The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08

[pilotbear]

Glad it worked out OK DX, I apologise for the self righteous idiots still in the industry. Sadly there are still a few who are obviously unimportant to their company/family/community so they have to make up for it somewhere; hopefully they will all retire soon
And you are right, there is nothing to do up at FL 410 except look at the menu/paper/book despite what anyone might tell you. It is not rocket science to manage a Jet, it is however Rocket science to have a professional courteous attitude as you can see.
Having done a lot of single pilot_iFR flying and IR instructing I know what exactly the conditions can be like.
I also flew Project Propeller last week, and the visibility was very bad and unpredicted. My two veterans were fascinating, a Beaufighter night fighter pilot and a Stirling Navigator. One of which did 42 missions. Amazing.
Wonder how many of the above plonkers would give up their time and fuel for free
You did the right thing.

[DX Wombat]

Gone till november - I'm sorry I gave the impression that I was having an anti-jet pilot rant that certainly wasn't my intention, I was merely trying to convey the fact that conditions above the cloud can be far removed from those below and that above the cloud you are isolated and insulated from the world beneath. I have good reason to be very grateful to one Emirates pilot who, at 37,000' somewhere above Europe, listened and acted appropriately to help. I can understand accidental transmissions there isn't a single one of us who has never made some sort of mistake and, to some extent, I can understand someone reminding another that they are transmitting on the wrong frequency especially when it is clear cut abuse of it. D&D is a wonderful service and we here in the UK are very fortunate in having it. The officers working in D&D are specially trained for the job so there is no risk of anyone in the UK ending up talking to a recently validated ATCO straight out of college, who may not have fully developed the necessary skills for dealing with such emergencies. There is no need for anyone flying in or near the UK to tell others that they are "on guard" as D&D will inform them as necessary. My anger is not with the vast majority of real professional pilots but rather with the stupid, selfish, thoughtless idiots who cannot remember to LISTEN before they speak but simply bark out what they fondly imagine to be a warning. It is good to know that, like that Emirates pilot, there are many of you out there who DO listen and are prepared to help should it be necessary. I do have very serious concerns that the behaviour of the "Guard Police" is eventually going to cause a fatal accident. Being rather older than many PPLs and PPL students I hope I have gained enough experience in general to be able to cope with interruptions but a less experienced student or PPL may be so totally confused and upset by their antics that he or she doesn't hear vital information from D&D with possible tragic results. What happened last Saturday went far beyond the odd interruption it was almost constant and was dangerous.
Thank you to everyone who was listening and was relieved to hear that I had reached Old Warden safely. My passenger was a rear gunner so had done very little flying. He didn't pass any remarks about the interruptions but I could see from the raised eyebrows that he wasn't too happy about them. When I chatted to him last night he said "I thought the visibility wasn't ideal but when I saw that big, black wedge out to the east of Worcester I knew it wasn't. In spite of all that he had a wonderful time and, as he put it, saw so much more of the country than he had ever seen before. He followed our progress on the chart and took great delight in finding the places which the officer from D&D mentioned both on the chart and the ground. Project Propeller is the one day when we can give a little back to those who did so much for us. I'm glad to say that in spite of all that happened and with the help of D&D he was able to enjoy his day. That made all the hassle worthwhile.
Keygrip and BRL, thanks for moving it back.

[F14]

Maybe you should sen in a report to CAA? or just an anecdotal to Chirp. PPRUNE is a great board, but is only "Bar Talk" type forum.

The points you make are very valid and every UK PPL is taught the correct way to speak with D&D. Many CPLs only flew GA types in USA, sadly its the way things have been going.....

On the plus side I think I heard of a Ryanair helping somebody with RT problems,making a relay, a while ago, maybe it was chirp or here??? So not all bad

[Dogma]

"sitting comfy at 410, etc" - what twaddle, a sim instructor and a GA pilot casting BS about the issues faced by commercial jet pilots... what a joke. You try doing that across the world safely and efficently - it is no cake walk. The gall!!!!


DX - you are a gentleman Pilot and you should have not had to face such inappropriate calls from other Pilots on Guard. But bare in mind these guys are coming off the atlantic picking up only bits of your transmission, it sounds like illegal tx. The UK is non-standard in its use of 121.5.

What is wrong with relocating this frequency? When nearing the UK the "traffic" on 121.5 is unacceptable, ATC Radio Checks, mistakes, Pans, Practice Pans, etc, etc.

What about a Global VHF SELCAL system for all airliners on 121.5?

[moggiee]

Dogma (unfortunate, but rather appropriate choice of user name) - a few points.

Miss DX Wombat would prefer to be known as a "lady pilot".

The UK may be out of step with the USA on 121.5 - but that's OK, this took place in UK airspace so it was all in accordance with the local procedures. UK pilots follow FAA/DoD rules in the USA, German rules in Germany, French rules in France (need I go any further with this?).

Despite what it's inhabitants believe, the USA does NOT rule the world - other people do things differently.

[Arthur Dent1]

Gap of perception here, all commercial jet pilots have experienced VFR flying with the associated issues. Only a minority of VFR pilots understand the Jet/IFR environment, including trying never to miss RT calls when clearances are being issued which affect the lives of the hundreds of passengers who depend on us.

I do essentially agree with Wombat though at the indifferent and patronising tone of the Guard nerds.

It is a shame that no-one in the stratosphere tried to stop the nerds from interrupting a genuine D and D communication, I will certainly make sure that we try to comprehend any 121.5 calls should they occur in any section of the flying community.

Good luck to Wombat and happy flying mate!

[chrisbl]

.......including trying never to miss RT calls when clearances are being issued which affect the lives of the hundreds of passengers who depend on us.

A bit holier than thou. The system operates as much on the fact that if the pilot dies so will everyone else. So if the pilot survives so will most others.

A good reason while pilots will stay on the aircraft for the forseeable future rather than hunkered down is a bunker somewhere flying the aircraft by remote control.

A listening to and understanding clearances is important whether you are flying solo or with three hundred people if you life depends on it.

As for the UKs non standard use of 121.5, bear in mind that the other non standard part of the 121.5 regime is that it is permenetantly manned by the military and if anyone is the are the guard police.

A required quality of even the most basic pilot is situational awareness. It seems some dont appreciate that when around the UK and their misuse of 121.5.

If you know 121.5 is non standard adapt. If you dont know 121.5 is non standard, shame on you.

[dublinpilot]

121.5 is an emergency frequency. This was an emergency, and was being correctly used for such communications.

Just because airliners suddenly have to monitor it since 9/11 doen't mean that it's suddenly become an airliner emergency frequency only. If you want an airliner only emergency frequency then ask for a frequency for that, rather than expecting everyone else to change.

[BackPacker]

121.5 is an emergency frequency. This was an emergency, and was being correctly used for such communications.

Well, personally I would not call this an "emergency". Sure, within the UK this is a legitimate use of 121.5 but in other parts of the world this would not be appropriate. Instead, you would be contacting the nearest radar/VDF equipped center on their own frequency, and talk to them.

Also, I don't think (based on what I've read here) that DX actually declared a "pan" or "mayday", and used that word consistently in front of her callsign. I don't think there's any pilot in the world who, upon hearing "this is mayday/pan G-DX" on 121.5 would play the guard police, as the word mayday or pan alone would make clear that the use of 121.5 was deliberate and genuine.

As others have said it, the UK is one of the few (perhaps the only) country in the world which allows (even encourages, in some cases) the use of 121.5 for more than just genuine emergencies. It's also one of the few (perhaps the only) country who have a dedicated ground unit (D&D) which monitors this frequency H24. In most other places such a ground unit is not in place and without some sort of informal guard police 121.5 would probably quickly become another sports/chat channel.

Of course airline pilots are supposed to know the local rules, regulations and habits of the countries they're flying in. This is such a local thing. I don't know exactly how airline pilots do things but I've heard that diligent pilots fly with the AIP (or the Jeppessen extract of it) on their lap, looking up local ICAO differences as they fly along. I wonder how prominent these differences wrt. 121.5 are written down in the UK AIP so that airline pilots know about them?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As others have said it, the UK is one of the few (perhaps the only) country in the world which allows (even encourages, in some cases) the use of 121.5 for more than just genuine emergencies. It's also one of the few (perhaps the only) country who have a dedicated ground unit (D&D) which monitors this frequency H24. In most other places such a ground unit is not in place and without some sort of informal guard police 121.5 would probably quickly become another sports/chat channel.

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here ... but what use is 121.5 in other parts of the world if nobody who can help you is listening to it??

[youngskywalker]

Simple really old boy, it's like military stores "Stores are for storing things, if we handed out all of our stores then we wouldnt have any stores would we...?"

[BackPacker]

Maybe I'm being a bit thick here ... but what use is 121.5 in other parts of the world if nobody who can help you is listening to it??

Baseball scores, general chitchat and the occasional mayday relay?

[moggiee]

Backpacker - you don't understand the way D&D works in the UK. You don't have to have an "emergency" to call D&D on 121.5 - if you need help,they're there. D&D stands for "Distress and Diversion" - it was under the second part of that remit that D&D were helping out DX Wombat.

Part of their role is to provide practice PANs, training fixes so that pilots can learn to use the system and position fixes for pilots who need a little help. Giving position fixes helps prevent a "situation" becoming an "emergency" - and there is no need to use "PAN" or "MAYDAY" for training fixes and position fixes.

Obviously, if a full blown emergency arises then the practice PAN, taringing etc take second place.

Maybe it could have been done with another ATCU - but DX did the most important thing of all - she recognised that she needed help and got some, rather than just blundering into an accident.

[DFC]

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

While I do not agree with the way that the complaints were made, I feel that a complaint about a flight unnecessarly using the emergency frequency to be vectored not to the nearest suitable aerodrome - you must have passed plenty between Wellsbourne and Old Warden - but all the way to destination is very justified.

I would have not called on 121.5 to complain about another pilot making such transmissions but would have filed an MOR on arrival.

The issues as I see them are;

1. The flight did not have an emergency

2. D+D vectored the aircraft not to the nearest suitable aerodrome but all the way to destination bypasing several suitable aerodromes.

3. D+D continued to vector the aircraft using area radars and 121.50 when the flight was for most of the time in range of several approach radar units with more accurate radar and better coverage at low level. These units could proivide just as good a service and in doing so would remove the non-emergency traffic from 121.5

One thinks that there was too much "I don't want to turn back" in this situation and both the pilot and D+D joined forces to make a scudrunning VFR flight to destination when a turn back or diversion to suitable nearby aerodrome would have been without doubt a safe option.

Had I overheard this on 121.5 then I would not interupt but would file an MOR for abuse of the frequency by non-emergency traffic obtaining a personal vectoring service.

Regards,

DFC

[youngskywalker]

oh dear god...

[Foxy Loxy]

Hi DX,

I happened to be monitoring 121.5 that day, and I heard your comms with D&D throughout. May I congratulate you on keeping your composure so well? I heard the "Guard Police" too, and I was pretty disgusted at their behaviour.

From DFC:

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

Perhaps you should have read DX's opening post properly. The weather that she encountered was NOT forecast!! What an irresponsible and ill-considered comment. Now go and crawl back into your hole, and stay there.

I would implore pilots to ignore what DFC said, and if you do find yourself in a similar situation, call D&D. Or any other ATCU (preferably with radar). We're here to help. It's what we do.

[youngskywalker]

He just loves to be controversial in everything that he posts, he would argue black is white. I'm going to try the 'ignore' function on pprune from now on!

[Foxy Loxy]

I'm inclined to agree, youngskywalker. Normally I wouldn't bother responding, but when something flies so obviously in the face of flight safety it shouldn't be left to stand.

[DX Wombat]

Don't worry Youngskywalker, DFC obviously can't read very well.

I am really struggling to decide if the "Guard Police" are worse than an idiot that uses the emergency service for their own personal vectoring service in marginal weather.

Firstly I would have been an idiot to have NOT called D&D. You as a commercial pilot might be able to get help from Birmingham which was the nearest civil airfield with radar but Birmingham has a dreadful reputation for unfriendliness to GA indeed they didn't even give me their QNH to enable me to keep clear of their airspace on my return. Fortunately I knew I was low enough. Would you want to contact such an airfield? Quite apart from which, D&D is the dedicated unit for people with problems and they MUCH prefer people to call early rather than have to send someone to pick up the bits.

..... I was not where I should have been. I decided to call D&D (London Centre) for a position fix with a view to turning back.

What do you not understand about that?

The officer at D&D was most helpful and said he would route me well south of Wellesbourne. He and I exchanged relevant information and he provided me with vectors and updates eventually taking me almost to the overhead join at Old Warden

At no time did I ask to be taken to OW but the fact that I was was greatly appreciated. To where do you suggest they should have diverted me? I was well past Birmingham, Wellesbourne had their runway closed, nobody was answering D&D's calls at Hinton in the Hedges or Turweston, and Cranfield, a few minutes away from my destination was extremely busy. As for collusion with D&D to give me a personal vectoring service if that were not such a serious allegation it would be laughable. I shall be very interested to hear what D&D has to say about that.
Foxy and Luke, thank you for those kind comments. I was obviously composing this reply whilst you were writing yours. I'm leaving it to D&D to decide what to do about the persistent interruptions as they have all the relevant data and, as the official body, probably have much more clout than I do.
Er, that should be "Young" skywalker, not Luke.

[youngskywalker]

Agreed, people could find themselves seriously in the 'kak' if they listen to crap advice like that.

So what if they vectored the subject aircraft to the required destination? That was at the sole discretion of the D&D staff and Pilot in command, perhaps they saw it as good practice? Perhaps landing at an 'unfamiliar' airfield, or one that she had no cockpit information on, had not breifed herself for was not the 'best course of action'?

For once get off your high horse, if you cant, in over 2000 posts ever post anything positive, encouraging or worth listening to then please don't bother!