things are done, even when they felt alien.

That was as a private pilot, I therefore have some trouble understanding why professional pilots cannot make themselves aware of the UK procedures and comply with these.

[frontlefthamster]

Hmmm, the OP said

You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so.

...and I can't quite agree with that, as it was he who nearly 'caused an accident' by flying in unsuitable conditions and losing his way.

121.5 used to be the distress frequency for puddle-jumpers.

Now, like it or not, it's the de facto anti-hijack/loss of comms frequency. Those of us at the front of big aircraft are thoroughly fed up of having to monitor it, and the situation needs to change.

In one respect, the OP's prediction may carry some water... There is every possibility that the accident will occur to a public transport aircraft, and be 'caused by' puddle-jumper practice pans.

[Lurking123]

SNS3, a thorough post. Turning back a few pages, I think the problem centres around those who jump-in on Guard without actually listening to see whether the call is bona fide.

[Final 3 Greens]

There is every possibility that the accident will occur to a public transport aircraft, and be 'caused by' puddle-jumper practice pans.

What nonsense.

The CAA study shows that the vast majority of 121.5 clutter is created by commercial air transport, not general aviation.

[Fuji Abound]

What a load of B$%££".

The recent comments are all very interesting and nothing wrong with a bit of in depth analysis but in terms of the jist of the original post the thread is out of hand.

The real issue is there is no excuse for jumping in on any frequency without listening first. If you listen first you would realise their was emergency traffic on the channel and leave them be.

Listen before you speak and there is far more chance what you say will make sense.

Seems pretty simple really?

[SNS3Guppy]

Turning back a few pages, I think the problem centers around those who jump-in on Guard without actually listening to see whether the call is bona fide.

Wise words for many aspects of aviation, not just the radio. Fast hands kill; the urge to do something before sitting on one's hands and thinking about it for a time is more often the cause of problems than anything else. In fact, the most dangerous thing in the cockpit is the pilot.

Taking time to evaluate and decide before taking action will generaly prevent one from making any situation worse, and turning the routine into an emergency.

When I had an engine failure on an active fire a couple of years ago, I wasn't on gaurd and didn't have time to turn to it, and it wouldn't have helped. I was talking to other fire traffic on a tactical VHF frequency, and simply keyed the mike and said "Tanker 455 has a problem." The radio immediately went dead, a slight pause, and the Leadplane overseeing my drop came back with "can you make the road ahead?" He didn't attempt to diagnose, didn't ask what went wrong, he abandoned the past and went straight to the present.

Another pilot on the frequency, with whom I'd just made a formation descent to the drop target down inside the burning canyon (where I now was) jumped in with "Is your engine surging?" Anyone else, it would have been in intrusion, but he'd flown the same airplane a year before, and was aware of a unique potential problem with that specific airplane engine installation. I said "no," and he was off, with no further communication. Very professional.

From that point on until I came to a rest on the hillside, there was only one more transmission. I elected not to use the oil top road ahead that lead out of the canyon, due to the number of personnel and emergency vehicles parked there, and delayed jettisoning my load for the same reason. I couldn't afford much delay, and the lead immediately came back with a very stern, very loud "LOSE THE LOAD!" to jog me back to reality. I'd obtained a slight torque increase for about three seconds, and had squandered those three seconds dwelling on the hope of limping to an airport. His call brought me back as the torque dropped to zero and I made my final turn to the hillside as I exited the canyon downwind of the fire.

Nobody said a word as I came to a rest, and everything else from there was done off frequency on other radios. Unbeknownst to me a helicopter pilot dropping just outsidethe mouth of the canyon was monitoring, and retained his bucket load, and followed me. When I looked up, he was hovering in front with a bucket load of water, right in front of the nose of the airplane, staring at me intently and watching the black smoke pour out of my engine intake. I began to secure the cockpit and ensure fuel was shut off, electrical shut off, and reached to pull the canopy jettison handle. The leadplane came up and asked if everything was okay, I advised him I was attempting to Egress, and that was the end of the call. Very concise, very professional, and as I went over the side of the airplane in tow of an extinguisher and my gear, the lead shot overhead about 200', closely looking me over. The helicopter was flying tight circles around the airplane looking for fire or an ignition source on which to drop, and the coordination was all done for me without my saying hardly a word.

That's how it ought to work, but seldom does. In that case, everybody was on the same page, everyone trained under the same system, flew under the same system, and was working closely together and "in the loop."

In the SAR system, be it Flight Watch in the US, D&D in the UK, or working with air traffic control, the standardization and training is there. The weak link is usually the pilot, which makes some sense because the emergency communication is generally one of the least trained areas, and the pilot may already have his or her hands full. The procedures are laid out very clearly for working with the other parties involved, and you may generally rest assured they'll act very professionally and precisely within the guidelines they've been given...including standard phraseology and procedures.

The challenge, in fact the necessity, is to learn them well enough you can mesh and use the full capability of the services available to you when things come undone. When all else fails, fall back to "plain english," simply state what you have, what you need, and your intentions, and then do it. Don't feel like you need to be precise or exact, don't feel bad if you miss a "mayday" or don't formally declare the day to be one of mahem and emergency. Make your call, and do it; it's your right and responsibility as PIC.

If others attempt to become involved who ought not (the "guard police," for example), the best policy is to set them aside and ignore them...or do as DX Wombat did and tell them to shut up while you handle your problem. Remember, yours is the priority. If no one is inclined to give it to you, then take it. It's your right.

[BRL]

Interesting post. Thanks for sharing that.

[Frankly Mr Shankly]

Without reading the plethora of replies DX, as an airline pilot and PPL weekender, albeit less and less frequently now (the pay's not all that) the answer is quite straightforward to me.

If a pilot needs assistance, 121.5 is absolutley fine. And pardon the vocab, but bollocks to anyone else trying to be officious on guard. If a pilot needs help, he needs help. It could well be a young 18 year old on a solo nav ex, last thing he needs to hear is some idiot with NO COMMON SENSE (!!!!!!) arguing the toss about who needs help and who doesnt. Let DnD sort that out.

Guys if you need help, call them. Rather that than an event that could ruin your day. We can all argue the toss in the bar afterwards.

[AirplanesSuck]

In the states the guard police are generally there to immediately point out how silly you are when you accidentally transmit on 121.5. Usually things about gate positions or ground transportation for VIP's or what's on the tube tonight. Only rarely have I heard a pilot repeatedly transmit a football score several times on guard. Most pilots realize (without direction from policemen) that they have tranmitted on the wrong freq.

The original poster, while a bit over-excited, is right. Just relax you guard police. Read a paper or something.

I'll readily agree that our friends across the pond are better trained and disciplined in RT. However, my American colleagues don't have a monopoly on being doofuses. SNS3Guppy's posts are spot on. All the cushy-seated jet pilots flew little slow planes in the weather. We're looking out for you, too. Whether you're in a hot-air balloon or a gyrocopter, I think we're all ready to shut up and help when someone gets in a tight spot.

[boredcounter]

Here is a dumb question....

...From an Ops guy with 20 years in.

Given the initial post, who at FL370 would call 'Mayday' on 121.5 within say 250 miles of the UK? Would you not call that on the assigned frq and sqwak?

In this case, I'm just guessing here, 'All stations x3 stop transmitting 121.5 monitoring a distress call, xxx132 out, handed over to the next guy within range, Company has ACARS and you know whose about, if you dont, company does. Monitor 121.5 and assist where poss G-~~~~ will be the return ACARS from me.

A lost, caught out by the weather wannabe does not have that benifit, just 121.5 in the UK. Help them as best you can, they may be your RHS one one day.

A practise PAN from a PA-28 will soon be cancelled if you call 121.5 with a real Mayday.


Bored

[slam_dunk]

Do you guys realise that a practice pan broadcasted in the UK can be heard within +/- 300 NM from your position?

a bit annoying to a lot of people

[rich_g85]

That's good to know.

+/- 300 miles? Think about it.

[Ye Olde Pilot]

Interesting...

I'll have to try that at ground level.

[moreflaps]

After reading this thread, it seems to me that some useful ideas for the use of 121.5 could be obtained from how Ch.16 is used in the maritime environment.
Ch.16 is emergency as well as (sometimes) for hailing. Control of 16 in an emergency is guaranteed by MAYDAY SILONCE. After establishing your routine contact on 16 you immediately switch to another agreed channel etc. All mayday/pan comms are prefixed by mayday/pan. It seems to work well in my experience.

Cheers