Blackpool 3/2/07

[bjornhall]

And this comes from someone learning to fly

Two people lost their lives because of poor decisions made on that day. I happen to think that some people (and I include myself in that) will take something away from the sad circumstances that led to that accident

Excellent comment, since it shows that you have missed my point entirely! So thanks for pointing out that I should have expressed myself more clearly.

There is something tremendously important to take with us from this accident, but it is not something we didn't already know. It is a reaffirmation of what we already knew. It is the same thing we can "learn", in a way, from a whole lot of other accidents, similar to this one in that almost unfathomably poor decisions were made, for one reason or another.

But it is not the particular reasons for why those decisions were made in each particular case, that are worth focusing our attention on and learning from. Rather, it is the fact that basic rules were not followed, and that the most fundamental aspects of the PPL training was overlooked. When one looks at the circumstances of serious GA accidents, one finds deliberate violations in a huge number of them (as opposed to professional flying, where errors and mistakes are far more common and violations feature more rarely in the causal factors).

What one should take away from this tragedy, IMHO, is the following:
a) Keep it simple, fly as we are taught, and follow the rules.
b) Whenever something appears complicated, see a).

But we knew that already. And that is what I meant with there being nothing to learn from this accident: There is nothing new to learn, but perhaps a very useful reminder of what it would prevent a huge part of fatal GA accidents. It is something we all learned, or are learning, during our PPL training. So let's not unlearn it.

[bjornhall]

I hope to hell you never make a bad decision in your future flying days. I think you should take time out with your holier than thou attitude. You have a lot to learn.

Are you just trying to be insulting, or do you have anything you wish to say?

[Aztec Driver]

GBBBK

Bollocks, Bollocks and Bollocks !!!
You all summise and no nothing !!!
The father of the deceased requested an invoice to be raised, so Bollocks, Bollocks , and more Bollocks
This is a witch Hunt by the father of the deceased to gain some cultrubility to thoes that now have to take the flack for the bad airmanship deployed by the people who are not here to defend themselves
Bollocks, Bollocks and by the way more Bollocks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Knight Paladin]

Bjorn - I couldn't disagree more about supervision of low hour PPLs. Some flying clubs use a system of "authorisers", notably military flying clubs, as it is clearly based on the military authorisation system. Under this system, someone other than the PIC must authorise each flight, after first satisfying themselves that the flight in question is within the capabilities of the pilot in question and that sufficient planning and preparation has occurred, and that nothing has been overlooked. After more experience has been gained, PPL holders will become "self-authorising", sometimes only in stages - being self authorising for foreign landaways could be a further qualification, for example. Yes, I appreciate that it may seem like extra red tape, and that someone can quite happily buy their own aircraft or rent from a club without such restrictions, but I would strongly suggest that clubs with such a system have a better safety record than those without. Besides the obvious benefits of supervision, it also provides a means of mentoring and developing the abilities of newly qualified PPLs - 45 hours really really isn't very much experience!

[vanHorck]

Aztec driver

i read with interest your emotions. I guess you were involved in some way either at the FBO or as a relative/friend of someone at the FBO

thanks for explaining the issue regarding the invoice

Perhaps you d like to comment a bit more on the position of the CFI who has been accused here of many things, all of which had nothing to do directly with the flight itself

There are many emotions on this thread, good or bad, but it can help all of us if the CFI s environments view was expressed as well

I just hope people will remain civilised. Not much chance of it 100% but there are level headed balanced people here too

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Bang out of order - if the **** fits wear it....

Bollocks, Bollocks and Bollocks !!!
You all summise and no nothing !!!
The father of the deceased requested an invoice to be raised, so Bollocks, Bollocks , and more Bollocks
This is a witch Hunt by the father of the deceased to gain some cultrubility to thoes that now have to take the flack for the bad airmanship deployed by the people who are not here to defend themselves
Bollocks, Bollocks and by the way more Bollocks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok Father requested invoice for one of two reasons:

1. He's a stand up chap - thought it was the right thing to do
2. It is for another legal reason and he has been reccomended to do so.

Notwithstanding that.............

Case 1, he should have been told "dont be so f*ckin daft after your tragic loss we dont want a penny"

Case 2 he should have been sent an invoice with a credit note attached so taht the appropiate pieces of paper could have been waved around at each other.

To invoice this guy is shocking but somehow i'm not shocked - why?


There has been a lot of discussion about P1 PIC who was responsible and other aspects, the simple fact is that if this lad had gone to any other school on the field he would probably be doing an IR right now

Be a bit more respectful you knob - he's lost his son

[Islander2]

Aztec Driver

You seem to have joined the small number here who believe that Andrew Walker and/or the accompanying pilot were exclusively culpable for this tragic accident.

Just for clarification, if you'd been an experienced pilot who was to be carried in that aeroplane to collect a twin from Exeter, what if any words of advice would you have given to a pilot proposing to take off, overweight, into a 200ft-base overcast when the TAF for their return was no better, when the pilot had 106 hours total time gained over 12 years and of which only 3.8 were in the previous 13 months, when the pilot's experience on instruments had totalled 1.3 hours, and when the aeroplane had no functioning radio navigation equipment?

[boy entrant]

Well no prizes for guessing who “Aztec Driver” could be on an ill fated trip to pick up an Aztec I feel I owe him a thank you for giving us all an insight into the loud mouthed, know it all, bullying character that Andy was dealing with, and of course his ability to spell Bollocks

[bookworm]

You can not depart on a VFR flight from A to B unless the actual and forecast weather indicate that the flight can be made VFR.

You can not depart on a VFR flight from A to B when the actual and forecast weather at B is less than VMC even if you have a VMC alternate C. What you are doing in that case is departing VFR from A to C with the posibility of changing the destination later to B if the weather improves.

You're making it up as you go along, once again DFC. This is in your imagination, not in the legislation. In the same way that an IFR flight may depart with its destination below minima provided it has a suitable alternate, so too may a VFR flight. Article 49 does not even distinguish between a "VFR flight" and an "IFR flight". Its provisions refer to flight rules only in the context of anticipating IFR at the destination.

Too many pilots depart on what they call VFR flights knowing full well that at some stage they will probably have to fly IFR.

And your point is well made, and relevant here. You don't need to invent regulation to support it.

[S-Works]

Well no prizes for guessing who “Aztec Driver” could be on an ill fated trip to pick up an Aztec I feel I owe him a thank you for giving us all an insight into the loud mouthed, know it all, bullying character that Andy was dealing with, and of course his ability to spell Bollocks

Don't know him or any of the characters and don't care about the politics.

But it does strike me that you have just lowered yourself to the very level you were criticizing. Kettle and pot?

[DFC]

Bookworm,

It is so simple I can not understand why PPLs fail to understand the principle.

You can not expect to safely fly from A to B unless the weather at A, at B and on the proposed route is good enough to permit VFR flight. That is it. Simple.

Please read ICAO Annex 6, Part 2, Chapter 4, 4.6.1 This deals with VFR flights and is the UK standard in this regard.

VFR flights are not required to have alternates and are not required to have fuel to divert at the destination.

They are required to have a final reserve which in this case would have been 45 minutes.

Regards,

DFC

PS You are also wrong about the IFR flight - An IFR flight can only depart for a destination which is below minima when it has two suitable alternates above alternate minima

[S-Works]

And your point is well made, and relevant here. You don't need to invent regulation to support it.

It's his way.......

[G-ROAR]

Well said Islander 2.

I fly from Blackpool and have done so for the past 30 years. There is no way I would have undertaken that flight since the forecast for the return trip showed no improvement. The aerodrome operating minima for runway 28 is 200ft QFE and I use 250ft.
For runway 10 the minima is 380ft QFE for a NDB/DME approach and for an aircraft with no navaids an SRA approach is a 870ft.

However to attempt this approach I would insist on 3 things:-
1) Suitably equipped aircraft with all navaids required for a precision approach working.
2) IR rated pilot.
3) Pilot is current, having flown frequently in last few weeks in IFR conditions and is comfortable flying an approach down to minima.


If I cannot satisfy myself that all of the above are in place I do not go. Many a time I have been out of practice, having not flown for a few weeks, and I have binned a trip yet on paper I have the IR, have the right equipment on the aircraft but not current enough to satisfy myself that I am 100%.

Would I have let my son, who is a PPL, or anyone under my care attempt a flight like that? Not in a million years. What a tragic accident which shows how a young man can be shoved in a direction he didn't want to go.

[S-Works]

What a tragic accident which shows how a young man can be shoved in a direction he didn't want to go.

Where is the evidence that he was shoved and where is the evidence that he did not want to go?

Once again there is a suggestion of forceful coercion here rather than what seems to be a naive young man being encouraged to operate outside of his ability. It is a fine line but nonetheless a line.

[Supersport]

Once again there is a suggestion of forceful coercion here rather than what seems to be a naive young man being encouraged to operate outside of his ability. It is a fine line but nonetheless a line.

I think the word shoved is representative of the encouragement / persuasion that Andrew Walker recieved from the CFI.

We are all well aware that at the end of the day, that encouraged or not, Andrew could have said no. I am well aware that the 'blame' for the accident cannot be shifted to the CFI, ultimately the 2 occupants of the aircraft are to blame with the extensive chain of poor decision making / planning.

Tell me this though Bose-X, put yourself in the CFI's position, had you been there on that day, would you have actively encouraged a plain PPL holder to take on a flight of this nature, knowing full well that he was out of currency? More to the point, if you had been the CFI would you have even asked in the first place? I know what my answer would be.

The fact that he even asked, knowing full well the currency / experience level, smacks of desperation. The fact that he had to ask twice makes it even clearer.

[bookworm]

Please read ICAO Annex 6, Part 2, Chapter 4, 4.6.1 This deals with VFR flights and is the UK standard in this regard.

Annex 6 part 2 does not regulate private flights within the UK. The flight that is relevant to this thread was Blackpool to Exeter, to Blackpool. It was regulated by the ANO.

PS You are also wrong about the IFR flight - An IFR flight can only depart for a destination which is below minima when it has two suitable alternates above alternate minima

And again you quote an inappropriate regulation. That's a JAR-OPS1 requirement (1.295). It doesn't apply to private flights in the UK.

Art 49 (6B) A flight shall not be continued towards the aerodrome of intended landing unless the latest available information indicates that conditions at that aerodrome, or at least one alternate aerodrome, will, at the estimated time of arrival, be at or above the specified aerodrome operating minima. (My bold).

[S-Works]

supersport, read the whole thread. At no time have I condoned the immoral behavior exhibited by all parties. What I am trying to do is make the point that I see no FORCE or COERCION in this, just bad advice and bad decision making.

[Supersport]

It taking 2 attempts (phone calls) to persuade Andrew Walker to go ahead with the flight, seems like coercion to me, forceful maybe not but I would take that as coercion.

Persuade / Coerce - another fine line.

[S-Works]

Persuade / Coerce - another fine line.

Maybe in your mind, take a look at the dictionary and legal definition.

persuade |pərˈswād|
verb [ trans. ]
cause (someone) to do something through reasoning or argument : it wasn't easy, but I persuaded him to do the right thing.
• [ trans. ] cause (someone) to believe something, esp. after a sustained effort; convince : they must often be persuaded of the potential severity of their drinking problems | [ trans. ] he did everything he could to persuade the police that he was the robber.
• (of a situation or event) provide a sound reason for (someone) to do something : the cost of the manor's restoration persuaded them to take in guests.

coerce |kōˈərs|
verb [ trans. ]
persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats : they were coerced into silence. See note at compel .
• obtain (something) by such means : their confessions were allegedly coerced by torture.

Now prove coercion and I will consider a change of stance.

[172driver]

You are debating the wrong flight here. The first flight, coerced, illegal or otherwise, landed uneventfully at the intended destination.

What beggars belief is that having already completed a flight that was marginal (to put it very, very charitably), none of the two pilots bothered to check the wx back in Blackpool or to uplift fuel. No matter who the PIC was (and the AAIB report is quite clear here, contrary to what some posters claim), this is madness of the highest order.

One wonders how these two guys got their licenses in the first place.