IMC rating in theUK?

[Zorst]

Also if your training, briefing, CRM etc are so much better than a "cheap and nasty rating", how come you need EGPWS?

dim-witted, thick-skulled, UK PPL community: always justifying their petty little ways with twisted interpretations of the real world

and some characters to make the daft software happy.

[S-Works]

I am curious Zorst (I have no axe to grind as I find your posts humorous) but have you ever held a PPL or did you jump direct to ATPL?

[Zorst]

Nope, PPL, CPL, ATPL, with various ratings and other licences on the way, thank you for asking.

[frog_ATC]

Maybe Zorst is a bit rude... in fact very rude, that's true :-)
He could maybe have expressed himself in another way.

But I must admit that I do not appreciate that UK IMC at all, and I hope they will stop it as soon as possible.


I know most of you will scream!!!! when they will read those lines, but that's my feeling.


Let's introduce myself first : my first job is Air Traffic Controller, radar and non-radar approach qualifications, ATC instructor and examiner in France.

I'm also a pilot, and an instructor (JAR instructor and examiner, and FAA instrument instructor).

As an ATC, I very often have these G-Reg IMC ratings in my controlled area, 100% IMC, VFR status. I've been ATC on 2 different airports, and this was always the same problem : these damned G-Reg IMC ratings, playing the "IR pilot", without qualification, but also, without the status, without the flight plan, and... without the skills.

Yes, outside UK.
Yes, very often.

One of these foggy and cloudy days, a G-reg VFR crossing through my (controlled!) TMA, and I wondered how this was possible with that awful weather, but I already knew deep inside.
So after a while I asked :

- G-XXXX, say conditions ?
- G-XXXX, we are IMC.
- G-XXXX, confirm you are VFR ?
- G-XXXX affirm.
- G-XXXX confirm you are VFR and IMC ??
- G-XXXX affirm.

... Pilots behaving that way have absolutely no respect, either for the ATC, either for the country they are flying through and its regulation. What a great image of UK !

Sometimes they tell you they are IMC, sometimes they don't.
Not only are they outlaw, but this is something completely impossible to handle in a normal traffic for the ATC.

When you tell them they should maintain VMC, they answer "I'm IMC rated".
I do not care your IMC rating, dummy, you are in France and I want you to maintain VMC !!

My second activity, quite time consuming I must say, is flight instructor, and more especially, FAA Instrument instructor.

I sometimes have some IMC rated asking me "I hold an IMC rating, I'm nearly ready for the FAA IR checkride". And they want to fly the minimum as minimum as minimum.

I'm sure there are some talented IMC rated pilots, but I must say that some of those I evaluated had a very poor level of basic IMC flying.

And it took time to train some of them because they thought they "already knew" ! They may have some very bad habits we have to erase to make them safe.
Their flying method is often not structured enough and they try to "reinvent" everything, or consider many things as "details" which are not important... but every detail is important when you are in the soup.

Flying IMC is not only entering clouds and shaking controls, it is more than that, it is a pilot attitude, decision making, understanding of what's happening with the ATC, the traffic, the airplane, the weather.


And as a pilot, I had some unhappy experiences when flying in the same sky...

So did my husband, that "met" one of these "half-VFR half-IFR" two months ago crossing a beacon completely illegaly, while he was same position same altitude, shooting an IFR approach...

When you have seen, in a fraction of second, another airplane passing by below your wheels in complete IMC soup, so nearby that you could see the head of the pilot (this was a cirrus, with one onboard), I can tell you that you really nearly collided and there would have been nothing you could do against that.
Only by chance, you did not "kiss" over that beacon.

They were three onboard, and I remember that 15 minutes after landing the students were still shaking. (of course => AIRPROX)


So, in the name of all ATC outside UK, and in the name of myself as a pilot, I hope they will stop this damned IMC rating, that makes some pilots think they are what they are not.


You cannot be "half trained". Even with the best weather briefing in the world, you can be trapped in clouds more deeply than expected, trapped in weather you did not expected that way. Then you will need a full experience, a full qualification, to sort this out.


Then we are back to the problem: the European Instrument Rating was designed only for airline pilots.
It is too complicated, too expensive, the ground school is completely useless for a private pilot.

THAT IS TRUE.

And that's the main problem.

We need a european Instrument rating in the same spirit as the FAA one. That would be great...

What is the difference between a JAA and a FAA IR, once you are rated ?
None !
You'll fly in the same sky, same conditions, same everything, and you will need the same skills.
Only the way to get it which is different... You learn only what you need.

Despite I had some JAA IR flight experience, I stopped waiting for that marvelous "improved JAA IR" and switched to the FAA one, and I really appreciate now the FAA system with those safety seminars, the fact that they insist on decision making and human factors...
But I still hope they will create a similar IR in Europe, that would be great for the GA safety.

Fly safe,

The ATC frog

PS : sorry, English is not my native langage

[Contacttower]

... Pilots behaving that way have absolutely no respect, either for the ATC, either for the country they are flying through and its regulation. What a great image of UK !

I'm sorry ATC frog, that must drive you absolutely mad!

I promise though the pilots that do this are very much in the minority and that actually taking away the IMC rating would do nothing to stop people who knowingly break the rules anyway.

The IMC rating has a very good safety record, in fact according to AOPA there has never been an accident involving a current IMC rating holder exercising his privileges legally. Most people on this forum would agree that it has saved lives and is a good thing.

[S-Works]

At the risk of being controversial as usual..

I am not sure you are quite right there about the minority. You only have to be at LFAT on murky day to see one or two rules being bent.

[frog_ATC]

Thanks Contacttower,

First for your kind message, and secondly for flying those pretty taildraggers !

You are right, human behavior is always the key problem.

But I keep thinking that a more accessible IFR (not a "simplified" one, but a more pragmatic one) would be such a better solution than this terrible "IMC thing".

Croa-Croa from the tower

[Fuji Abound]

Frog ATC

Welcome to PPRuNe - how nice to have your first post on here.

I am worried about your English as I suspect some of the content may have been lost in translation.

I am fluent in French - French aunt, brought up with her, so I telll you what, please could you post your last in French as well and I can let everyone else know if anything was lost in the translation.

Thank you.

[frog_ATC]

Thanks Fuji that's very nice !

As I wrote it directly in English, I have no French version of it !
But that's true that I sometimes made some cut because I could not find a specific word !

Mais ce n'est pas très grave, ça me fait du bien aussi d'écrire en anglais de temps en temps, ça fait travailler un peu !

Fly safe,

Towered Frog

[S-Works]

With all due respect, french is not my first language in fact I speak very little but her posting was very clear to me and I can understand exactly the point she was getting across.

It is a scenario that I have heard many times crossing France.

As contact tower states a bad example but not quite the minority he thinks. But I think that anyone who is prepared to behave like that is going to do it regardless of whether we have the IMC or not.

[Contacttower]

But I keep thinking that a more accessible IFR (not a "simplified" one, but a more pragmatic one) would be such a better solution than this terrible "IMC thing".

Indeed, the IMC rating was never meant to be a 'solution' in the sense of a replacement for doing an Instrument rating...and if a 'good' IR was thought up for Europe wide then that would be better.

First for your kind message, and secondly for flying those pretty taildraggers !

Well thank you, I do enjoy the Super Cub .

[Fuji Abound]

With all due respect, french is not my first language in fact I speak very little but her posting was very clear to me and I can understand exactly the point she was getting across.

Take it from me French is a very subtle language and I am sure our friend will not mind repeating her post in her native tongue.

Makes me chuckle though - there I was accepting vectors into Southampton recently when this chap pipes up, wanting vectors on to the localiser.

He gets told slow traffic ahead, I will position you behind.

That wasn’t good enough, but despite pushing he was vectored further out.

Then he wanted another vector for weather.

At this pointed the frustrated controller asked if he was instrument rated.

I have an IR he said.

In that case you are probably aware you are about to leave CAS, what are your intentions, came the sarcastic reply.

The three of us chuckled.

A very long pause.

Vectors were renegotiated.

Then another weather avoidance was requested.

As we landed he was positioned back on the localiser.

A by now exasperated controller mentioned that you appear to have gone through the localiser, what are your intentions.

We were rolling around by now.

The moral of the story - I am not sure there is one really.

The following week en route to Jersey, and I am not going to name the company, spXXXXXXX , FL45, ORTAC etc. Sir you are not in the airway, what are your intentions. Requesting 20 degrees right. Sir, that will take you further outside the airway, what are your intentions then!!

Chuckles all round.

.. .. .. and the moral, ask the French.

There maybe a difference between these various tales. I can give you the date and time from my log, you might even pull the tapes .. .. ..

[Zorst]

if a 'good' IR was thought up for Europe wide then that would be better

Errr, what's wrong with the one that's there already? Yes, of course, I forgot, you have to be up to scratch. Oh well...

And to think, I've been called 'very rude' by a frog! Praise indeed!!!!

[IO540]

FrogATC

When you tell them they should maintain VMC, they answer "I'm IMC rated".
I do not care your IMC rating, dummy, you are in France and I want you to maintain VMC !!

I think that what you are proving is only that it is possible to be stupid (really stupid) and get a PPL at the same time

Only a really stupid pilot will not know the IMC Rating is valid (for IFR) UK only.

And only an extremely stupid pilot will fly VFR in IMC and tell ATC they are in IMC (illegally).

A French pilot will do what VFR-qualified pilots do all over the world: fly VFR in VMC or IMC, and if ATC ask "confirm you are VMC" the reply is "Affirm".

I suspect you are seeing a small minority of really stupid people. Not just Brits but also French and Spanish pilots - a lot of people fly illegal VFR. That is the price we pay for having had a very hard IR for so many years. The smarter pilots fly illegal VFR enroute only - it gets a bit obvious if one ends up "VFR" overhead some French airport which is OVC005

Don't worry, there is no prospect of an exact copy of the UK IMCR coming to France. But a new EASA IR could well be a modular qualification, with some privileges being attained before one reaches the full ICAO IR. This is what Australia has had for some time and it works well. The principle is sound.

[Fuji Abound]

Zorst

Well that is quite amusing in view of my earlier post, which I posted before yours.

Tell you what you should do, spend a bit of time listening to AT.

It is quite fun listening to some of the aircraft arriving into Luton.

Hmmm there was me thinking you had to be up to scratch as well, ah well that is another myth blown.

We are running out of myths this week, I must have a word with the myth creators to see if we can rustle up a few more - now there is a thought .

[frog_ATC]

Here is a very big mistake.

Being a VFR in IMC is one thing.
You may be trapped by weather, or whatever.
You are non legal, that's a point.

But being a VFR in IMC, and telling the ATC that you are VMC, that is the most stupid thing I've ever seen (quite often, unfortunately).

Acting that way if being a killer, there is no other word for that. Those liars in VFR are the most dangerous thing I could meet when flying IFR, or when working at the tower.

I'm always anxious about them, especially since I met some of some "more nearby than needed". And the problem becomes bigger now that they have great GPS, TCAS and beautiful Cirrus with autopilot : those VFRs really think they are Kings in the Sky, like this stupid guy that nearly killed my husband in his SR22.


I prefer the pilot that tells me he's IMC. On the example given below, the point that makes me angry is that the guy answered very calmly, like if it was something absolutely natural "Yes I'm VFR and IMC, by the way, do you want a cup of tea ?".


But some of them lie, yes, most of the time.
With a 500ft ceiling, top of clouds 6000 ft, my airliners and IFR all in the soup at all levels, this stupid VFR at 3000 feet will tell me "oh yes, we are VMC".
One of them told me one day "Oh no, not IMC, just in and out of clouds".
!!!


If one day you're VFR and IMC when you did not expect to, and moreover, in controlled airspace, but even in uncontrolled airspace, the first thing you should do is TELL THE ATC.

This is the only way we can handle the situation, by knowing what's happening.


But this should be an exception, a very rare situation when you are trapped by weather, not happen to you every two days when you fly VFR !

Because if you are not able to check weather before your flight without being trapped in clouds each time they build, and without being able to evaluate in flight that things are going the wrong way when it becomes obvious, then stop flying... there are other funny activities for you !

The angry Frog


PS : You think that VFR pilots all over the World fly IMC without telling anybody. Not me. I've been flying 12 years before getting my instrument rating, and during these 12 years with more than 100 h/year average,, summer and winter, I never entered IMC. Maybe one day I'll be trapped, but I'll my best not to be trapped, and I trained all my students to do so... and I also told them, if one day they are trapped, how to handle that, and how to query ATC immediately.

[Fuji Abound]

Frog

So lets see, the Brits are in and out the cloud, sort of IMC a bit of the time and the French are in the clouds all the time but VMC all of the time of course.

Vive la Difference!

Still we have had a bit of fun this evening, not sure whether it is deserving of quite such a serious subject but happy to keep chipping in with a few other stories if it amuses us.

[Contacttower]

Errr, what's wrong with the one that's there already? Yes, of course, I forgot, you have to be up to scratch. Oh well...

Goodness you know how to wind people up.

You Zorst (I take it at least) are surrounded by luxuries at work, your plane has multiple redundancies, it has all those safety features like GPW like you mentioned earlier, it can fly itself if you want it to and with super accurate GPS backed INS systems it makes IFR flight safe and easy. It is a spaceship in comparison to most GA hacks. You may have paid for your instrument rating initially but your airline takes care of most recurrent training and state of the art simulators ensure practice is complete and thorough. Because of all this and an excellent CAA the airlines in this country have a safety record to be proud of.

Now lets look at GA; most people in it are not doing it for a living, they are doing it in their spare time because they enjoy it. Although the CAA has regulatory oversight in the single pilot world safety has to rely on individuals observing good practice at all times. Coupled with the fact that most light aircraft in this country are over 20 years old and falling to bits with poor equipment levels it is not suprising that GA does not share the safety record of the airlines.

What would you do? Ban us because of it?

Or maybe take practical steps like the IMC rating to try and help improve the safety situation.

The point about the IR is a simple one. The FAA IR has much less ground school than the JAA one. A lot of the JAA ground school content is irrelevant to the PPL/IR holder and puts people off, I mean how ridiculous is it that people have to go to Gatwick to take tests that are only held once in a blue moon whereas in the States it can all be done in four weeks or so?

I promise you Zorst it isn't about being thick skulled, or having petty ends, it's simply about having safe flying from limited time and money.

[Islander2]

Maybe one day I'll be trapped, but I'll my best not to be trapped, and I trained all my students to do so... and I also told them, if one day they are trapped, how to handle that, and how to query ATC immediately.

Undoubtedly one's first priority in those circumstances, n'est-ce pas?

[Fuji Abound]

Guys

I would be really careful having a debate with posters who have no history here.

Personally I think it is in danger of devaluing a really important debate, and a bit of fun aside, I think it devalues the debate.

Just my opinion of course and carry on as you see fit, but it is one I am going to bow out of, other than the occasional gentle reminder that it may also devalue this excellent forum.