The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08
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So why do the airlines have to monitor 121.50 in Europe?
Surely if they get intercepted then they change to 121.50 and try to establish communication with interceptor or ask whats going on the primary frequency.
Surely if they get intercepted then they change to 121.50 and try to establish communication with interceptor or ask whats going on the primary frequency.
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I'm a little confused, but then that's easily done!
What does the phrase "talking in guard" actually mean? What was the person trying to achieve?
I'm a little at a lose to understand what these 'guard police' think they're doing?
Sorry if it's obvious.
C23
What does the phrase "talking in guard" actually mean? What was the person trying to achieve?
I'm a little at a lose to understand what these 'guard police' think they're doing?
Sorry if it's obvious.
C23
Avoid imitations
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The problem with folk proclaiming about "correct and incorrect" use here is that a mere personal opinion might, in some circumstances, be mistakenly taken as gospel by an inexperienced pilot.
In UK, D&D have done a sterling job, using 121.5 and 243.0 for many years, certainly for longer than the three and a half decades I've been flying. The recent "claim" to 121.5 by some airline pilots, who now arrogantly and ignorantly believe that D&D and others should get off "their" frequency cannot go unchallenged.
I believe that these pilots themselves are at fault because in truth the "on air" complainers obviously can't effectively manage their radios in the manner of a professional pilot. In most cases they should "zip lip", allow D&D to do their job, and submit an MOR about the incident causing them concern, rather than blocking the frequency themselves.
I also believe the time has now come for D&D to begin occurence logging and take formal action against misuse of the emergency frequency. By that I mean action against the uncallsigned complainers who think they have some divine right to "evict" others from the airwaves.
The use of 121.5 by others can be an inconvenience at times, but as a mere single pilot I can still effectively monitor that frequency for 99% of my airborne time by simply TURNING DOWN THE VOLUME CONTROL when required, so that the distracting chatter is reduced to an acceptable but still audible level.
Just my opinion.
In UK, D&D have done a sterling job, using 121.5 and 243.0 for many years, certainly for longer than the three and a half decades I've been flying. The recent "claim" to 121.5 by some airline pilots, who now arrogantly and ignorantly believe that D&D and others should get off "their" frequency cannot go unchallenged.
I believe that these pilots themselves are at fault because in truth the "on air" complainers obviously can't effectively manage their radios in the manner of a professional pilot. In most cases they should "zip lip", allow D&D to do their job, and submit an MOR about the incident causing them concern, rather than blocking the frequency themselves.
I also believe the time has now come for D&D to begin occurence logging and take formal action against misuse of the emergency frequency. By that I mean action against the uncallsigned complainers who think they have some divine right to "evict" others from the airwaves.
The use of 121.5 by others can be an inconvenience at times, but as a mere single pilot I can still effectively monitor that frequency for 99% of my airborne time by simply TURNING DOWN THE VOLUME CONTROL when required, so that the distracting chatter is reduced to an acceptable but still audible level.
Just my opinion.
DX Wombat
Speaking as an ex-D&D inmate (some years ago) I could not agree with you more. It was painful/frustrating to hear someone in need of help struggle with the R/T to try and find the correct phraseology ... when the chips are down use the R/T like a b****y telephone - we can 'sort out the paperwork' when the a/c is safely on the ground.
As for the so called 'Guard Police' - those antics merely reflect the total lack of airmanship and unprofessional nature of the perpertrator. If the circumstance is so dire file a MOR (or whatever it is called now). But there again laziness dictates that it is so much easier to press the TX and feel a perverted sense of righteousness.
Regarding D&D issuing a more forthright rebuke when the occasion demands - fine and dandy ... as long as the ATCEEB and the LEO etc. don't catch you
Speaking as an ex-D&D inmate (some years ago) I could not agree with you more. It was painful/frustrating to hear someone in need of help struggle with the R/T to try and find the correct phraseology ... when the chips are down use the R/T like a b****y telephone - we can 'sort out the paperwork' when the a/c is safely on the ground.
As for the so called 'Guard Police' - those antics merely reflect the total lack of airmanship and unprofessional nature of the perpertrator. If the circumstance is so dire file a MOR (or whatever it is called now). But there again laziness dictates that it is so much easier to press the TX and feel a perverted sense of righteousness.
Regarding D&D issuing a more forthright rebuke when the occasion demands - fine and dandy ... as long as the ATCEEB and the LEO etc. don't catch you
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Originally Posted by Lurking123
The UK chooses to do its alerting and fixing service (an ICAO requirement) on 121.5. Unique across the world, this facility is second to none but, at the same time, rather upsets those who do not understand the capability
Apologies from this dinosaur, familiar with VHFDF technology and Gloster Meteors and Hunters, but having difficulties understanding why such a basic and useful service is being slagged off by the CAT fraternity....
My bold and underline.
If this is an ICAO requirement, where (i.e., on what frequency, or what frequencies) is this requirement met everywhere else in the world?
Or is it indeed unique to the UK?
CJ
What does the phrase "talking in guard" actually mean?
C23,
I'll try to answer your question. 'Guard' is an American military term for an Emergency frequency, in this context 121.5 VHF and 243.0 UHF. Back when I flew UAS Chipmunks, I don't ever remember hearing the term used within the RAF, but I presume the term is in more common use these days.
Since there is nothing like the UK D&D service in the US, American pilots (particularly ex-military ones) tend to view the frequency as sacrosanct and view any traffic, other than an obvious Mayday, as being on the wrong frequency. Hence the tendency to butt in with "You're on Guard!".
"Kick the tires, light the fires, first one off is Lead, brief on Guard!"
I42
I'll try to answer your question. 'Guard' is an American military term for an Emergency frequency, in this context 121.5 VHF and 243.0 UHF. Back when I flew UAS Chipmunks, I don't ever remember hearing the term used within the RAF, but I presume the term is in more common use these days.
Since there is nothing like the UK D&D service in the US, American pilots (particularly ex-military ones) tend to view the frequency as sacrosanct and view any traffic, other than an obvious Mayday, as being on the wrong frequency. Hence the tendency to butt in with "You're on Guard!".
"Kick the tires, light the fires, first one off is Lead, brief on Guard!"
I42
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Christaan, I've just re-read my post and sorry for the confusion. ICAO and IMO (the boat drivers) have developed a IAMSAR manual which provides guidance for the coordinated activity responding to an incident. ICAO also have their SAR manual. Somewhere in that lot are SARPs regarding use of frequencies and the manner in which vessels (aircraft and ships) should be fixed. My word "requirement" should have been "recommendation".
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It seems the technology exists to easily identify the offenders. Whether the will does is another matter.
Can't one of the representative bodies write to the CAA/NATS and press for firm and public action against offenders?
I've seen CAA documents studying/enforcing the misuse of 123.45 which seems like a lesser offence. If they have time to devote to that, they should be pressed to devote equal time to 121.5
Can't one of the representative bodies write to the CAA/NATS and press for firm and public action against offenders?
I've seen CAA documents studying/enforcing the misuse of 123.45 which seems like a lesser offence. If they have time to devote to that, they should be pressed to devote equal time to 121.5
Originally Posted by BigEndBob
So why do the airlines have to monitor 121.50 in Europe?
Surely if they get intercepted then they change to 121.50 and try to establish communication with interceptor or ask whats going on the primary frequency.
Surely if they get intercepted then they change to 121.50 and try to establish communication with interceptor or ask whats going on the primary frequency.
(2) Because they are often in the best place to receive somebody else's distress call. Not on 121.5 but I've certainly appreciated an airliner overhead relaying a message for me before now that ATC couldn't receive - possibly avoiding in at least one case D&D notification as I descended into a non-radio strip on an island in the Hebrides.
Incidentally, I'm definite that the term "Guard" was in use within the RAF in the 1980s for 121.5.
G
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The term is MUCH older than 1980s, though.
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Crystal radios with 18(?) pre-set studs (freqs). Flick past the last one, through the "guard" switch and you'll find yourself on 243.0.
About the only thing I remember from ?? Cse, 7 FTS RAF Church Fenton.
About the only thing I remember from ?? Cse, 7 FTS RAF Church Fenton.
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I wonder if changing the call sign from "London Centre" to something like "London Distress" would have any effect? It would make it more obvious that this is an official service, and that it was transmitting on the correct frequency!
On the down side, I expect some people might be more reluctant to call "London Distress" rather than "London Centre"
On the down side, I expect some people might be more reluctant to call "London Distress" rather than "London Centre"
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Originally Posted by Lurking123
Crystal radios with 18(?) pre-set studs (freqs). Flick past the last one, through the "guard" switch and you'll find yourself on 243.0.
The explanation sounds so simple, and so improbable, that it's most likely right......
Originally Posted by dublinpilot
... changing the call sign from "London Centre" to something like "London Distress"...
Why not "London Guard"?
Less 'loaded' than "London Distress".
And everybody already seems to recognise the 'name' of the frequency.
Or "London Centre, on Guard"?
Would provide continuity with the current callsign, AND would notify the nitwits, that D&D is already very well aware they are on guard!
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Here you can just see the G set on the pre-set knob (left hand side). You can also see T/R+G selected on mode to the right. This was (is?) the standard operating mode where you would have Tx/Rx selected on you primary freq (the knob on the left) and also monitored Guard.
So, monitoring Guard has been routine in the UK for quite a while. The RAF don't seem to have a problem.
So, monitoring Guard has been routine in the UK for quite a while. The RAF don't seem to have a problem.
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Thanks for the pic, Lurking 123!
What was "behind" that CU? Something more sophisticated than a T1154, no doubt.
Sorry, I'm going off-topic here, maybe worth a discussion on "Aviation History and Nostalgia"?
CJ
What was "behind" that CU? Something more sophisticated than a T1154, no doubt.
Sorry, I'm going off-topic here, maybe worth a discussion on "Aviation History and Nostalgia"?
CJ