Who controls and checks when you update your flying hours?
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Who controls and checks when you update your flying hours?
Sorry if this is in the wrong section and for it possibly being a dumb question but..
I wondered who controls and checks after you update your hours flying. What does the "log" look like and whos to say you cant just add hours if you wanted to. (Not saying I would at all but just would like to know how the system works)
Thanks
Liam
I wondered who controls and checks after you update your hours flying. What does the "log" look like and whos to say you cant just add hours if you wanted to. (Not saying I would at all but just would like to know how the system works)
Thanks
Liam
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There are all sorts of crimes you can commit because there is nobody watching you 24/7 to see that you don't, and only a chance of being caught if you lie, eg not paying your taxes honestly, or not always driving at or below the speed limit.
Having said which you can write what you like in your log book - it only becomes a crime if you then use the untrue information for some purpose for which true information is required, such as a licence or rating issue or a job application.
Having said which you can write what you like in your log book - it only becomes a crime if you then use the untrue information for some purpose for which true information is required, such as a licence or rating issue or a job application.
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Done in good faith mostly. Browsed through occasionally by examiners or instructors when doing a test, upgrading a licence (i.e. checked by CAA when unfreezing an ATPL) or by a flying club when renting an aircraft.
If being pedantic it could be checked vs hours in the aircraft log though virtually never is.
If being pedantic it could be checked vs hours in the aircraft log though virtually never is.
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It's much more simple than that! The answer is: THE INSURANCE COMPANY! They check after you bend something, but before they pay! And their adjusters are really good at assuring that EVERYTHING was by the book at the time of the bend, before they pay!
If you're paying for insurance (which you certainly are if you rent) make sure that you will get what you paid for, by being truthful before, and after the claim...
If you're paying for insurance (which you certainly are if you rent) make sure that you will get what you paid for, by being truthful before, and after the claim...
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Having said which you can write what you like in your log book - it only becomes a crime if you then use the untrue information for some purpose for which true information is required, such as a licence or rating issue or a job application.
If you have a fatal accident, the authoritoes will take your logbook(s) and check them. If you read accident reports they include information on experience gained from logbooks. A few reports contain information that logbooks have for example mistakes in the addition but overall, the accident investigation and as has been said the insurance will be based on a truthfull record of flying time.
Remember always that you only need to retain (or produce) the previous 2 years record. Anything beyond that is almost cast in stone unless you are applying for a licence.
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DFC
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now if log books got updated anything like the old BP greenshield stamp books...it would be full up already with everyone elses hours and you would be off down to the petrol station to pick up your new toaster. :-)
But like has been said above, its never worth it. Talking to a friend recently who had just sailed through a 1000 hours you could tell that the many log book entries were a great earned achievement.
But like has been said above, its never worth it. Talking to a friend recently who had just sailed through a 1000 hours you could tell that the many log book entries were a great earned achievement.
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It's a bit like cheating at Golf, the only person you are really cheating is yourself. Apart from the fact it is illegal to falsify an entry people should consider the moral implications.
Are there people really so desperate for hours that they would do it? And I am not referring to those who always seem to manage a 15 minute taxi for the logbook on top of the airborne time.
Are there people really so desperate for hours that they would do it? And I am not referring to those who always seem to manage a 15 minute taxi for the logbook on top of the airborne time.
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I realised a while back that I'd been logging hours incorrectly for years to my disadvantage. I'd always logged take off to landing as that was the way it was done when I used to fly gliders. Without thinking, I just carried this on with my power flying until it was pointed out on my last revalidation flight. It equals about 70hours and I rang the CAA out of interest to check what I could do. They said I could go back and rewrite my entire log if I wanted ... but to be honest, at this stage I just can't see the point. I have the hours I need for most things I might want to do, so why mess up my original? At least I can look back and KNOW it's all true and hard earned. I certainly wouldn't have wanted to cheat the system as the only one you cheat is yourself. I can see the attraction when you start out, but later when your hours build past the various milestones, you'd forever feel a fraud. The other thing is, no matter what hours you have logged, experience shows ... and so does lack of it! 
SS
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Even an insurance investigator would only go so far - they will check your logbook against what you have claimed to have on your insurance, but verifying your logbook by comparing to the tech logs of all the acft you have flown? I would imagine that would be very rare unless they smelt a very large rat....
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I was thinking about this last night.
After reading what you lot are saying it seems that (if I wanted to) I could put a couple of extra hours in my log book and know one would be none the wiser right?
What about when apply for your PPL? Lets say I've only done 40 hours and I want my licence so badly I scribble the extra 2 on there and then take my check ride and pass.
Would my licence still be issued?
BTW - I would never EVER do this.
After reading what you lot are saying it seems that (if I wanted to) I could put a couple of extra hours in my log book and know one would be none the wiser right?
What about when apply for your PPL? Lets say I've only done 40 hours and I want my licence so badly I scribble the extra 2 on there and then take my check ride and pass.
Would my licence still be issued?
BTW - I would never EVER do this.
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Your logbook is checked very carefully at initial issue of your PPL. It will probably never be looked at again quite in quite such depth (due to volume) even if you go on to do an ATPL. At such an early stage a rat would smell quite bad! But of course you'd never do such a thing.
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I also know of cases (not myself) where HMRC asked for a logbook and then required confirmation from each airport logged, where the pilot was claiming business travel.
This is to be expected - it's the same with cars. Fraudulent business travel claims are very common, and in the worst cases the customer gets contacted to verify the visit. I've had quite a few such requests over the years in my business. Usually they come from the companies for which the sales rep works/worked but in the came of a sole trader / proprietor doing the alleged crookery the check will be done by HMRC.
I have never come across a pilot forging his logbook (would I know??) but when I used to rent the plane out I had a couple of people (instructors!) forging the fuel usage to get a lower invoice, by resetting the FOB setting on the fuel flowmeter. This is a lot worse...
This is to be expected - it's the same with cars. Fraudulent business travel claims are very common, and in the worst cases the customer gets contacted to verify the visit. I've had quite a few such requests over the years in my business. Usually they come from the companies for which the sales rep works/worked but in the came of a sole trader / proprietor doing the alleged crookery the check will be done by HMRC.
I have never come across a pilot forging his logbook (would I know??) but when I used to rent the plane out I had a couple of people (instructors!) forging the fuel usage to get a lower invoice, by resetting the FOB setting on the fuel flowmeter. This is a lot worse...
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I am sure there is no legal need to log a flight in your personal logbook. If you forget to log a flight, that is not a crime.
Lots of "old" pilots can't be bothered to log flights they do.
The incentive to log a flight comes from the need to build certain airborne experience towards certain licenses/ratings. If you are not wishing to (ever) acquire any new licenses/ratings, then there is no need to log anything beyond the minimum required to renew the PPL or whatever.
It is logging flights which you have not done that is dodgy.
Similarly, not logging flights in the maintenance records is dodgy.
I think that one comes from the FAA PPL not having a JAA-like min-hours requirement - there is only the BFR which is a flight with an FAA instructor.
You can do the same under JAA. If you have no hours logged over the previous 2 years, you have to fly with a PPL examiner. The end result is the same: no need to log any hours.
Lots of "old" pilots can't be bothered to log flights they do.
The incentive to log a flight comes from the need to build certain airborne experience towards certain licenses/ratings. If you are not wishing to (ever) acquire any new licenses/ratings, then there is no need to log anything beyond the minimum required to renew the PPL or whatever.
It is logging flights which you have not done that is dodgy.
Similarly, not logging flights in the maintenance records is dodgy.
FAA don't need you to log your personal flying hours after your training... imagine that!
You can do the same under JAA. If you have no hours logged over the previous 2 years, you have to fly with a PPL examiner. The end result is the same: no need to log any hours.
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I also know of cases (not myself) where HMRC asked for a logbook and then required confirmation from each airport logged, where the pilot was claiming business travel.
Avoid imitations
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I am sure there is no legal need to log a flight in your personal logbook. If you forget to log a flight, that is not a crime.
Personal flying log book
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shallkeep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.
35 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order shallkeep a personal flying log book in which the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable, including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
(3) For the purposes of this article, a helicopter shall be deemed to be in flight from the moment the helicopter first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the rotors are next stopped.
(4) Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in a flight simulator shall be recorded in the log book, including:
(a) the date of the test or examination;
(b) the type of simulator;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted; and
(d) the nature of the test or examination.
I don't think this has ever changed under JARs, EASAs, LASORs or Owsyerfathers.
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OK, ST, thank you for the reference and you appear to be right.
But, what grounds could the CAA prosecute somebody who flew and didn't log it? You are not obtaining any advantage from this "crime".
But, what grounds could the CAA prosecute somebody who flew and didn't log it? You are not obtaining any advantage from this "crime".