The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08
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The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08
This is addressed to the idiots of the “Guard Police” who were active on the morning of 31.5.08.
I had departed from Halfpenny Green in a Cessna 152, with my passenger, an ex WW2 RAF Aircrew gentleman. We were heading for Project Propeller at Old Warden. In case you are not aware, this is the annual opportunity for these lovely veterans to fly in to a significant destination and catch up with their, sadly now ever dwindling numbers of, colleagues. The weather forecast was perfectly acceptable for such a trip as was the METAR for immediately prior to departure the only possible hiccup being the 4K visibility at Stansted but that was well away from where we were headed.
Nearing Wellesbourne the visibility, whilst remaining within my legal limits, became poor and patchy requiring careful negotiation of the murkier patches. Wellesbourne asked us (there were two of us from EGBO headed for EGTH) to route well south of them as they had the Vulcan stuck on the runway. Having checked my time and chart I was not where I should have been. I decided to call D&D (London Centre) for a position fix with a view to turning back. (I was in fact on track but not as far along it as I thought)The officer at D&D was most helpful and said he would route me well south of Wellesbourne. He and I exchanged relevant information and he provided me with vectors and updates eventually taking me almost to the overhead join at Old Warden something which was greatly appreciated by both myself and my passenger. During this time I was responsible, as always, for maintaining VFR which sometimes involved heading and height variations and conversation with D&D.
The problem with the “Guard Police” started almost the second I called D&D. “You’re on guard” was heard over and over and over again. All, sounded as if they were from the USA. A firm, polite call from D&D produced a short respite but the calls soon returned. They were a serious problem. At one point I was passing information to D&D regarding the weather around Cranfield and an irate, American voice shouted at me “you are talking on guard”. Of course I was! I needed to talk to D&D and they to me. At this point I finally lost my temper (I do not do so easily) and told the interferer that I was well aware that I was talking on 121.5, gave a reason why, then told him to shut up, go away and let D&D do their job of helping me. I make NO apology for doing so.
You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so. You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers. I, and many like me, am restricted to flying beneath the cloud in conditions of which you are completely unaware. You seem incapable of understanding that in order to help someone it is necessary for the person requiring the help and D&D to speak to each other using 121.5. Do you have crystal balls to do this for you in the USA? We certainly don’t over here.
As pilots we ALL have a duty of care towards each other – your duty of care towards me that morning was totally absent.
There are two types of licence and two categories of pilot. Private Pilot’s Licence and Commercial (I include the ATPL in this), Professional and Unprofessional. PPL licence holders can be just as professional in their flying as the best CPL/ ATPL holders and some of the CPL/ ATPLs can be very unprofessional. You are the most unprofessional Commercial pilots it has ever been my misfortune to encounter. You appear to have a complete lack of care and commonsense and seem only to want to hear the sound of your own voices bleating on 121.5. As far as I am concerned your interference amounted to placing an aircraft and its passengers in danger. You are a menace to aviation as a whole and a thorough disgrace to your airlines. If I had access to the information which would enable me to identify you I would most certainly write to the airlines concerned. I shall, however, leave it to D&D London Centre to take any action they deem necessary.
To D&D at LATCC: Many thanks for your excellent service and help. I really do appreciate all you did as did my veteran passenger who is most impressed. “Such a lovely, warm, caring voice” he said, “you knew you could have confidence in him and he got us exactly where we needed to be. Wonderful.”
To the true, professional pilots who listened on 121.5, realised there was a problem and that D&D were trying to deal with it: Thank you, you are the real professionals and your watching silence was appreciated. My passenger had a wonderful day – his words and has spent the time since then boring (his description) his friends, family and work colleagues with the details of the event. He can’t wait for next year’s event!
In the meantime I am continuing with my IMC rating and have had a chat with the CFI about some revision I feel will be helpful in improving my skills.
Any comments you may wish to make should be posted on the other Guard Police thread.
I had departed from Halfpenny Green in a Cessna 152, with my passenger, an ex WW2 RAF Aircrew gentleman. We were heading for Project Propeller at Old Warden. In case you are not aware, this is the annual opportunity for these lovely veterans to fly in to a significant destination and catch up with their, sadly now ever dwindling numbers of, colleagues. The weather forecast was perfectly acceptable for such a trip as was the METAR for immediately prior to departure the only possible hiccup being the 4K visibility at Stansted but that was well away from where we were headed.
Nearing Wellesbourne the visibility, whilst remaining within my legal limits, became poor and patchy requiring careful negotiation of the murkier patches. Wellesbourne asked us (there were two of us from EGBO headed for EGTH) to route well south of them as they had the Vulcan stuck on the runway. Having checked my time and chart I was not where I should have been. I decided to call D&D (London Centre) for a position fix with a view to turning back. (I was in fact on track but not as far along it as I thought)The officer at D&D was most helpful and said he would route me well south of Wellesbourne. He and I exchanged relevant information and he provided me with vectors and updates eventually taking me almost to the overhead join at Old Warden something which was greatly appreciated by both myself and my passenger. During this time I was responsible, as always, for maintaining VFR which sometimes involved heading and height variations and conversation with D&D.
The problem with the “Guard Police” started almost the second I called D&D. “You’re on guard” was heard over and over and over again. All, sounded as if they were from the USA. A firm, polite call from D&D produced a short respite but the calls soon returned. They were a serious problem. At one point I was passing information to D&D regarding the weather around Cranfield and an irate, American voice shouted at me “you are talking on guard”. Of course I was! I needed to talk to D&D and they to me. At this point I finally lost my temper (I do not do so easily) and told the interferer that I was well aware that I was talking on 121.5, gave a reason why, then told him to shut up, go away and let D&D do their job of helping me. I make NO apology for doing so.
You self-appointed “Guard Police” are a menace and, if you carry on will eventually cause a fatal accident by your constant interfering and the stress you cause by doing so. You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers. I, and many like me, am restricted to flying beneath the cloud in conditions of which you are completely unaware. You seem incapable of understanding that in order to help someone it is necessary for the person requiring the help and D&D to speak to each other using 121.5. Do you have crystal balls to do this for you in the USA? We certainly don’t over here.
As pilots we ALL have a duty of care towards each other – your duty of care towards me that morning was totally absent.
There are two types of licence and two categories of pilot. Private Pilot’s Licence and Commercial (I include the ATPL in this), Professional and Unprofessional. PPL licence holders can be just as professional in their flying as the best CPL/ ATPL holders and some of the CPL/ ATPLs can be very unprofessional. You are the most unprofessional Commercial pilots it has ever been my misfortune to encounter. You appear to have a complete lack of care and commonsense and seem only to want to hear the sound of your own voices bleating on 121.5. As far as I am concerned your interference amounted to placing an aircraft and its passengers in danger. You are a menace to aviation as a whole and a thorough disgrace to your airlines. If I had access to the information which would enable me to identify you I would most certainly write to the airlines concerned. I shall, however, leave it to D&D London Centre to take any action they deem necessary.
To D&D at LATCC: Many thanks for your excellent service and help. I really do appreciate all you did as did my veteran passenger who is most impressed. “Such a lovely, warm, caring voice” he said, “you knew you could have confidence in him and he got us exactly where we needed to be. Wonderful.”
To the true, professional pilots who listened on 121.5, realised there was a problem and that D&D were trying to deal with it: Thank you, you are the real professionals and your watching silence was appreciated. My passenger had a wonderful day – his words and has spent the time since then boring (his description) his friends, family and work colleagues with the details of the event. He can’t wait for next year’s event!
In the meantime I am continuing with my IMC rating and have had a chat with the CFI about some revision I feel will be helpful in improving my skills.
Any comments you may wish to make should be posted on the other Guard Police thread.
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Totally agree with your views on the guard police.
As an aside, and this is no criticism on your part, maybe there is a possibility that DD can switch to a discreet frequency after the initial distress call. Situation permitting ofcourse.
As an aside, and this is no criticism on your part, maybe there is a possibility that DD can switch to a discreet frequency after the initial distress call. Situation permitting ofcourse.
DX Wombat,
Many sympathies for the unnecessary stress caused by unthinking tossers.
As an aside, why on earth was your post moved here - away from the very people it was addressed to?
Many sympathies for the unnecessary stress caused by unthinking tossers.
As an aside, why on earth was your post moved here - away from the very people it was addressed to?
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No idea why it was moved here. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have it in both forums so I am going to send a copy of this thread back there........
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Originally Posted by sleeper
... maybe there is a possibility that DD can switch to a discreet frequency after the initial distress call?
In which case, no, you can't switch frequencies.
Can somebody clarify? I'm familiar with the system, but not with the UK infrastructure.
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My sympathy Wombat, glad it worked out.
But I have to agree with sleeper, the UK's finder of lost aircraft system needs to be changed, Guard Channel does not work with the plethora of Practice Pans, etc. Guard is too important in the world of modern commercial aviation. Any thing other than genuine urgency problems need to be moved away from 121.5.
Illegal transmissions need to be prosecuted and the UKs system needs to be brought into line with the global position on guard.
But I have to agree with sleeper, the UK's finder of lost aircraft system needs to be changed, Guard Channel does not work with the plethora of Practice Pans, etc. Guard is too important in the world of modern commercial aviation. Any thing other than genuine urgency problems need to be moved away from 121.5.
Illegal transmissions need to be prosecuted and the UKs system needs to be brought into line with the global position on guard.
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Maybe, but what DX is talking about was an emergency and these idiots didn't even understand that.
The whole debate about 121.5 in the UK is seperate from this discussion, pratts who start making the "you're on guard" speech in the middle of a genuine emergency need to have their R/T licences revoked or at least have their ears checked more often.
This is the second time in recent weeks I've heard of actual emergency transmissions being blocked by a member of the guard police.
My contempt for these plonkers knows no bounds. If you hear some muppet chatting to a mate on 121.5, then I could understand the annoyance and the temptation to shut them up, but in the middle of a problem.......... Use a bit of common sense and just shut the hell up.
The whole debate about 121.5 in the UK is seperate from this discussion, pratts who start making the "you're on guard" speech in the middle of a genuine emergency need to have their R/T licences revoked or at least have their ears checked more often.
This is the second time in recent weeks I've heard of actual emergency transmissions being blocked by a member of the guard police.
My contempt for these plonkers knows no bounds. If you hear some muppet chatting to a mate on 121.5, then I could understand the annoyance and the temptation to shut them up, but in the middle of a problem.......... Use a bit of common sense and just shut the hell up.
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Totally agree. Guard Police need to shut up. Too many times they blot out real (or normally practice) transmissions. I think the main trouble is that from an airliner at FL390 or higher these UK calls are heard for 250 miles or so inside mainland Europe - Germans (as well as US) seem to try and Police 121.5 quite regularly possibly not hearing the UK ground controller and only hearing the aircraft in real or practice trouble.
My gut feel says all practice calls (not the one in question here) should be on an alternate freq. We are supposed to monitor 121.5, most times near UK airspace it is totally impracticable due the number of practice calls (and no doubt hence the guard police response). Personally I just de-select 121.5 so I can hear Box 1. Not the real solution
My gut feel says all practice calls (not the one in question here) should be on an alternate freq. We are supposed to monitor 121.5, most times near UK airspace it is totally impracticable due the number of practice calls (and no doubt hence the guard police response). Personally I just de-select 121.5 so I can hear Box 1. Not the real solution
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Originally Posted by Dogma
... plethora of Practice Pans, etc.
The problem is NOT with practice PANs, which are an essential part of practising for the day of a real emergency, and are actively encouraged by D&D.
From the description by Wombat of the shambles on 121.5, maybe the time has come for D&D to acquire some more 'judicial' clout?
Fines for anybody transmitting on 121.5 without a valid reason?
Revoking the permit to operate into the UK for those airlines with the identified "perpetrators", until they show proof the perpetrators have had their R/T licenses revoked and have been sent for re-training?
Arresting the perpetrators after landing and have them sued for "criminal conduct"?
Ah, one can but dream.
Nevertheless, from this forum one has the impression this is becoming a real problem.... So maybe D&D SHOULD be given some more clout to deal with it?
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ChristianJ - Do not preach to me please. The whole lost pilot system in the UK is no longer acceptable, Practice Pans clutter and corrupt 121.5, end of.
Alternatively do you propose changing 121.5 globally to accommodate the UKs procedures?????
We need a "clean freq" asap
Alternatively do you propose changing 121.5 globally to accommodate the UKs procedures?????
We need a "clean freq" asap
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Some years ago I was listening to the NASA audio feed of a high inclination orbit space shuttle launch.
Shortly after the external tank tank was jettisoned the crew remarked "looks like we're going to have to secure uniform, we've been advised by an RAF bomber crew that we're transmitting on an unauthorized frequency".
The shuttle in that era had a wafer switch that selected 296.8, 259.7 or 243.0 on the UHF control panel.
See: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/...bcomm/uhf.html
There is no small irony in Americans trying to enforce R/T discipline. Before 911 domestic flights rarely monitored guard and international types used it mostly for ride reports and sports scores over the water. After 911, it is monitored religiously even on domestic flights lest you be intercepted and have to fill out paperwork.
Shortly after the external tank tank was jettisoned the crew remarked "looks like we're going to have to secure uniform, we've been advised by an RAF bomber crew that we're transmitting on an unauthorized frequency".
The shuttle in that era had a wafer switch that selected 296.8, 259.7 or 243.0 on the UHF control panel.
See: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/shuttle/...bcomm/uhf.html
There is no small irony in Americans trying to enforce R/T discipline. Before 911 domestic flights rarely monitored guard and international types used it mostly for ride reports and sports scores over the water. After 911, it is monitored religiously even on domestic flights lest you be intercepted and have to fill out paperwork.
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ChristianJ - Do not preach to me please. The whole lost pilot system in the UK is no longer acceptable, Practice Pans clutter and corrupt 121.5, end of.
Alternatively do you propose changing 121.5 globally to accommodate the UKs procedures?????
We need a "clean freq" asap
Alternatively do you propose changing 121.5 globally to accommodate the UKs procedures?????
We need a "clean freq" asap
D&D recently did a survey of all transmissions on 121.5, in order to see if the very complaint that you made above was valid.
Guess what, they found that the majority (up in the 70-80-90 odd % ISTR) of calls on 121.5 were us lot up at FL300+, not the much maligned uk ppl with practice pans (which is usually included as part of the PPL course) and genuine emergencies.
So wind yer neck back in mate, and save your spleen venting for the yanks saying "you're on guard" every 5 seconds.
D&D, 121.5 and practice pans are all very much part of the current campaign to help reduce airspace incursions in the UK - would you rather that 121.5 was used or would you rather have lost PPL's wandering accross 09L approach?
It is us lot that need educating, not the UK GA community (of which I am also part).
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Dogma,
From the statistics I've seen, the "clutter" on 121.5 is from 'illegitimate' chit-chat, not from legitimate users... and I include the practice PANs in the latter category.
Yes, the frequency needs cleaning up ASAP, but NOT by eliminating practice PANs.
From the statistics I've seen, the "clutter" on 121.5 is from 'illegitimate' chit-chat, not from legitimate users... and I include the practice PANs in the latter category.
Yes, the frequency needs cleaning up ASAP, but NOT by eliminating practice PANs.
Last edited by ChristiaanJ; 6th Jun 2008 at 20:01. Reason: Typo
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Dogma, I'm afraid I have to disagree. The primary disruption I hear on 121.5 is airline pilots making inadvertent transmissions - everything from calling air traffic to calling company to talking to the passengers. The second is the local beacon manufacturers doing testing. The third most common use is airliners getting on to the correct frequency - often in the form "XXX this is YYY please call ZZZ on abc.de". That to me is an acceptable use of the frequency. Practice Pans come a long way down the list, and actual emergencies, thank God, come last. The first example is inevitable - we all make mistakes - but the incidence of it is evidence of a lack of care in radio selection. The second example is, I believe, actually criminal.
I really do think that 121.5 in the UK is primarily a GA / aerial work service in practice. Many years ago I used it most effectively to keep me out of the London Zone after getting a bit off track going round Luton Zone. I dare say that saved some trouble for airliners in the same general area. Airliners are already talking to an agency who knows who they are / where they are / what they are doing. That sounds to me to be a much better agency to call with your problem than D&D, who for all their expertise, don't know anything about you until you start talking.
Isn't the real reason for listening on 121.5 the same as mine - so as to be able to help in the event of an emergency? In which case, a pause of a few marching paces before stepping in would be sensible - wait out for D&D first, someone like me second, and if the poor guy with the problem still hasn't had a response, the words "MAYDAY RELAY THIS IS..." might just make somebody's day.
And to put all that in context, I do SAR shifts where we have to listen continuously to 121.5 in the ops room as well as in the air.
Sven
I really do think that 121.5 in the UK is primarily a GA / aerial work service in practice. Many years ago I used it most effectively to keep me out of the London Zone after getting a bit off track going round Luton Zone. I dare say that saved some trouble for airliners in the same general area. Airliners are already talking to an agency who knows who they are / where they are / what they are doing. That sounds to me to be a much better agency to call with your problem than D&D, who for all their expertise, don't know anything about you until you start talking.
Isn't the real reason for listening on 121.5 the same as mine - so as to be able to help in the event of an emergency? In which case, a pause of a few marching paces before stepping in would be sensible - wait out for D&D first, someone like me second, and if the poor guy with the problem still hasn't had a response, the words "MAYDAY RELAY THIS IS..." might just make somebody's day.
And to put all that in context, I do SAR shifts where we have to listen continuously to 121.5 in the ops room as well as in the air.
Sven
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Sound off - that was a mear clearing of the throat.
There are insects that use 121.5 for piss anting around and thats deplorable. Accidently tx on guard is an occupational hazard.
However we need to monitor guard all the time, inc the north atlantic and other remote regions. Practise Pans, etc are clutter and no longer necessary on 121.5 make it 121.4 or whatever.
PS I fly DA40 for GA fun - have gps.
121.5 is for URGENT messages for all flying craft!
There are insects that use 121.5 for piss anting around and thats deplorable. Accidently tx on guard is an occupational hazard.
However we need to monitor guard all the time, inc the north atlantic and other remote regions. Practise Pans, etc are clutter and no longer necessary on 121.5 make it 121.4 or whatever.
PS I fly DA40 for GA fun - have gps.
121.5 is for URGENT messages for all flying craft!
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DX
I thought your post was fantastic up until your seemingly anti jet pilot rant.
Whilst i agree with you and your particular use of 121.5 there are many people who do use it for some of the non correct uses as listed above. I would also like to fess up as someone who has been an occasional " your on guard", it has only been to some of the thick pilots who have.....on one occasion been singing or laughing or many of the other dumb things you hear.
I maybe alone but i think in these circumstances ,it is, to a point justified.
I have been he target of that dreaded phrase a few times and quite rightly so as i was transmitting on 121.5 by mistake a call to the FBO or calling ATC or whatever and this is where i think your comments fall down.
This is a slight on ALL (as you call it ) professional pilots and be-littles your earlier sensible and interesting heartfelt comment.
eagle 21
Best thing said so far and i think that if people listen out for two seconds before they dribble out "you're on guard" then they can make an assesment of if its a muppet, genuine mistake (like ive done a few times
.....sorry) or real emergency and then act accordingly.
Glad to hear that you landed safely DX and some of your anger is justified but some of it is misguided.
I thought your post was fantastic up until your seemingly anti jet pilot rant.
Whilst i agree with you and your particular use of 121.5 there are many people who do use it for some of the non correct uses as listed above. I would also like to fess up as someone who has been an occasional " your on guard", it has only been to some of the thick pilots who have.....on one occasion been singing or laughing or many of the other dumb things you hear.
I maybe alone but i think in these circumstances ,it is, to a point justified.
I have been he target of that dreaded phrase a few times and quite rightly so as i was transmitting on 121.5 by mistake a call to the FBO or calling ATC or whatever and this is where i think your comments fall down.
You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers.
eagle 21
The problem is down to standards, gentelmen keep up the self discipline and proffesionalism
.....sorry) or real emergency and then act accordingly.Glad to hear that you landed safely DX and some of your anger is justified but some of it is misguided.
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You sit happily in your nice, comfy, super-equipped aircraft flying along in the beautiful blue sky above the clouds with not a care in the world except perhaps what you are going to have for your next meal, or what is in the day’s newspapers.
What I do see is a (legitimate) complaint aimed at people acting in an unprofessional way by giving someone a hard time for using guard for precisely the sort of reason for which it is intended. That lack of "professionalism" is not aimed at jet pilots but at people who act in an unprofessional manner, whether they be PPL, CPL or ATPL holders.
Guard is not just for the declaration and management of emergencies, but also for the provision of aid with the aim of preventing a "problem" becoming and "emergency". The sanctimonious, self appointed Guard Police would do well to bear that in mind.