No more IMC rating
Blah Blah Blah
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I can't see this happening without alternatatives being put in place, like the "IR lite"/PPL friendly IR.
Maybe Bose-X has more informed info than me or some website.
Maybe Bose-X has more informed info than me or some website.
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If this happens it would be very bad news.
There is no sub-IR instrument privilege anywhere else in Europe. Australia has one, I believe.
As the EASA process currently appears, there will not be any "reduced IR". Well, not for years and years.
So, the options will be VFR, or the full EASA IR and that is likely to be much the same as the current JAA IR.
But all this is years away anyway (c. 2010) so anything could still happen.
I like the FTN commentary
And according to those present at the recent JAA FCL 001 group meeting in Cologne, the same negative reaction by professional pilot unions would appear to have occurred again, albeit this time by unions outside of the UK.
Pilots' unions
There is no sub-IR instrument privilege anywhere else in Europe. Australia has one, I believe.
As the EASA process currently appears, there will not be any "reduced IR". Well, not for years and years.
So, the options will be VFR, or the full EASA IR and that is likely to be much the same as the current JAA IR.
But all this is years away anyway (c. 2010) so anything could still happen.
I like the FTN commentary
And according to those present at the recent JAA FCL 001 group meeting in Cologne, the same negative reaction by professional pilot unions would appear to have occurred again, albeit this time by unions outside of the UK.
Pilots' unions
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I did make it clear quite some time ago that this was going to happen and I was battered to death over how it would never happen and given a thousand reasons why I was wrong.......
However the jury is still out and both PPLIR and AOPA are fighting very hard to save the rating, this has included a working group with the CAA to attempt to update the standards of training to make them more palatable.
I am not going to despair just yet.
However the jury is still out and both PPLIR and AOPA are fighting very hard to save the rating, this has included a working group with the CAA to attempt to update the standards of training to make them more palatable.
I am not going to despair just yet.
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I don't suppose that anyone with a reasonably decent crystal ball would be able to fore tell what the likely effect on the IMCR holder would be in the 2 years time introduction scenario.
I ask because I was planning to doing the IMCR next year possibly Feb/March time. The full IR is definately not an option - I can't rationalise the time/exams/expense.
When this eventually happens, will it happen with a dead stop or will there be a couple of years leeway from the introduction to the CAA scrapping it? (I'm thinking along the lines of mode S - need it after Q2 2008 but you have X years to install one).
Spending the time and money to do the IMCR is going to be a little galling if it's voided 2 years later. I might as well not bother and just resign myself to the fact that I'll never manage to get anywhere most of the year (hell, the way things are going at ABZ we'll be back to a grass strip and waterlogged most of the year anyway - so I won't be able to used an instrument approach to get home anyway!).
Either way, this is a loose-loose for GA in the UK isn't it.
How many collisions/accidents have been caused by an IMCR holder in the last 10 years?
And does anyone actually have a tangible benefit of the UK being part of Europe? I'm struggling to think of one.
I ask because I was planning to doing the IMCR next year possibly Feb/March time. The full IR is definately not an option - I can't rationalise the time/exams/expense.
When this eventually happens, will it happen with a dead stop or will there be a couple of years leeway from the introduction to the CAA scrapping it? (I'm thinking along the lines of mode S - need it after Q2 2008 but you have X years to install one).
Spending the time and money to do the IMCR is going to be a little galling if it's voided 2 years later. I might as well not bother and just resign myself to the fact that I'll never manage to get anywhere most of the year (hell, the way things are going at ABZ we'll be back to a grass strip and waterlogged most of the year anyway - so I won't be able to used an instrument approach to get home anyway!).
Either way, this is a loose-loose for GA in the UK isn't it.
How many collisions/accidents have been caused by an IMCR holder in the last 10 years?
And does anyone actually have a tangible benefit of the UK being part of Europe? I'm struggling to think of one.
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I don't suppose that anyone with a reasonably decent crystal ball would be able to fore tell what the likely effect on the IMCR holder would be in the 2 years time introduction scenario
None.
Nothing will happen for several more years than that, at least.
None.
Nothing will happen for several more years than that, at least.
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I think you are likely to be wrong on that front IO. I think that the timescales we have been given are a lot shorter than you think.
But it has been a long day and I don't want to get into a debate as to why I am wrong again........
But it has been a long day and I don't want to get into a debate as to why I am wrong again........
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Bose X
There is indeed little point about arguing (was I arguing??) about something which may happen at the end of a long process.
We are at the beginning of this process. Let's not lose sight of this FACT.
To make an even more general comment, the way to lose a huge amount of opportunity in one's life, not to mention a huge amount of money, is to allow every piece of potential bad news to alter one's actions.
In GA, there is such a constant stream of bad news (the pilot forums live on bad news, and the printed media do too because good news doesn't make such good copy) that if one was to actually act on it, one would chuck it all in and take up fishing.
Take the absolute worst case scenario: a pilot who has got the IMCR and uses it for real (like I did before I got the IR, and like I believe you used to). If the IMCR is abolished, what does he actually lose?
- he can still fly in cloud (illegal but who can tell?)
- he can still fly above a solid overcast (may be illegal depending on the detail but who can prove there wasn't a hole)
- he can fly in cloud or poor vis safely
- the 3000m min VFR vis on a JAA PPL is IMC for most purposes, but he can fly in it safely while the rest of Engoland's VFR GA is firmly grounded
- he cannot fly a published instrument approach (short of declaring an emergency)
- he can still fly any unpublished approach (like loads of pilots do right now)
So he has actually lost very little.
There is indeed little point about arguing (was I arguing??) about something which may happen at the end of a long process.
We are at the beginning of this process. Let's not lose sight of this FACT.
To make an even more general comment, the way to lose a huge amount of opportunity in one's life, not to mention a huge amount of money, is to allow every piece of potential bad news to alter one's actions.
In GA, there is such a constant stream of bad news (the pilot forums live on bad news, and the printed media do too because good news doesn't make such good copy) that if one was to actually act on it, one would chuck it all in and take up fishing.
Take the absolute worst case scenario: a pilot who has got the IMCR and uses it for real (like I did before I got the IR, and like I believe you used to). If the IMCR is abolished, what does he actually lose?
- he can still fly in cloud (illegal but who can tell?)
- he can still fly above a solid overcast (may be illegal depending on the detail but who can prove there wasn't a hole)
- he can fly in cloud or poor vis safely
- the 3000m min VFR vis on a JAA PPL is IMC for most purposes, but he can fly in it safely while the rest of Engoland's VFR GA is firmly grounded
- he cannot fly a published instrument approach (short of declaring an emergency)
- he can still fly any unpublished approach (like loads of pilots do right now)
So he has actually lost very little.
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What will happen to the automatic IMCR you get with an ATPL? Will there be a new type of concession? I'd used that "privilege" a couple of times until I was able to renew my SPA IR.
Upto The Buffers
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Minimum Descent Heights (MDHs) allowed for instrument approaches as well as minimum horizontal visibility distances are much more restricted than they are for IR qualified pilots.
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Originally Posted by EDDNR
What will happen to the automatic IMCR you get with an ATPL?
OC619
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What will happen to the automatic IMCR you get with an ATPL? Will there be a new type of concession? I'd used that "privilege" a couple of times until I was able to renew my SPA IR
Erm, well for a start you don't get an IMC with a JAA ATPL for a start and for those old timers with a CAA ATPL they will also lose the IMCR that they got as a freebie. The rating is going full stop not limited to the type of licence it is attached to.
IO. This is near the end of a long process not something that just popped up. I warned about this more than a year ago and you were one of the people that debunked what I said and told us it would never happen.
We continue to fight the IMC corner as you will see from my posting on PPLIR. The battle is not over yet, but don't bury your head!!
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Anyone know where I could find out who sits on this committee? I'd like to make my views known to the Irish Representative (if there is one). I'd at least like to let him/her know that this is something that Irish pilots would like to see adopted across the EU, rather than stamped out.
dp
dp
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If you want to try, call Kevin Swords at the IAA.
I can tell you now that you are wasting your time because the first thing he will tell you is that you can not use it is an EI registered aircraft and consequently it is of no use to Irish pilots. Irish pilots can already fly VFR out of sight of the surface with a basic PPL and don't have the 10Km special VFR limitation because they are UK only licence restrictions. So all you want is to be able to fly IFR.......which requires an IR according to ICAO.
The fact that the FAA does not also is quite a big factor since the long long long term aim is to integrate the two systems.
The opinion of professional pilots has not changed since the introduction of the rating and is one of the reasons for Class A at lower levels in the UK.............to keep these pilot not trained for extended IMC, not able to complete a series of holds and not familiar with SIDS, STARS and unable to fly them in Class A which loads the system.
The SE IR is quite cheap for a 50 odd hour course in a well equipped aircraft.
If you want to fly IFR then you will put the work in.
Regards,
DFC
I can tell you now that you are wasting your time because the first thing he will tell you is that you can not use it is an EI registered aircraft and consequently it is of no use to Irish pilots. Irish pilots can already fly VFR out of sight of the surface with a basic PPL and don't have the 10Km special VFR limitation because they are UK only licence restrictions. So all you want is to be able to fly IFR.......which requires an IR according to ICAO.
The fact that the FAA does not also is quite a big factor since the long long long term aim is to integrate the two systems.
The opinion of professional pilots has not changed since the introduction of the rating and is one of the reasons for Class A at lower levels in the UK.............to keep these pilot not trained for extended IMC, not able to complete a series of holds and not familiar with SIDS, STARS and unable to fly them in Class A which loads the system.
The SE IR is quite cheap for a 50 odd hour course in a well equipped aircraft.
If you want to fly IFR then you will put the work in.
Regards,
DFC
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IO. This is near the end of a long process not something that just popped up. I warned about this more than a year ago and you were one of the people that debunked what I said and told us it would never happen.
You are wrong wrong wrong Bose X. You write this "the end of the world is near" stuff all over the internet. You should know better, from your AOPA and PPL/IR contacts. Why do you keep writing this stuff?
Everybody is entitled to their opinion as to the likely future but they should not write it as fact. It isn't fact it is opinion. EASA's takeover of FCL is scheduled for 2010. That is 3 years (at best, if there is NO resistance to anything whatsoever).
This continual negativity is clearly causing distress to many pilots, especially new pilots who are looking at spending £2000 or so on the IMCR and wonder if it will be clobbered as soon as they get it.
That is as polite as I am going to write this.
But even if you were right - what is Joe Average Pilot supposed to do????
Is he supposed to jump off Beachy Head?
Is he supposed to chuck in flying and take up bird watching?
(let's be frank, there are so few birds in GA that it takes a helluva incentive to hang on in there, among all the anoraks scratching their grey beards while they debate the latest landing fee increases at some remote grass strip)
Let me make a constructive suggestion.
(Hey, what a great new idea for a pilot forum - a constructive suggestion. Whatever next? It's never been done before, maybe I should apply for a patent on the concept.)
What should people do to progress their flying?
p.s. ignore the "professional pilot" drivel from DFC. Actually I am suprised he is still typing; the velcro on his epaulettes must be so worn now that they must be forever falling onto his keyboard
You are wrong wrong wrong Bose X. You write this "the end of the world is near" stuff all over the internet. You should know better, from your AOPA and PPL/IR contacts. Why do you keep writing this stuff?
Everybody is entitled to their opinion as to the likely future but they should not write it as fact. It isn't fact it is opinion. EASA's takeover of FCL is scheduled for 2010. That is 3 years (at best, if there is NO resistance to anything whatsoever).
This continual negativity is clearly causing distress to many pilots, especially new pilots who are looking at spending £2000 or so on the IMCR and wonder if it will be clobbered as soon as they get it.
That is as polite as I am going to write this.
But even if you were right - what is Joe Average Pilot supposed to do????
Is he supposed to jump off Beachy Head?
Is he supposed to chuck in flying and take up bird watching?
(let's be frank, there are so few birds in GA that it takes a helluva incentive to hang on in there, among all the anoraks scratching their grey beards while they debate the latest landing fee increases at some remote grass strip)
Let me make a constructive suggestion.
(Hey, what a great new idea for a pilot forum - a constructive suggestion. Whatever next? It's never been done before, maybe I should apply for a patent on the concept.)
What should people do to progress their flying?
p.s. ignore the "professional pilot" drivel from DFC. Actually I am suprised he is still typing; the velcro on his epaulettes must be so worn now that they must be forever falling onto his keyboard
Upto The Buffers
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If you want to fly IFR then you will put the work in
This has all been covered, but as a GA pilot with no wish to fly for a living I feel that failure to replace the IMC rating (which I consider a highly valuable addition to my license) with anything accessible to private pilots to be asking for seriously large amounts of trouble.
There are good IMC pilots and bad IMC pilots, just as their are good IRs and bad IRs. Sure, the standard required to get there in the first place is so much higher that the lamers get more easily weeded out in IR-land, but there are many IMC holders who can quite happily fly SIDs, STARs and holds as well as any IR.
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Have any of you been in L2K when the weather closes in a bit on a previously nice summers day.
I have.
20 pilots all standing fidgeting in front of the resteraunt.
I was the only one with an instrument rating. A whole lot of them had a lapsed IMCR - couldnt be bothered to renew it last time around they said.
Ten minutes later, and after finishing off the coffee a quick look around reveals half of them have gone. One after another climbs away into the overcast or scuds out over the sea.
I can assure you it is a true story.
Releaving pilots who have or have had an IMCR will be a disaster. More than a few will carry on using it as if nothing has changed.
Some will scud run and yet other new pilots who are no longer able to do an IMCR but who fly regularly will lose their lives.
If and when it happens and if you are part of AOPA, PPLIR, a career pilot or anything to do with EASA you are culpable - know it and believe it, because you will be responsible for one of the greatest debacles in aviation safety in this country.
That is all I have to say.
I have.
20 pilots all standing fidgeting in front of the resteraunt.
I was the only one with an instrument rating. A whole lot of them had a lapsed IMCR - couldnt be bothered to renew it last time around they said.
Ten minutes later, and after finishing off the coffee a quick look around reveals half of them have gone. One after another climbs away into the overcast or scuds out over the sea.
I can assure you it is a true story.
Releaving pilots who have or have had an IMCR will be a disaster. More than a few will carry on using it as if nothing has changed.
Some will scud run and yet other new pilots who are no longer able to do an IMCR but who fly regularly will lose their lives.
If and when it happens and if you are part of AOPA, PPLIR, a career pilot or anything to do with EASA you are culpable - know it and believe it, because you will be responsible for one of the greatest debacles in aviation safety in this country.
That is all I have to say.