LARS, Farnborough
I thought this discussion (and hence my earlier comment) was about the intermittent nature of the new Farnborough LARS services North and East of London. In our neck of the woods, we don't have much low-level jet traffic but we do have the occasional helicopter at 800' where Farnborough probably can't see them! Don't worry chaps, I always keep my eyes wide open, especially around the south-west of London!
I flew Compton Abbas to Fairoaks and Biggin the other day and Farnborough West were very busy due to a heck of lot of light aircraft, gliders and microlights around West and SW London. I can imagine getting a Citation through that lot might have been interesting!
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Silenthandover,
I must admit that as much as Farnborough are generally always helpful and always very busy I do feel that quite often they are TOO helpful.
I spend many a day briefing my students as to the facets of FIS and then when working Farnborough they often use R/t phraseology that sounds very similar to a RIS.
Such as "G####, you are identified, traffic similar level passing down your righthand side altitude un-verified, Flight Information Service......."
Now wea are all human and I would suspect if I was sat at the scope, my natural reaction would be to tell pilots what they may not see themselves. Its all part of duty of care etc. However this does semm to breed a culture amoungst us pilots that a FIS is more than it is.
Maybe if LARS units made an uncomfortable stance by NOT telling pilots of other traffic "on radar" etc then it may free you up to give genuine RIS to people that request it?? At least us pilots would then be getting a FIS "as advertised". Don't get me wrong I love all the info - thankyou very very kindly. However it maybe doing more harm than good.
I have noted of late that a much better phrase is being used - "numerous contacts believed to be in your area, altitudes and types unknown". You have provided a FIS by law and got the sphincter contracting of the pilot - at last - THEY LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!
I must admit that as much as Farnborough are generally always helpful and always very busy I do feel that quite often they are TOO helpful.
I spend many a day briefing my students as to the facets of FIS and then when working Farnborough they often use R/t phraseology that sounds very similar to a RIS.
Such as "G####, you are identified, traffic similar level passing down your righthand side altitude un-verified, Flight Information Service......."
Now wea are all human and I would suspect if I was sat at the scope, my natural reaction would be to tell pilots what they may not see themselves. Its all part of duty of care etc. However this does semm to breed a culture amoungst us pilots that a FIS is more than it is.
Maybe if LARS units made an uncomfortable stance by NOT telling pilots of other traffic "on radar" etc then it may free you up to give genuine RIS to people that request it?? At least us pilots would then be getting a FIS "as advertised". Don't get me wrong I love all the info - thankyou very very kindly. However it maybe doing more harm than good.
I have noted of late that a much better phrase is being used - "numerous contacts believed to be in your area, altitudes and types unknown". You have provided a FIS by law and got the sphincter contracting of the pilot - at last - THEY LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!
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Any information regarding relative bearing obtained using a radar set is Radar Information. If such radar information is provided as a service then that service is a Radar Information Service. The Pilot/Controller agreement is required to reflect that. It is perfectly clear from definition that Flight Information Service is a non-radar service. Why, then, are the two services confused so often by air traffic service providers? Do some not understand the difference? If they do and elect to upgrade the service at their own instigatation then the service should be upgraded accordingly for the duration of the upgrade no matter how long or short. Either it is a radar service or it is not. There should be no doubt as to which service is being provided either in the mind of the service recipient or the service provider.
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have noted of late that a much better phrase is being used - "numerous contacts believed to be in your area, altitudes and types unknown". You have provided a FIS by law and got the sphincter contracting of the pilot - at last - THEY LOOK OUT THE WINDOW!
Fact to many pilots head down GPS tracking, the Cirrus effect, lovely glass screen but for God's sake LOOK OUT THE GOD DAMN WINDOW
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"Flight Information Service IN THE UK is supposedly non - radar, but according to ICAO and some European countries, radar can be used."
This is still a grey area even in the proposed new ATSOCA names and procedures coming soon.
Basic Service - Controllers and FISOs may provide a Basic Service. Controllers may utilise ATS surveillance system derived information in the provision of a Basic Service.
This is still a grey area even in the proposed new ATSOCA names and procedures coming soon.
Basic Service - Controllers and FISOs may provide a Basic Service. Controllers may utilise ATS surveillance system derived information in the provision of a Basic Service.
Still a grey area IN THE UK because the powers that be choose to ignore the guidance in ICAO Doc 4444 para 8.11, which descibes the use of radar in the provision of both Flight Information Service and Air Traffic Advisory Service.
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In the traditional British way, the CAA consulted to death rather than just implement the international standard/recommended practice. Go to various places in Europe and get a FIS which, remarkably, resembles our RIS. 
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They were working well today, though they couldn't upgrade me from FIS to RIS due to the Heathrow RADAR head being down for maintenance. (Was doing an IMC detail, in the soup, so RIS would have been more appropriate). Having said that, I was given a few contacts to be aware of. Another a/c in the area also had me on their TCAS. I guess we could have just had a chat amongst ourselves and sorted out which bit of the cloud layer we each wanted to use!
I try to use the service every time I leave the circuit, provided it's within their watch times. I just wish everyone in the area would call, so that the service is comprehensive. I happened to mention the other day that it was fairly quiet, the resonse was
'there's a lot out there, but not talking to me'.
'Shame', I said.
TheOddOne
I try to use the service every time I leave the circuit, provided it's within their watch times. I just wish everyone in the area would call, so that the service is comprehensive. I happened to mention the other day that it was fairly quiet, the resonse was
'there's a lot out there, but not talking to me'.
'Shame', I said.
TheOddOne
At various times today I worked a total of 4 Hawks, 2 Gnats, 1 Strikemaster, 1 Hunter, 1 Tornado and 1 Harrier all doing more than 250kts. With traffic like that flashing about under the LTMA, it's in your best interests to give us a call!!
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> it's in your best interests to give us a call!!
I did, but as before, I didn't get any answer. Called 4 times, gave up and went back to Headcorn.
I wil try again next time though.
I did, but as before, I didn't get any answer. Called 4 times, gave up and went back to Headcorn.
I wil try again next time though.
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Go to various places in Europe and get a FIS which, remarkably, resembles our RIS
Coming back from a recent trip to Hungary (radar FIS), via Austria (radar FIS), Germany and France (both radar FIS as stated), it was a real let down entering London Information (no radar) to be asked to repeat the standard mantra that "I acknowledge that I will avoid controlled airspace" etc etc. What a load of boll**ks. This is just a stupid sop instigated by their 'health & safety' advisor - but what is the point of this nonsense ??
Either I have prepared properly for the flight and know exactly where I am and what height/route to follow or I am a total imbecile (who forgot to check sufficient fuel for flight, left the gear down, doors open, flys open etc) in which case what the hell does it matter if I confirm back that all will be fine . . . .as i'm going to bust airspace anyway !! What a pleasure it was to get shot of them just past Lydd and to switch to the new Farnborough East frequency. It may not be nation wide (as it is in the rest of Europe as far as I can tell), but it was a great service gratefully received in v.busy airspace. I vote for them taking over the rest of the country ASAP and confining London Information to the knackers yard.
(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime
)
Last edited by drambuster; 7th Jun 2008 at 07:28. Reason: typo
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Hi Drambuster i will pass your Feedback to the ATSAs at Swanwick who work the FIR position - a very profeesional bunch who are very limited in what they can provide because the CAA will not allow them to use radar to provide their service.
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Quote...."
(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime )Unquote
Thanks for the kind remarks....we are only doing the same as London but not as busy and therefore able to give a bit more time to our customers!!
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(but, for the record, I think Scottish Information is just great and would have them as my wing man anytime )Unquote
Thanks for the kind remarks....we are only doing the same as London but not as busy and therefore able to give a bit more time to our customers!!
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Went for the £100 coffee at Andrewsfield on Thursday and making my way back to our strip near Cambridge I wondered which of the various services to use. In the end I squawked 0013 and listened out on Essex on the basis that the airpace is down to 1500ft and I didn't want to infringe. Would I have been better off with Farnborough East, assuming they were operational?
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Shockingly perhaps, I do belive the Uk is the only country, in Europe at least, which define different levels of FIS. In my neck of the woods VFR flights can only get FIS, and it is (rulebook wise) no business of the pilot how the information is obtained by the ATSU. (In practice it does of course)
But then we have airspace structure a bit closer to common practice in the civilized parts of the world
We let the airspace class dictate the service
But then we have airspace structure a bit closer to common practice in the civilized parts of the world
We let the airspace class dictate the service
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Thanks for all the comments about the Farnbrough LARS Service, we are working hard to fully train the last few team members and closures should reduce.
We are having some difficulties with low level RTF coverage on the North sector and our engineers are investigating it to see what we can do to improve it.
One difficulty for us is, if you call and can't be heard, we don't know. If this happens and you have the time it would be really helpful if you could drop us an email at [email protected] and let us know brief details of location, height and route please.
We are having some difficulties with low level RTF coverage on the North sector and our engineers are investigating it to see what we can do to improve it.
One difficulty for us is, if you call and can't be heard, we don't know. If this happens and you have the time it would be really helpful if you could drop us an email at [email protected] and let us know brief details of location, height and route please.
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