Oban/Glenforsa News
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MadJock:
Microlighters - or anyone who has a Rotax - are well versed in petrol transport rules.
Here is the British Microlight Aircraft Association link to HSE approved rule statement:
British Microlight Aircraft Association,Information library,Miscellaneous,Petroleum FAQs
May be of use against the numpties!
Microlighters - or anyone who has a Rotax - are well versed in petrol transport rules.
Here is the British Microlight Aircraft Association link to HSE approved rule statement:
British Microlight Aircraft Association,Information library,Miscellaneous,Petroleum FAQs
May be of use against the numpties!
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Sorry I deleted the last post after it turned out to be a ploy of TLC.
I know there was a 45-50ltr thing in there somewhere.
I must admit when I shifted fuel it was in a 40t tanker.
What a stupid daft piece of local politics.
I know there was a 45-50ltr thing in there somewhere.
I must admit when I shifted fuel it was in a 40t tanker.
What a stupid daft piece of local politics.
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All,
This is the simple truth!
The middle end of GA is on it's backside and this has been very evident at Oban. There is also an influx of the middle end guys and gals moving to the lighter end which is generally powered by a Rotax variant of engine.
Paul is feeling the pinch at Oban. Before he found microlighters and such like an awkward inconvenience as they generally uplifted very little fuel of him making it less than worth while. Now he is using this sole supplier status to harness a market he wasn't interested in before and forcing them to use Avgas.
All that he will achieve by this is less people coming to Oban.
CWW, Your sentence should read that the elf and safety were informed of this fuel scandal on Mull due to the fact TLC informed them as he was most upset his lips were not wet from the fuel returns from the Yaks.
If he doesn't sell Mogas on the field and is not prepared too ,I see an opening for someone else to do it.
Regards
MF
This is the simple truth!
The middle end of GA is on it's backside and this has been very evident at Oban. There is also an influx of the middle end guys and gals moving to the lighter end which is generally powered by a Rotax variant of engine.
Paul is feeling the pinch at Oban. Before he found microlighters and such like an awkward inconvenience as they generally uplifted very little fuel of him making it less than worth while. Now he is using this sole supplier status to harness a market he wasn't interested in before and forcing them to use Avgas.
All that he will achieve by this is less people coming to Oban.
CWW, Your sentence should read that the elf and safety were informed of this fuel scandal on Mull due to the fact TLC informed them as he was most upset his lips were not wet from the fuel returns from the Yaks.
If he doesn't sell Mogas on the field and is not prepared too ,I see an opening for someone else to do it.
Regards
MF
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It appears Argyle and Bute have succeeded in removing a local radio presenter who was critical of their activities.
Argyll News: Council pressured Oban FM to lose popular – but critical – presenter | ForArgyll Mobile Version
George Berry, the presenter of community radio station, Oban FM’s popular Sunday Morning with George Berry show, has given way to severe pressure to stand down and will no longer present the show.
There are many oddities about this situation. The first is that the punishment does not fit the ‘crime’.
The second is the role of Argyll and Bute Council in the evolving situation of Mr Berry’s departure.
There are many oddities about this situation. The first is that the punishment does not fit the ‘crime’.
The second is the role of Argyll and Bute Council in the evolving situation of Mr Berry’s departure.
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If he doesn't sell Mogas on the field and is not prepared too ,I see an opening for someone else to do it.
GS
)
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Everyone on this forum should drop a note to the council quoting the CAA safety sense leaflet outlining the use of Mogas. And ask why the council are dictating policy on what people use in their aircraft based on self interested lobbying. And using an Air BP leaflet to back up the argument really defies belief.
As has been stated above many engines benefit from Mogas compared with Avgas. One could argue this move actually jeopardises safety. Indeed one could draw parallels with cars. Are the council next going to dictate that diesel is less flamable than petrol so we should all put diesel in our cars. Because BP said so because they make more money on it!!!!!
I hope this makes everyone wake up and realise that, despite being very good for the airfield IN THE PAST, Paul seems to be hell bent on destroying it now. I for one shall not uplift Avgas from him again and haven't since his last little tantrum.
As has been stated above many engines benefit from Mogas compared with Avgas. One could argue this move actually jeopardises safety. Indeed one could draw parallels with cars. Are the council next going to dictate that diesel is less flamable than petrol so we should all put diesel in our cars. Because BP said so because they make more money on it!!!!!
I hope this makes everyone wake up and realise that, despite being very good for the airfield IN THE PAST, Paul seems to be hell bent on destroying it now. I for one shall not uplift Avgas from him again and haven't since his last little tantrum.
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A&BC letter
CONFIRMATION OF APPROVED AVIATION FUEL SUPPLY AT OBAN AIRPORT
I am writing to inform you that in recent weeks the Council has undertaken research into the scope for the provision of a quality assured supply of Mogas at Oban Airport. The Council's fuel supplier, Total Logistic Concepts (TLC) has confirmed to the Council previously that they cannot secure from avaition fuel suppliers in the UK a quality assured source of Mogas.
In written correspondence received on 12 July 2011, Mr. Andrew Glendinning of AirBP's Fuel Quality Team confirmed that :-
"AirBP does not recommend or supply mogas for aviation use due mainly to the lack of "aviation quality" quality control during manufacture and distribution and the sheer variability in fuel formulation depending on the source refinery"
This opinion is shared by other industry experts who have been consulted by the Council.
The Council has a duty of care towards aircraft operators based at or visiting Oban Airport and must ensure that fuel supplied to aircraft at the airport is from a quality assured source. The Council fulfils this duty of care through it's exclusive fuel provider in Total Logistic Concepts (TLC), who supplies quality assured Avgas at the airport.
It is understood that some aircraft operators based at or visiting Oban Airport are fuelling their aircraft using non aviation specific fuel which is procured from sources outwith the airport. This practice must cease forthwith.
The Council has approached TLC to discuss the logistics of supplying fuel to all light aircraft based at Oban Airport and have had positive discussions regarding the potential provision of a reduced fuel tarrif for Avgas for local fliers.
The Council's primary responsibility at Oban Airport is it's duty of care for air safety.
Airport and aircraft safety is however a responibility which all fliers based at or visiting Oban Airport share. The Council, through it's exclusive fuel supplier, ensures that aircraft have access to a quality assured aviation specific fuel source at the airport. All fliers based at or visiting Oban Airport must therefore use the Avgas fuel supply provided by TLC if they wish to fuel their aircraft at the airport.
If you have any questions regarding this communication, then please do not hesitate to get in touch.
Yours faithfully
AJL Mactaggart
Executive Director
Development and Infrastructure Services.
There you have it! Reading that doesn't seem like TLC to me!
Apparently the CAA saw people fuelling from plastic cans at Oban and raised the matter with the Council.
With pilots bringing a large quantity (alleged 2000 litres) onto Glenforsa with full approval of the council's man I'd imagine it caused panic all round at council HQ. Probably brought it right into focus. Covering themselves from any liability regarding the use of Mogas would seem to be the aim.
Given that statement from AirBP, makes you wonder why you'd take the risk to save some cash. Or do you buy aeroplane parts at B&Q too ??
I am writing to inform you that in recent weeks the Council has undertaken research into the scope for the provision of a quality assured supply of Mogas at Oban Airport. The Council's fuel supplier, Total Logistic Concepts (TLC) has confirmed to the Council previously that they cannot secure from avaition fuel suppliers in the UK a quality assured source of Mogas.
In written correspondence received on 12 July 2011, Mr. Andrew Glendinning of AirBP's Fuel Quality Team confirmed that :-
"AirBP does not recommend or supply mogas for aviation use due mainly to the lack of "aviation quality" quality control during manufacture and distribution and the sheer variability in fuel formulation depending on the source refinery"
This opinion is shared by other industry experts who have been consulted by the Council.
The Council has a duty of care towards aircraft operators based at or visiting Oban Airport and must ensure that fuel supplied to aircraft at the airport is from a quality assured source. The Council fulfils this duty of care through it's exclusive fuel provider in Total Logistic Concepts (TLC), who supplies quality assured Avgas at the airport.
It is understood that some aircraft operators based at or visiting Oban Airport are fuelling their aircraft using non aviation specific fuel which is procured from sources outwith the airport. This practice must cease forthwith.
The Council has approached TLC to discuss the logistics of supplying fuel to all light aircraft based at Oban Airport and have had positive discussions regarding the potential provision of a reduced fuel tarrif for Avgas for local fliers.
The Council's primary responsibility at Oban Airport is it's duty of care for air safety.
Airport and aircraft safety is however a responibility which all fliers based at or visiting Oban Airport share. The Council, through it's exclusive fuel supplier, ensures that aircraft have access to a quality assured aviation specific fuel source at the airport. All fliers based at or visiting Oban Airport must therefore use the Avgas fuel supply provided by TLC if they wish to fuel their aircraft at the airport.
If you have any questions regarding this communication, then please do not hesitate to get in touch.
Yours faithfully
AJL Mactaggart
Executive Director
Development and Infrastructure Services.
There you have it! Reading that doesn't seem like TLC to me!
Apparently the CAA saw people fuelling from plastic cans at Oban and raised the matter with the Council.
With pilots bringing a large quantity (alleged 2000 litres) onto Glenforsa with full approval of the council's man I'd imagine it caused panic all round at council HQ. Probably brought it right into focus. Covering themselves from any liability regarding the use of Mogas would seem to be the aim.
Given that statement from AirBP, makes you wonder why you'd take the risk to save some cash. Or do you buy aeroplane parts at B&Q too ??
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Also makes you wonder why all those Mogas powered aircraft are not falling out the sky. Also why has the insurance companies not mitigated this risk and had all microlights run on Avgas. Pure subversion of a weak council with TLC calling the shots!
With a saving of nearly a pound a litre it would be strange to run your aircraft on a less efficient fuel and with the increased maintenance costs make no sense at all. Who is set to profit from all this the council or TLC?
As for aircraft parts that comment is childish and shows arrogance and contempt for the lighter end of GA.
You keep yourself happy now Good Morning and I will count the pennies I save from not using your Avgas.
Regards
MF26
With a saving of nearly a pound a litre it would be strange to run your aircraft on a less efficient fuel and with the increased maintenance costs make no sense at all. Who is set to profit from all this the council or TLC?
As for aircraft parts that comment is childish and shows arrogance and contempt for the lighter end of GA.
You keep yourself happy now Good Morning and I will count the pennies I save from not using your Avgas.
Regards
MF26
Last edited by madflyer26; 13th Aug 2011 at 05:53.
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Not a question........a statement...............Avgas is KNOWN to damage Rotax engines. Even small Continental/Lycoming engines are known to run better with less deposits than Avgas. Will you be responsible for refusing to allow a Rotax engined aircraft to fuel with mogas/..or refuse him the fuel he/she needs to get to the nearest mogas airfiled?
You're a bunch of Eedjits and here is a tip for you.........Try using more then 1/2 a percent of your brain cells and stop listening to only one point of view.
Consultation..............consultation.....consultation...th en act on behalf of the people not person
You're a bunch of Eedjits and here is a tip for you.........Try using more then 1/2 a percent of your brain cells and stop listening to only one point of view.
Consultation..............consultation.....consultation...th en act on behalf of the people not person
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Good morning Good Morning, and welcome to Pprune.
Welcome to the world of Rotax too, please come in to Strathaven and visit us.
Unleaded fuel - in paticular in Rotax engines, but also in others such as some light aircraft - is permitted by the UK Civil Aviation Authority under certain conditions.
These include testing for ethanol and not flying at high altitudes, for instance. The operator also has to enter in the logbook the source of the fuel, so that if anything goes wrong the fuel source can be traced. (To my knowledge, this has never been necessary)
Pilots are also responsible for a lot of other things which help create aviation safety, so the CAA's decision to give them responsibility over fuel approval is nothing new.
The same applies to engines in Permit to Fly aircraft. My Rotax 912 - which is the UL version of the certified 912! - says it is not designed for aviation use!! As for the two-strokes!!! Again, back to pilot responsibility.
It is, actually, a criminal offense to fly unsafely (see the ANO).
ABC's arguement that they would be acessories to a crime if they were to allow the supply of Mogas is a little extreme.
First, it is not a crime! The CAA permit it.
Second, it is not part of ABC's "duty of care". Or does ABC want to test visiting aircraft for Mogas, then see GPS readouts showing what height they flew at en route to Connel, check pilot's medicals, validity of licences and ratings (that would be a laugh in NPPL/micro land since the CAA don't even seem to know!) etc etc.
Don't need to check mine.
ABC are either a**holes for implementing this off their own bat, or ABC are a**holes for drawing up a fuel supply contract with a 3rd party that allows the 3rd party to force them to do this.
And I can't be a**sed with a**holes! So you won't see me at Connel.
Welcome to the world of Rotax too, please come in to Strathaven and visit us.
Unleaded fuel - in paticular in Rotax engines, but also in others such as some light aircraft - is permitted by the UK Civil Aviation Authority under certain conditions.
These include testing for ethanol and not flying at high altitudes, for instance. The operator also has to enter in the logbook the source of the fuel, so that if anything goes wrong the fuel source can be traced. (To my knowledge, this has never been necessary)
Pilots are also responsible for a lot of other things which help create aviation safety, so the CAA's decision to give them responsibility over fuel approval is nothing new.
The same applies to engines in Permit to Fly aircraft. My Rotax 912 - which is the UL version of the certified 912! - says it is not designed for aviation use!! As for the two-strokes!!! Again, back to pilot responsibility.
It is, actually, a criminal offense to fly unsafely (see the ANO).
ABC's arguement that they would be acessories to a crime if they were to allow the supply of Mogas is a little extreme.
First, it is not a crime! The CAA permit it.
Second, it is not part of ABC's "duty of care". Or does ABC want to test visiting aircraft for Mogas, then see GPS readouts showing what height they flew at en route to Connel, check pilot's medicals, validity of licences and ratings (that would be a laugh in NPPL/micro land since the CAA don't even seem to know!) etc etc.
Don't need to check mine.
ABC are either a**holes for implementing this off their own bat, or ABC are a**holes for drawing up a fuel supply contract with a 3rd party that allows the 3rd party to force them to do this.
And I can't be a**sed with a**holes! So you won't see me at Connel.
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ABC have no place dictating what fuel an aircraft can use. If they don't want to officially supply it fine, but what next. Sitting at a 'petrol station making you put diesel in your car. 'But it's a petrol' you say. Yes but BP make more on diesel so they've told us to tell you to use it.'
Avgas is the wrong fuel for certain engines. Period. To be dictated to by TLC using some rubbish Air BP produce is a disgrace.
Will they be grounding anything which flies in on Mogas? Where does the airports newly found duty of care end?
Everyone concerned should write to ABC and the airport stating the facts, and demonstrating that Avgas is indeed more dangerous in certain engines.
Avgas is the wrong fuel for certain engines. Period. To be dictated to by TLC using some rubbish Air BP produce is a disgrace.
Will they be grounding anything which flies in on Mogas? Where does the airports newly found duty of care end?
Everyone concerned should write to ABC and the airport stating the facts, and demonstrating that Avgas is indeed more dangerous in certain engines.
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Sywell, the venue for Aero Expo and the LAA rally, is just one of the airfields that sell mogas:
Sywell Aerodrome - Charges
AeroExpo UK 2012 - General Aviation Event, the CAA was an exhibitor AeroExpo UK - Exhibitor List
rally 2011 home page
Sywell Aerodrome - Charges
AeroExpo UK 2012 - General Aviation Event, the CAA was an exhibitor AeroExpo UK - Exhibitor List
rally 2011 home page
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Ah MF you won't affect my profit and loss account because when I looked five minutes ago my business was not involved in the supply of fuel anywhere far less Oban Airport.
Seems funny though that you are happy to accuse someone else of looking after their pennies as if it were a crime and yet quite happy to admit to the self same trait. A pound a litre saving you suggest?
The fact of the matter is that fuel from a garage forecourt has no quality assurance that it is what it says on the pumps. You take your chance and unless you have a lab test it before pouring it into your tanks you have no way of knowing. Akin to buying bolts for an aeroplane at B&Q.
I know of one garage owner who paid for his house by diluting four star with two star for years! Not sure what his son does now but kerosene would seem a likely substitute.
As I say you have no way of knowing. That's what I suspect the pound covers.
Anyway it appears Total may come to the rescue with an approved source of unleaded which will have full quality assurance for aviation. Turns out it's expected to be a few pence cheaper than 100LL. Probably represents the cost of not adding the TEL. Because the cost of distributing a quality assured fuel is pretty much the same regardless of the cost of the raw material.
And if it becomes widely available just watch CAA approvals or permits to use anything else evaporate.
And at the end of the day the airport is under the ownership and control of A&BC.
Their baw, their game !!
Seems funny though that you are happy to accuse someone else of looking after their pennies as if it were a crime and yet quite happy to admit to the self same trait. A pound a litre saving you suggest?
The fact of the matter is that fuel from a garage forecourt has no quality assurance that it is what it says on the pumps. You take your chance and unless you have a lab test it before pouring it into your tanks you have no way of knowing. Akin to buying bolts for an aeroplane at B&Q.
I know of one garage owner who paid for his house by diluting four star with two star for years! Not sure what his son does now but kerosene would seem a likely substitute.
As I say you have no way of knowing. That's what I suspect the pound covers.
Anyway it appears Total may come to the rescue with an approved source of unleaded which will have full quality assurance for aviation. Turns out it's expected to be a few pence cheaper than 100LL. Probably represents the cost of not adding the TEL. Because the cost of distributing a quality assured fuel is pretty much the same regardless of the cost of the raw material.
And if it becomes widely available just watch CAA approvals or permits to use anything else evaporate.
And at the end of the day the airport is under the ownership and control of A&BC.
Their baw, their game !!
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This opinion is shared by other industry experts who have been consulted by the Council.
And at the end of the day the airport is under the ownership and control of A&BC.
And as for its thier toy set. It must be great owning such a lovely runway with hardly anyone using it. And then making rules up which mean there are even less folk using it. Whats the objective? a couple of TP's a month in the summer and the islander.
Has anyone local thought about running for election to the council that has a clue to try and get the nonsense by all parties sorted out?
Banning mogas isn't going to increase sales of Avgas either it will just mean less aircraft use the field and the aircraft that were palnning to visit will go to other fields where they can nip down to the garage.
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Good Morning,
You seem to be concerned about bolts from B&Q.
Actually, there are a good few hundred aircraft on the UK register for which that is perfectly legal.
And, as mentioned, the CAA seem happy with the use of Mogas in aircraft too - under certain conditions.
Shame AB Cooncil know more about aircraft, aircraft fuel and B&Q than the national regulator, the CAA!
ps In the aid of expanding knowledge, I refer to sub-115kg SSDR aircraft - such as the Alatus motor-glider cthat one of our members bought for £14,000 second hand - as ones you can use B&Q as a parts source for. (You can also use the mountain bike shop as a source of Magura Julie brake pads for our £60,000 C42 Ikarus used for ab initio flight training - and they are not a certified supplier either! Perhaps they have taken Magura Marta ones and put them in the wrong bag, or got "look-a-like ones", like your dodgy pal with his 2* and 4* - but they are still a legal source)
People who can afford that on a purely fun basis are the people you desire as customers, I would have thought.
I should be happy, because it is who I want as customers and people around Glasgow, as I have posted before, used to base at Connel. Perhaps they may now come to Strathaven. But I am unhappy, because such a glorious resource is being wasted and people with the courage to set up small businesses and take risk are now being faced with un-necessary costs that may make their business plan unviable.
Madness.
You seem to be concerned about bolts from B&Q.
Actually, there are a good few hundred aircraft on the UK register for which that is perfectly legal.
And, as mentioned, the CAA seem happy with the use of Mogas in aircraft too - under certain conditions.
Shame AB Cooncil know more about aircraft, aircraft fuel and B&Q than the national regulator, the CAA!
ps In the aid of expanding knowledge, I refer to sub-115kg SSDR aircraft - such as the Alatus motor-glider cthat one of our members bought for £14,000 second hand - as ones you can use B&Q as a parts source for. (You can also use the mountain bike shop as a source of Magura Julie brake pads for our £60,000 C42 Ikarus used for ab initio flight training - and they are not a certified supplier either! Perhaps they have taken Magura Marta ones and put them in the wrong bag, or got "look-a-like ones", like your dodgy pal with his 2* and 4* - but they are still a legal source)
People who can afford that on a purely fun basis are the people you desire as customers, I would have thought.
I should be happy, because it is who I want as customers and people around Glasgow, as I have posted before, used to base at Connel. Perhaps they may now come to Strathaven. But I am unhappy, because such a glorious resource is being wasted and people with the courage to set up small businesses and take risk are now being faced with un-necessary costs that may make their business plan unviable.
Madness.
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Sywell sell mogas Sywell Aerodrome - Charges and they hosted Aero Expo, where the CAA was an exhibitor.
Would the CAA allow and participate in an event at an airfield that was deemed to ignore it's "duty of care for air safety"?
What a lot of bull.
Would the CAA allow and participate in an event at an airfield that was deemed to ignore it's "duty of care for air safety"?
What a lot of bull.
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Could this missive from the council have something to do with the fact that from next month unleaded Avgas will be available in the UK and will of course be produced to a controlled standard so there will be no bar to TLC being able to supply it.
The only issue is that initially, I believe, Total will be the only manufacturer.
Rotax engines can treat it the same as mogas. Certain high compression aero engines will not be able to use it.
The only issue is that initially, I believe, Total will be the only manufacturer.
Rotax engines can treat it the same as mogas. Certain high compression aero engines will not be able to use it.
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The fact of the matter is that fuel from a garage forecourt has no quality assurance
This is a result of lobbying by a self interested party. Pure and simple.
It is a RISK TO SAFETY for those who operate engines designed to run on Mogas, and who have done so safely for years.
It IS NOT an airport operators duty to dictate what people put in their tanks. Period.
These are facts.
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Good Morning it is obvious you know very little or nothing about Rotax 2 strokes and leaded petrol! It is almost a certainty you will have an engine failure if you use leaded petrol in a 2 stroke due to lead fouling on the spark plugs! Avgas contains several times the amount of lead that even the old 5star had! So based on this fact it maybe fair to suggest that to force 2 stroke Rotax owners to use Avgas would infact be creating a dangerous situation!! Dare I say cause accidents or even fatalities! GO figure!!