The Menaces of the "Guard Police" 31.5.08
Avoid imitations
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No need. I have just banned him.
DX Wombat, Well done on using the service and frequency as intended. It seems some so-called professional pilots (including ones who can't even spell professional) apparently can't work out how to turn down the radio volume for 121.5 for a minute or so, then turn it up again.
I operate single pilot IFR and if I can manage to monitor 121.5, they should certainly be able to, with F all to do and someone else to help them.....
In any event, legitimate chatter on 121.5 proves to the worriers that the frequency is working and that they are actually monitoring it!
The ones that really pee me off are those calling "Shanwick, Shanwick" or "Ops" a number of times. Obviously, it's not the PPL flyers doing that....
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Hi all - if you'll allow an ATCO to dip his toes into your thread! As someone who used to run GA safety days (MCASD) where OC D&D Flt would lecture on the roles and capability of their service, their view was that if there was any doubt there was no doubt - give them a call. They would rather an unnecessary call rather than an unnecessary accident/fatality!
Indeed, they used to positively encourage the use of 121.5 for training purposes as it also allows them to train and remain current. This topic has been done to death several times before here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323349
And here:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...tice+emergency
And a quote here from an actual D&D controller:
His last line says’s it all really. So to all those above FL100...please button it.
Remember the person responsible for minimising calls on 121.5 is the chap in the broom cupboard at Swanwick..the D&D controller and he'll do this by telling you that SAROPS are on!!
To all the GA - crack on - better to get the words fuddled when the donk is at idle rather than wait till it happens for real!
H&K Fred!
Indeed, they used to positively encourage the use of 121.5 for training purposes as it also allows them to train and remain current. This topic has been done to death several times before here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=323349
And here:http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...tice+emergency
And a quote here from an actual D&D controller:
Quote:
I don’t intend to get embroiled in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.
1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & receives a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his spiel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after a couple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a controller or when I am flying, if I don’t get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.
2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.
3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they weren’t confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go around.
4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!
DD
I don’t intend to get embroiled in a debate about 121.5 usage by GA pilots in the UK. It is a FACT that the huge majority of tx on 121.5 are by CAT. Some points I would like to make.
1. When a pilot mistakenly calls a ground unit on 121.5 & receives a "you're on guard" , you would not believe the amount of times he hears that response as "go ahead" and then launches into his spiel about wheelchairs etc often lasting 20 seconds or so. Surely if he got no reply the penny would drop after a couple of calls? I know that when I tx whether as a controller or when I am flying, if I don’t get a response the first thing I do is check my frequency selection.
2. As for complaints about PP calls made within the UK, sorry I have limited sympathy whilst I can hear pilots whistling, singing, chatting, asking for football scores during the world cup and us being sworn at over 121.5 by CAT etc etc. Sort that nonsense out and my view point would be far more sympathetic.
3. In the congested airspace of the UK we actively encourage GA to call D&D 121.5 when they are lost. Part of humanising 121.5 is allowing pilots to make PP calls so that they are familiar with D&D & how we can help should the need arise. If they do get lost, many pilots now quickly declare that fact early on 121.5... often they are inside CAS & we take action to exit CAS and deconflict with CAT. If they weren’t confident about calling on 121.5, they would spend more time trying to sort themselves out & CAT would be getting unexpeditious recoveries or even go around.
4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
In the 15 mins or so that this has taken me to write there has been one training fix on 121.5 and 11 CAT transmissions.... make that 13!
DD
Remember the person responsible for minimising calls on 121.5 is the chap in the broom cupboard at Swanwick..the D&D controller and he'll do this by telling you that SAROPS are on!!To all the GA - crack on - better to get the words fuddled when the donk is at idle rather than wait till it happens for real!
H&K Fred!
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4. As for the suggestion of naming & shaming, when ac tx on 121.5 we get a DF fix on that ac. The DF display sits approx 6 inches away from our radar displays which have all ORCAM squawks callsign code converted i.e. your callsign is displayed on our radar. It takes seconds to identify who is saying what........ Incidentally OC LATCC(Mil) was sat next to me a few minutes ago & he is leaning towards the idea of "naming & shaming".
BTW, Quick question for the Mods. Why has this been moved (again) from "Rumours & News"? Where in my humble opinion it would be viewed by those most at fault.
Last edited by Oxidant; 8th Jun 2008 at 02:57.
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What an interesting thread. My hat goes off to DX for having the wherewithal t realise she had a problem and make the call. Also impressive service from D&D above and beyond the call of duty methinks. Well done guys.
As for the Guard Police, well enough has been said of those idiots.
As for the Guard Police, well enough has been said of those idiots.
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Dogma
Your constant protestations that practise pans etc clutter up 121.5 is complete rubbish; end of!, as you put it.
D&D likes PPL'ers whilst training to know what to do and to cal them for (practise) help. Actually, D&D sometimes called ATC where i flew from and asked the tower to ask the flying schools to give them a call.
It is vitally important that the pilots who are navigating VFR around the country know how to get help and understand that it will not get them into trouble by doing so.
And I speak as a commercial pilot and FI.
D&D likes PPL'ers whilst training to know what to do and to cal them for (practise) help. Actually, D&D sometimes called ATC where i flew from and asked the tower to ask the flying schools to give them a call.
It is vitally important that the pilots who are navigating VFR around the country know how to get help and understand that it will not get them into trouble by doing so.
And I speak as a commercial pilot and FI.
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I recollect a report from a commercial pilot who said that he had turned-off 121.5 because of the endless Practice Pans on 121.5. ISTR that the CAA queried with him exactly how many there had been at 0400 on a Sunday morning.
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If I was a student or inexperienced PPL reading this, the hostility displayed by some 'professional' pilots might make me think twice about calling D&D if I got into trouble. For God's sake don't
I've had my fair share of flying 152s in poor VMC, but now spend my days flying airliners in class G airspace. Nothing worries me more than the thought of a light aircraft stumbling around low level, 'uncertain of position' but not talking to anyone in case they get shouted at.
I'll just have to live with the trauma of turning box 2 down for 30 seconds.
I've had my fair share of flying 152s in poor VMC, but now spend my days flying airliners in class G airspace. Nothing worries me more than the thought of a light aircraft stumbling around low level, 'uncertain of position' but not talking to anyone in case they get shouted at.
I'll just have to live with the trauma of turning box 2 down for 30 seconds.
Thread Starter
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G SXTY, I couldn't agree more. It can be frightening enough without the added stress of the highly UNprofessional commercial pilots yarping on at you because you are transmitting on 121.5. It needs to be stopped as soon as possible before someone is killed as a result of this interference.
To anyone who may have a problem when flying PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE call D&D as soon as you realise things are not right. They don't bite, they are not some sort of aviation Police Force, they are NOT there to criticise you - and they won't. What they will do is treat you courteously, kindly and very efficiently. You will NOT be in trouble for calling them but you could well be if you don't. Take absolutely NO notice of the unprofessional commercial pilots who may pester you, they are, as I have said previously, highly unprofessional, lacking in their implementation of their duty of care towards you and a thorough disgrace to the companies for which they fly.
To anyone who may have a problem when flying PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE call D&D as soon as you realise things are not right. They don't bite, they are not some sort of aviation Police Force, they are NOT there to criticise you - and they won't. What they will do is treat you courteously, kindly and very efficiently. You will NOT be in trouble for calling them but you could well be if you don't. Take absolutely NO notice of the unprofessional commercial pilots who may pester you, they are, as I have said previously, highly unprofessional, lacking in their implementation of their duty of care towards you and a thorough disgrace to the companies for which they fly.
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The answer is simple:
If you have the capacity when you are on guard and the someone interupts to remind you say the immortal words:
"Aircraft transmitting, say your call sign"
If you have the capacity when you are on guard and the someone interupts to remind you say the immortal words:
"Aircraft transmitting, say your call sign"
Somebody remind me, what callsign do D&D use when they transmit? I assume it's something that leaves the listener in no doubt of who they are and that in the UK they own the frequency?
G
G
What's ambiguous about "London Centre" - it sounds firmly "official"! If I heard a conversation on RT with "LA Centre" (I've no idea if such a callsign exists) I'd stay out of the way and let them get on with it, unless I had my own emergency to talk about.
G
G
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DX I assume you are a light aircraft pilot? I fly both light aircraft and airliners and am just as sick to death of Guard Police as you. I held a short discussion with London Centre on 121.5 yesterday to report an ELT signal I was picking up from FL400 and was chastised by a "colleague" for being "on guard". Unfortunately he was British so it's not just limited to the Americans.
Guard Police are in a minority but I agree we hear it so often it sounds like every airline pilot in the world has joined in.
Guard Police are in a minority but I agree we hear it so often it sounds like every airline pilot in the world has joined in.
D&D callsign 'London centre'
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Originally Posted by kiltie
Guard Police are in a minority but I agree we hear it so often it sounds like every airline pilot in the world has joined in.
For every "guard police" idiot, how many "regulars" monitor 121.5 and do NOT interfere?
T'is true that a "small minority" can make a "big mess".
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What's ambiguous about "London Centre" - it sounds firmly "official"! If I heard a conversation on RT with "LA Centre" (I've no idea if such a callsign exists) I'd stay out of the way and let them get on with it, unless I had my own emergency to talk about.
For someone not familiar with this UK particularity it can very easily sound as if someone was interfering with what, in the US, is a very important frequency. Don't forget, it's the UK that is non-standard here. No other country (AFAIK) has anything like D&D. Everywhere else I at least have flown (and that includes quite a few places), you do get a FIS (or RIS in the UK - another deviation from standard...) w/o problems, same, usually for CAS transits. No need for D&D.
I am not trying to slag off D&D here, btw, but it just seems weird that this has to be done on 121.5 with an ambiguous (at least in an international context) callsign.
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Erm, can we get back on track? It seems to me that we are left with the following:
The UK chooses to do its alerting and fixing service (an ICAO requirement) on 121.5. Unique across the world, this facility is second to none but, at the same time, rather upsets those who do not understand the capability.
CAT has rarely used/listened to 121.5 unless it has been a chat freq, football score retrieval system etc etc. In recent years, CAT has been required to monitor 121.5 to avoid potentially embarrassing situations.
Under ICAO principles, it is the sovereign state or designated FIR authority who has the responsibility to manage/police 121.5. I can't recollect any of the Annexes derogating that authority to bored aircrew.
The bit I don't get is how a pilot cannot manage his/her comm box such that 121.5 is whispering in the background whilst they monitor their primary freq at 95dBa. As an air traffiker (and somewhat low-average PPL), I'm quite happy juggling a couple of freqs at a time.
D&D controllers should be a little more forthright. For too long they have bitten their lips when some halfwit has chuntered on the emergency freq as the controller tries to help a pilot in a pickle.
The UK isnt going to change it's stance; why should it?
The UK chooses to do its alerting and fixing service (an ICAO requirement) on 121.5. Unique across the world, this facility is second to none but, at the same time, rather upsets those who do not understand the capability.
CAT has rarely used/listened to 121.5 unless it has been a chat freq, football score retrieval system etc etc. In recent years, CAT has been required to monitor 121.5 to avoid potentially embarrassing situations.
Under ICAO principles, it is the sovereign state or designated FIR authority who has the responsibility to manage/police 121.5. I can't recollect any of the Annexes derogating that authority to bored aircrew.
The bit I don't get is how a pilot cannot manage his/her comm box such that 121.5 is whispering in the background whilst they monitor their primary freq at 95dBa. As an air traffiker (and somewhat low-average PPL), I'm quite happy juggling a couple of freqs at a time.
D&D controllers should be a little more forthright. For too long they have bitten their lips when some halfwit has chuntered on the emergency freq as the controller tries to help a pilot in a pickle.
The UK isnt going to change it's stance; why should it?