Microlight Rating on JAA-PPL(A)
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Microlight Rating on JAA-PPL(A)
Hi Guys,
Is it possible to get a Microlight rating on a CAA issued JAA-PPL(A)? The reason I ask is that I am currently flying in Ireland on my CAA license and want to start flying microlights soon. I emailed the IAA asking does my CAA PPL allow me to fly a microlight (3-axis) in irish airspace, here is part of the reply i got:
"I know that the UK CAA has permitted the holder of a valid SEP class rating to fly Microlights (subject to Differences training) within UK airspace, primarily because the law didn’t allow the endorsement of ratings applicable to the NPPL (e.g. Microlight, SLMG) to be added to National/JAR PPL(A) licences. The law in this respect has changed recently to permit these ratings to be added to PPL(A) licences, so I suggest that in the first instance you contact the UK CAA to find out how you can get a Microlight rating added to your licence."
After reading this I thought 'Great'. Do a course, get a microlight rating on my PPL(A) sorted!
However I cant find any reference to the above "rule changes" that the IAA are on about in LASORS 2008 or anywhere else for that matter!
Does the IAA man have his facts wrong or is it possible?
Regards,
Ian
Is it possible to get a Microlight rating on a CAA issued JAA-PPL(A)? The reason I ask is that I am currently flying in Ireland on my CAA license and want to start flying microlights soon. I emailed the IAA asking does my CAA PPL allow me to fly a microlight (3-axis) in irish airspace, here is part of the reply i got:
"I know that the UK CAA has permitted the holder of a valid SEP class rating to fly Microlights (subject to Differences training) within UK airspace, primarily because the law didn’t allow the endorsement of ratings applicable to the NPPL (e.g. Microlight, SLMG) to be added to National/JAR PPL(A) licences. The law in this respect has changed recently to permit these ratings to be added to PPL(A) licences, so I suggest that in the first instance you contact the UK CAA to find out how you can get a Microlight rating added to your licence."
After reading this I thought 'Great'. Do a course, get a microlight rating on my PPL(A) sorted!
However I cant find any reference to the above "rule changes" that the IAA are on about in LASORS 2008 or anywhere else for that matter!
Does the IAA man have his facts wrong or is it possible?
Regards,
Ian
Last edited by bean_ian; 11th Mar 2008 at 23:04.
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Hi,
IAA is wrong.
UK PPL (A) and JAR (SEP) are ICAO compliant licences.
ICAO has no definition of a microlight, instead using a maximum weight of 5700kgs.
So microlight weight aircraft can be flown on ICAO compliant licences without differences training. (the international guys have not come up with an international definition to be able to exclude them!)
Some aircraft - like Tipsy Nippers - weight less than the UK microlight maximum of 450kgs but don't meet the UK wing-loading or stall speed requirements so are still light aircraft, for instance.
The UK NPPL is not an ICAO compliant licence, so the UK CAA can make their own rules.
Thus with an SSEA (the NPPL equivalent of an SEP, -ish!) you cannot fly a microlight. With a microlight NPPL you can only fly the type you have trained on unless you have differences training (ie weighshift or three-axis).
Hope that helps,
XA
ps. However, microlights don't count for revalidation hours for JAR or PPL (A) licences. Work that one out!
IAA is wrong.
UK PPL (A) and JAR (SEP) are ICAO compliant licences.
ICAO has no definition of a microlight, instead using a maximum weight of 5700kgs.
So microlight weight aircraft can be flown on ICAO compliant licences without differences training. (the international guys have not come up with an international definition to be able to exclude them!)
Some aircraft - like Tipsy Nippers - weight less than the UK microlight maximum of 450kgs but don't meet the UK wing-loading or stall speed requirements so are still light aircraft, for instance.
The UK NPPL is not an ICAO compliant licence, so the UK CAA can make their own rules.
Thus with an SSEA (the NPPL equivalent of an SEP, -ish!) you cannot fly a microlight. With a microlight NPPL you can only fly the type you have trained on unless you have differences training (ie weighshift or three-axis).
Hope that helps,
XA
ps. However, microlights don't count for revalidation hours for JAR or PPL (A) licences. Work that one out!
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Well, you can't really expect the IAA to be completely up to speed on the rules that the CAA applies, can you?
Within ICAO and JAA, there is no definition of a microlight, or an exclusion of the microlight class from the SEP(A) class. In principle, your JAR-FCL PPL SEP-A thus allows you to fly anything with fixed wings (not rotary) and a single piston engine (with a few specific exceptions where type ratings are required, such as the PA-38). That includes what is commonly known in the UK as a microlight. But in reality the "microlight" class only exists within the legal framework of the NPPL.
It is advisable to obtain differences training though, and have this differences training signed off by an instructor. That's the advice the CAA gives. At least, this is what it says about microlights in LASORS 2007 section C1.1:
Now the meaning of this paragraph is a bit unclear and it's been discussed before. This paragraph does NOT come directly from the ANO, suggesting that it is entirely legal (though stupid in case of a weightshift) to jump into a microlight without differences training. It also does not make clear, in this context, what an "appropriately qualified instructor" really is. And it is also not clear where the legal basis for not being able to count your hours towards revalidation is coming from.
Within ICAO and JAA, there is no definition of a microlight, or an exclusion of the microlight class from the SEP(A) class. In principle, your JAR-FCL PPL SEP-A thus allows you to fly anything with fixed wings (not rotary) and a single piston engine (with a few specific exceptions where type ratings are required, such as the PA-38). That includes what is commonly known in the UK as a microlight. But in reality the "microlight" class only exists within the legal framework of the NPPL.
It is advisable to obtain differences training though, and have this differences training signed off by an instructor. That's the advice the CAA gives. At least, this is what it says about microlights in LASORS 2007 section C1.1:
The holder of a UK JAR-FCL licence with SEP rating
may also subject to completion of differences training
with an appropriately qualified flying instructor, exercise
the privileges of their licence on microlight aeroplanes
and SLMG’s in UK airspace only, without the necessity
of obtaining a NPPL (the normal licence for such
aeroplanes). However, any experience gained in
microlight aeroplanes or SLMG’s cannot be counted
towards the flying experience necessary to revalidate
the SEP rating.
may also subject to completion of differences training
with an appropriately qualified flying instructor, exercise
the privileges of their licence on microlight aeroplanes
and SLMG’s in UK airspace only, without the necessity
of obtaining a NPPL (the normal licence for such
aeroplanes). However, any experience gained in
microlight aeroplanes or SLMG’s cannot be counted
towards the flying experience necessary to revalidate
the SEP rating.
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I would suggest that the IAA are indeed correct. The ANO (CAP393)was amended on 31st January 2008 mainly to amend the NPPL revalidation requirements. However among the various changes were the following
Taken from CAP393 as amended 31st January 2008.
"(4A) The CAA may, subject to such conditions as it thinks fit, include in any United Kingdom licence, JAR-FCL licence or National Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes), any rating specified in Section 2 of Part B of Schedule 8, upon being satisfied that the applicant is qualified by reason of his knowledge, experience, competence, skill and physical and mental fitness to act in the capacity to which the rating relates, and any such rating is deemed to form part of the licence."
"Section 2 – Aircraft and instructor ratings which may be included in United Kingdom Licences, JAR-FCL Licences and National Private Pilot's Licences (Aeroplanes)
1 The following ratings may be included in a United Kingdom pilot licence, a JAR-FCL pilot licence or a National Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) granted under Part 4, and, subject to the provisions of this Order and of the licence, the inclusion of a rating in a licence has the consequences respectively specified as follows-
Microlight class rating
(1) Subject to paragraph (2) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included, a microlight classrating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any microlight aeroplane."
As suggested in previous posts you may not actually require the Microlight rating to fly them on your licence. However, in light of the above amendments, it may be prudent to contact the CAA to clarify the situation.
You can find this document by doing a search for CAP393 on the CAA website. Lasors 2008 was printed prior to this amendment, hence the main document does not reflect these changes. There was a covering note, however, which did address some of the changes.
Taken from CAP393 as amended 31st January 2008.
"(4A) The CAA may, subject to such conditions as it thinks fit, include in any United Kingdom licence, JAR-FCL licence or National Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes), any rating specified in Section 2 of Part B of Schedule 8, upon being satisfied that the applicant is qualified by reason of his knowledge, experience, competence, skill and physical and mental fitness to act in the capacity to which the rating relates, and any such rating is deemed to form part of the licence."
"Section 2 – Aircraft and instructor ratings which may be included in United Kingdom Licences, JAR-FCL Licences and National Private Pilot's Licences (Aeroplanes)
1 The following ratings may be included in a United Kingdom pilot licence, a JAR-FCL pilot licence or a National Private Pilot's Licence (Aeroplanes) granted under Part 4, and, subject to the provisions of this Order and of the licence, the inclusion of a rating in a licence has the consequences respectively specified as follows-
Microlight class rating
(1) Subject to paragraph (2) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included, a microlight classrating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any microlight aeroplane."
As suggested in previous posts you may not actually require the Microlight rating to fly them on your licence. However, in light of the above amendments, it may be prudent to contact the CAA to clarify the situation.
You can find this document by doing a search for CAP393 on the CAA website. Lasors 2008 was printed prior to this amendment, hence the main document does not reflect these changes. There was a covering note, however, which did address some of the changes.
Last edited by jgs43; 12th Mar 2008 at 08:27. Reason: addition of further info
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Hi,
You are correct about the new ANO.
However, as I understand it, you still do not need a microlight rating on an ICAO licence.
But,
by allowing a microlight rating to be added to one, the CAA are acting kindly in that it makes it clear that if you have a UK PPL(A) or a JAR SEP and no longer wish to fly "light aircraft" (for the moment at least) but only want to fly microlights under the "privileges" of those licences, you can now apply for a microlight rating and thus be eligible for the UK microlight medical. (which, of course, won't be recognised by the IAA!!)
Previously, the use of a microlight medical by a PPL(A) holder who only wanted to fly microlights was by "dispensation" and I don't think it was possible with a JAR licence.
That's my take on the situation!
Basically, it is hard to get rid of grandfather rights as well.
The British Microlight Aircraft Association will be able to help out more than the CAA, I suspect, since they sit in on all the negotiations on changes to the ANO as regards microlights.
Very best,
XA
You are correct about the new ANO.
However, as I understand it, you still do not need a microlight rating on an ICAO licence.
But,
by allowing a microlight rating to be added to one, the CAA are acting kindly in that it makes it clear that if you have a UK PPL(A) or a JAR SEP and no longer wish to fly "light aircraft" (for the moment at least) but only want to fly microlights under the "privileges" of those licences, you can now apply for a microlight rating and thus be eligible for the UK microlight medical. (which, of course, won't be recognised by the IAA!!)
Previously, the use of a microlight medical by a PPL(A) holder who only wanted to fly microlights was by "dispensation" and I don't think it was possible with a JAR licence.
That's my take on the situation!
Basically, it is hard to get rid of grandfather rights as well.
The British Microlight Aircraft Association will be able to help out more than the CAA, I suspect, since they sit in on all the negotiations on changes to the ANO as regards microlights.
Very best,
XA
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Sorry. I meant the Malibu.
The question that still hasn't been answered is the following: You have a JAR-FCL PPL(A). You don't need a separate class rating for microlights as your SEP(A) covers it. You've also done differences training as recommended (though not legally required) by the CAA and got a proper signoff.
Now what's the legal basis that the CAA can stipulate that your PIC hours in a microlight cannot count towards the license revalidation by experience requirements?
The question that still hasn't been answered is the following: You have a JAR-FCL PPL(A). You don't need a separate class rating for microlights as your SEP(A) covers it. You've also done differences training as recommended (though not legally required) by the CAA and got a proper signoff.
Now what's the legal basis that the CAA can stipulate that your PIC hours in a microlight cannot count towards the license revalidation by experience requirements?
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Guys,
Is it possible to get a Microlight rating on a CAA issued JAA-PPL(A)? The reason I ask is that I am currently flying in Ireland on my CAA license and want to start flying microlights soon. I emailed the IAA asking does my CAA PPL allow me to fly a microlight (3-axis) in irish airspace
Is it possible to get a Microlight rating on a CAA issued JAA-PPL(A)? The reason I ask is that I am currently flying in Ireland on my CAA license and want to start flying microlights soon. I emailed the IAA asking does my CAA PPL allow me to fly a microlight (3-axis) in irish airspace
However, I expect that they think you are looking to fly a G registered Microlight on your UK issued licence.
Having a UK PPL with Microilght Rating or an NPPL with Microlight Rating or even a UK issued JAR-PPL with a UK National Microlight Rating attached does not permit the holder to fly EI resistered aircraft without first having to either obtain a validation or obtain an Irish Licence.
--------
Within ICAO and JAA, there is no definition of a microlight, or an exclusion of the microlight class from the SEP(A) class. In principle, your JAR-FCL PPL SEP-A thus allows you to fly anything with fixed wings (not rotary) and a single piston engine (with a few specific exceptions where type ratings are required, such as the PA-38). That includes what is commonly known in the UK as a microlight. But in reality the "microlight" class only exists within the legal framework of the NPPL.
[ ‘Microlight’ is an aeroplane having no more than two seats, Vso not exceeding 35 knots (65 KM/h) CAS,
and a maximum take-off mass of no more than:-
- 300 kg for a landplane, single seater; or
- 450 kg for a landplane, two-seater; or
- 330 kg for an amphibian or floatplane, single seater; or
- 495 kg for an amphibian or floatplane, two-seater, provided that a microlight capable of operating
as both a floatplane and a landplane falls below both MTOM limits, as appropriate.
Note: Foot-launched aircraft are excluded from this definition. ]
[Amdt. 6, 01.11.04]
JAR-FCL 1.005
(5) Whenever a reference is made to aeroplanes this does not include microlights as defined nationally, unless otherwise specified.
Thus when JAR-FCL refers to Single Engine Piston aeroplanes it is excluding Microlights with the exact definition left up to each State both from the requirements and at the same time the privileges including the logging of flight time.
The CAA is entitled to (and does) permit JAR-FCL licence holders with SEP ratings to fly Microlights and has specified the requirements. There is no obligation for any other State to follow the same procedure or to accept the CAA's National Position.
-------------
by allowing a microlight rating to be added to one, the CAA are acting kindly in that it makes it clear that if you have a UK PPL(A) or a JAR SEP and no longer wish to fly "light aircraft" (for the moment at least) but only want to fly microlights under the "privileges" of those licences, you can now apply for a microlight rating and thus be eligible for the UK microlight medical. (which, of course, won't be recognised by the IAA!!)
However, if the Microlight Rating is attached to a JAR-FCL licence then a JAR Medical is required. An NPPL medical declaration can only be used with an NPPL licence. Thus if one adds a National Microlight Rating to a valid JAR-PPL which also has an SEP Rating, if you want to start using the NPPL medical declarations you gave to get an NPPL issued on the basis of the JAR-PPL first.
The answer to the problem is to ask the IAA;
Can I fly an Irish Microlight with an Irish JAR-FCL licence and Valid SEP Rating?
If they say yes then transfer the State of your JAR-FCL licence to Ireland.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
Thanks for the JAR FCL stuff. Although it is still a grey area because of the local (ie National!) definitions, such as old single seaters allowed in the UK up to 390kgs and the Germans allowing extra weight for ballistic parachutes.
Regards medicals:
You wrote:
An NPPL medical declaration can only be used with an NPPL licence.
Not quite true, the NPPL medical - because the old "pink chit" was abolished - is how I keep my UK PPL (microlights) valid.
Thus if one adds a National Microlight Rating to a valid JAR-PPL which also has an SEP Rating, if you want to start using the NPPL medical declarations you gave to get an NPPL issued on the basis of the JAR-PPL first.
Maybe true for a JAR licence, but not true for a UK PPL(A) who only flies microlights. One panel examiner for microlights flies on a UK PPL (A) with a NPPL medical, but also flies light aircraft on a NPPL (SSEA) to save on the PPL medical!
This is done by a "dispensation" from the CAA that is in the files at BMAA HQ, so not in any of the ANO, JAR or CAA docs!
Back to your "can I fly" with JAR, my three-axis microlight instructor has a JAR SEP, a Canadian light aircraft licence and a Microlight Instructor rating. But no microlight rating! (he does a test every two years to keep his light aircraft licence valid and has a Class 2 medical).
In this not all really too complex?
Very best,
XA
Thanks for the JAR FCL stuff. Although it is still a grey area because of the local (ie National!) definitions, such as old single seaters allowed in the UK up to 390kgs and the Germans allowing extra weight for ballistic parachutes.
Regards medicals:
You wrote:
An NPPL medical declaration can only be used with an NPPL licence.
Not quite true, the NPPL medical - because the old "pink chit" was abolished - is how I keep my UK PPL (microlights) valid.
Thus if one adds a National Microlight Rating to a valid JAR-PPL which also has an SEP Rating, if you want to start using the NPPL medical declarations you gave to get an NPPL issued on the basis of the JAR-PPL first.
Maybe true for a JAR licence, but not true for a UK PPL(A) who only flies microlights. One panel examiner for microlights flies on a UK PPL (A) with a NPPL medical, but also flies light aircraft on a NPPL (SSEA) to save on the PPL medical!
This is done by a "dispensation" from the CAA that is in the files at BMAA HQ, so not in any of the ANO, JAR or CAA docs!
Back to your "can I fly" with JAR, my three-axis microlight instructor has a JAR SEP, a Canadian light aircraft licence and a Microlight Instructor rating. But no microlight rating! (he does a test every two years to keep his light aircraft licence valid and has a Class 2 medical).
In this not all really too complex?
Very best,
XA
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Maybe true for a JAR licence, but not true for a UK PPL(A) who only flies microlights. One panel examiner for microlights flies on a UK PPL (A) with a NPPL medical, but also flies light aircraft on a NPPL (SSEA) to save on the PPL medical!
Should have said "National Licenses" rather than NPPL when it comes to Microlights.
Regards,
DFC
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Cheers lads, I've email the CAA asking for clarification quoting the recent amendments to the ANO. If this is possible (and from reading the ANO I assume it is) the IAA stated that they would accept this rating. I quote:
"It is possible to fly Microlight Aeroplanes in Ireland under the privileges of a UK PPL(A) (or any other ICAO Annex 1 compliant aeroplane licence) provided the licence has a valid microlight rating specifically endorsed upon it.".
Cheers,
Ian
"It is possible to fly Microlight Aeroplanes in Ireland under the privileges of a UK PPL(A) (or any other ICAO Annex 1 compliant aeroplane licence) provided the licence has a valid microlight rating specifically endorsed upon it.".
Cheers,
Ian
Its not up to the CAA to say what you can do in Ireland on a UK issued licence; that's up to the Irish CAA.
Licences are not ICAO compliant, its the State that issues it that complies with ICAO!
Yes you can have the Microlight rating included in your licence but wait for it; the CAA may not have any software to do this as nobody told licensing about the January Law Change!
But that does not mean you can't fly one on a SEP class rating! A microlight fits within the SEP definition of an aeroplane with a single piston engine, whatever else you call it doesn't matter, it simply means you can't count the hours on such a device towards aeroplane requirements.
Licences are not ICAO compliant, its the State that issues it that complies with ICAO!
Yes you can have the Microlight rating included in your licence but wait for it; the CAA may not have any software to do this as nobody told licensing about the January Law Change!
(5) Whenever a reference is made to aeroplanes this does not include microlights as defined nationally, unless otherwise specified.
Last edited by Whopity; 13th Mar 2008 at 17:12.
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Cheers lads, I've email the CAA asking for clarification quoting the recent amendments to the ANO. If this is possible (and from reading the ANO I assume it is) the IAA stated that they would accept this rating. I quote:
"It is possible to fly Microlight Aeroplanes in Ireland under the privileges of a UK PPL(A) (or any other ICAO Annex 1 compliant aeroplane licence) provided the licence has a valid microlight rating specifically endorsed upon it.".
Cheers,
Ian
"It is possible to fly Microlight Aeroplanes in Ireland under the privileges of a UK PPL(A) (or any other ICAO Annex 1 compliant aeroplane licence) provided the licence has a valid microlight rating specifically endorsed upon it.".
Cheers,
Ian
This accident report will be of interest to you;
http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/7243-0.pdf
Here is the specific relevant paragraph;
1.7.3 UK CAA Personal Licensing Department
In a response to the Draft Report, the UK CAA Personal Licensing Department stated on the 18 November 2005 that, “The pilots were flying in an Irish registered aircraft in Ireland. Their UK licences were not valid, so they were flying unlicenced”.
Even if you get your UK Microlight qualification validated in Ireland this is for a maximum of 1 year. Since you are operating in Ireland the easiest thing will most probably be for you to transfer the State of Licence isue for your JAR Licence to Ireland and then add an Irish National Microlight Rating to that. Assuming of course that you want to fly EI registered microlights.
----------
Whopity,
The JAR-FCL specifically says that when the wortd aeroplane is used it excludes microlights. If you look at the privileges of the SEP rating it is to fly aeroplanes and if you put that privilege together with the exclusion of microlights you see that under JAR-FCL an SEP rating does not automatically give Microlight flying privileges.
The CAA has chosen to permit valid SEP rating holders to fly microlights subject to certain conditions.
The IAA requires a Microlight rating even if a valid SEP is held.
Microlight ratings being purely national in nature are of course only valid in the territory of the country issuing the rating or whatever other means by which they permit pilots to fly Microlights.
Regards,
DFC
The CAA has chosen to permit valid SEP rating holders to fly microlights subject to certain conditions.
The only reason for the statement in JAR-FCL 1.005 is because some States still do not regulate microlights and the JAA did not consider it acceptable to claim hours on devices that were unregulated.
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but wait for it; the CAA may not have any software to do this as nobody told licensing about the January Law Change!
TOO
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I'd like any alteration to the conditions pertaining to my license to be made know clearly and understandably to ME pro actively - I don't have time to review the ANO every time I fly!
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No, the CAA considered that there is nothing in JAR-FCL to prohibit a pilot with a SEP rating from flying a SEP aeroplane below 450 Kgs no matter what else you decide to call it.
What the CAA does within the UK is up to the CAA.
Regards,
DFC
The privileges of the licence are as defined in Schedule 8. JAR-FCL is not law and only has legal status where it has been specifically enacted by the ANO.
The privilege to fly a Microlight on the basis of a UK or UK issued JAA pilots licence holding a SEP class rating is valid anywhere in the World, in a UK registered aircraft as it is an ICAO licence. Another State may of course refuse to accept a permitted aircraft but they cannot refuse the licence if they accept the aircraft.
The privilege to fly a Microlight on the basis of a UK or UK issued JAA pilots licence holding a SEP class rating is valid anywhere in the World, in a UK registered aircraft as it is an ICAO licence. Another State may of course refuse to accept a permitted aircraft but they cannot refuse the licence if they accept the aircraft.
