No more IMC rating

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Isn't politics fun. (Though I must say that at the level at which I do politics it doesn't get quite as fun as that.)

At least someone somewhere has recognised my point that in a liberal democracy (and that, surely, is the entire point(#) of the European process!) you don't go round taking away people's rights to do things without good reason.

(#)http://www.brettward.co.uk/ironcurtain.jpg - this is now an internal EU border, you don't get shot for trying to walk across it any more.

[wac flyer]

loss of IMC

As a recent member of the forum, I am amazed at how personal the posts become. However, I am sure many will agree with contributions that are more recent. WE ARE a community and the loss of the IMCR would most likely have a major impact on flight safety and or hours flown. I have a current IMC and have logged more than 350 under IFR. The time required for the full IR make it an unrealistic option. This would effectively mean that the days of using a light aircraft for personal business travel.

[S-Works]

so what would you have done if there had been no IMCR in the first place just like the rest of the world?

[IO540]

so what would you have done if there had been no IMCR in the first place just like the rest of the world?

For the answer to that one, get in your plane, leave UK airspace, and fly on for say 1000nm in any random direction, while counting the GA planes which you hear on the radio. Don't bother to spot any (there usually won't be any to spot).

That's the choice. A lot of problems are solved by altogether eliminating the subject matter.

[S-Works]

Thats rubbish IO. There is plenty of GA around Europe despite your rather blinkered view.

I merely played devils advocate and asked the question of what would people have done without an IMCR.

The loss of the IMCR would be unfortunate but hardly the end of the world and it certainly is not the only reason that people are able to do any practical flying.

Lets have a poll and ask how many people really use a light aircraft for 'personal business aviation' that without an IMCR will be unable to fly.

This is not meant as a red rag, it is a genuine question. The IMCR is a UK only rating as we know. The number of Instrument approaches in the UK available in real terms to GA is very low therefore the number of people is equally low. So what sort of personal business are people actually flying on that requires an IMCR that would not be served by aligning PPL standards across Europe?

I ask the question because I actually do a lot of IFR personal travel, mostly CI and near Europe and believe me it's lonely out there.

Like I said not looking for an argument just really interested.

[DFC]

WE ARE a community

Yes but you are very much a very small minority.

If one acepts that the current IMC is a realistic way of operating regular IFR flights then one has to accept that the ICAO IR and the FAA IR and the JAA IR are all way beyond the required standard for safe operation IFR IMC.

The trick is convincing everyone that is the situation because if you can't show that then the majority will continue to see the IMC rating as something that they do not want on their patch (which is now all of Europe).

Just look at BEagle's reaction to a local French rating and imagine all the other pilots in the rest of Europe (as well as some in the UK) having that reaction to the IMC.

The argument that you need the rating because the weather in Europe is not good enough for regular VFR flying gets you no where.

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

There is plenty of GA around Europe despite your rather blinkered view.

A lot of ultralight stuff at a low level, doing short hops around the local clubs, but very little longer range touring goes on. As you well know if you have an IR and use it. Especially true in France (according to French pilots I know personally), which I find really odd. I've done quite a number of trips to the radius of say Greece/Spain and on most of them did not see another GA plane (once outside the UK).

I merely played devils advocate and asked the question of what would people have done without an IMCR.

The loss of the IMCR would be unfortunate but hardly the end of the world and it certainly is not the only reason that people are able to do any practical flying.

That's because

(1) people all over the world fly illegal VFR, and

(2) people living in countries with nicer weather have less need for instrument privileges

The IMCR formalises what people do anyway and makes it legal, in the process adding access to published instrument approaches which one could not otherwise use without drawing attention.

Now, we could have a perfectly good debate on why legalise something which people do anyway and which is impossible to regulate.

I think the answer is that there should be a legal framework, not just because it is "right" but in a more practical sense because it enables the pilot to legally land on an instrument approach without his risk management decisions being affected by the prospect of getting done.

A VFR only pilot who is instrument capable isn't going to ask for an IFR clearance unless he is utterly desperate. I would still do touring if I was limited to VFR but the flight would be strictly outside CAS and would have preplanned GPS "approaches".

The death rate in France is double that of the UK and much of it is CFIT which is exactly what this is about.

[S-Works]

That's because

(1) people all over the world fly illegal VFR, and

(2) people living in countries with nicer weather have less need for instrument privileges

The death rate in France is double that of the UK and much of it is CFIT which is exactly what this is about.

Please provide direct evidence.

[IO540]

[S-Works]

Now come on IO, whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I am just using one of your responses and asking for direct evidence not anecdotal evidence based on something your uncles bob first cousins sister might have said to the nanny.

[dublinpilot]

so what would you have done if there had been no IMCR in the first place just like the rest of the world?

Probably do just what the rest of Europe does....don't fly IFR days. We have no IMCr in Ireland, and I only know of one pilot who uses an IR (and doesn't fly for the airlines). I know of a few who had commerical aspirations and have lappsed IR's, and tons who fly for airlines, but only 1 flying for fun with a current IR.

Not much touring happening here too....people don't seem to have the confidence to go very far. Probably because they aren't trained to fly on anything but beautiful clear days.

dp

[FREDAcheck]

I hate to stir up the argument about illegal IMC flying, but I think there's plenty of evidence that it happens. I know of quite a few people without IMCR happily flying VFR on top (and flying IMC to get there). I watched dozens of them doing it on departure from the PFA Rally a few years ago. (It's possible but very unlikely that all those departing pilots had IMCR; the weather was much worse than forecast, but they were going to get home come what may.) PPRUNE and other bulletin boards contain various hints of people flying VFR on top with no legal way up or down.

Clearly one should be careful of the "it's going to happen so let's make it legal" argument, but I think it's valid if you can make it safe as well as legal by providing the training that leads to a qualification such as IMCR. Which is exactly what we've (currently) got.

[S-Works]

thanks DP.

So far still no responses to my original question just quite a bit of melodrama about how the loss of the IMCR will be the end of flying as we know it.

I am genuinely interested in gathering data on whether the IMCR rating is something that really gets used by a lot of people or whether it is a tiny minority and the rest of people are just upset by the loss of a little used badge.

Now I do know that there are a few people that use it, I used it extensively pre IR as I know did IO. But the numbers so far have not actually come close to double figures.

So come on guys please let me have some real data. This is being gathered to be used towards a positive submission.

[llanfairpg]

Even if the IMC rating goes we, and I suspect many other schools/clubs, will still provide a minimum 10 hour instrument training course.

I am suprised there is not more support for the fact that we are geographically unique as a small narrow island and we sit on the line of the polar front. Surely if we want to keep this rating and the rest of Europe dosnt want us to we should be making a case for why we are different from the rest of Europe and need to keep the rating?

[S-Works]

I am not sure our weather is different enough to make an argument and the Irish get any weather you refer to worse and in advance of us yet they never provided an argument for an IMCR or approved use of the UK one.

[llanfairpg]

As you say you are not sure--but records are available. I would speculate that we get many more days in this country with a cloud base below 1000 feet than in most European countries.

In my experience of operating into Europe I have certainly made more diversions from UK airports than any other.

We also have a unique geographical make up, narrow and long, never far from high ground or the sea.

Yes Ireland gets the weather first but the number of registered pilots in Eire as opposed to the UK must be small.

Not that many countries in Europe get moist south westerleys with the Gulf Stream or first stop unstable polar maritime air.

Or the Haar!

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by FREDAcheck

I hate to stir up the argument about illegal IMC flying, but I think there's plenty of evidence that it happens. I know of quite a few people without IMCR happily flying VFR on top (and flying IMC to get there). I watched dozens of them doing it on departure from the PFA Rally a few years ago.

I suspect, but have no facts, that 'illegal VFR' flying is a very British phenomenon. The rules here are much more fluid than elsewhere (lots of Class G, IFR and some IMC privileges for PPLs, some non-standard VFR restrictions, and a simple set of IFRs that for a PPL often become one with the VFRs).

The anecdotes I have heard tend to involve G-reg aircraft all around Europe and not a lot of local aircraft - for example LFAT on an IMC day seems to have a G-reg but no F reg movements - but that could just be my perspective.
------------
I have an IMC and fly IFR regularly, but I got my IMC off the back of my FAA IR so it doesn't really help Bose's data gathering.

[IO540]

No use doing a survey here; 99% of UK pilots don't read this stuff.

I've seen loads of illegal VFR flight in France and Spain. It's also commonly done in ultralight types, which is why so many of them are IFR equipped these days.

It's equally true that much of Europe outside the UK doesn't fly much - hence my comment about dealing with a problem by legislating it out of existence.

It's true the UK has a nice mix of Class G with (practically) no service in it which facilitates this kind of flying (legal or not) but France has Class E to FL105 or so and it's a free for all for "VFR". However I think VFR in IMC in France is done mostly at low level, not in the Class E "airway" routes; just as well since they contain IFR traffic.

[S-Works]

No use doing a survey here; 99% of UK pilots don't read this stuff.

I've seen loads of illegal VFR flight in France and Spain. It's also commonly done in ultralight types, which is why so many of them are IFR equipped these days.

Which does little to justify the IMCR. I to have seen my fair share of illegal 'VFR' flight mostly by Brits blagging out of places.....

Which also does not justify the IMCR.

I could really do with some hard facts.

[Shunter]

Got my IMCr back in the summer and yes, I do use it regularly. Sometimes it's simply to punch through the cloud to get on top (and back down again), but frequently it's for maintaining IFR zone-transit altitudes. When I've been touring it's been of great help; taking off from a farmstrip in claggy Cornwall in 3000m/800ft, flying on top to Exeter and coming in on the ILS to break cloud at 500ft. Collecting the old girl from her Derby annual, going IMC at 800ft, getting on top at FL50 then taking the kind offer of an SRA into Leeds.

It's all about planning and currency, and I suspect I'm in the minority of IMCr holders. I would guess that a good 50% of flights in the back end of 2007 simply wouldn't have happened without having the rating. The rating is what you make of it; you can get it, then never use it and end up being an over-confident liability. Or... you can get it, use it, hone it and become a very capable instrument pilot.

Do I have £10k to complete an IR in a reasonable timeframe? Not really. The IMCr cost me under £1500 and was done in 3 weeks at a steady pace.
Would having to attend an approved FTO many hours drive away and learn a load of stuff which is utterly irrelevant to flying a Cessna please the missus? Take a guess...