No more IMC rating
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Sorry, this thread somehow seemed more appropriate:
Don't worry, I think the sticky was a great idea. I understand your point of view rustle, but I don't think anyone on this forum wants to here this:
I am really sorry about that chaps, I am afraid Rustle really doesnt like me, not that I know him I might add. I am sure he has made some valid points, but I am afraid they are just lost on me.
If the intention is to petition to retain a national rating after EASA take over all FCL then IMHO you're on a hiding to nothing as one of the "benefits" of EASA is standardisation across FCL.
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It suddenly occured to me, what are the French going to do about their Qualification Montagne (Ski and wheel), which authorises flight into high alpine airfields, summer and winter. Is this too not a "National Licence" and will it not be abolished when national licenses and ratings go? I would imagine them being less than happy with just anyone trying to land at say Courchevel. Pure self interest will be the best way of getting the Frence on our side (they are as bad as we are)!
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One part of me actually thinks: I'm not sure I care what EASA do or say, because at the end of the day there is a limit to how much they can actually do about what goes on in the UK under the CAA.
The French have a history of breaking rules laid down by the EU and I doubt they would take a different view if EASA threatened to close down Qualification Montagne, they will just carry on with it just like they did with the British beef ban.
It's similar to international law or the UN or things like the Geneva convention. They only get enforced when the countries who are in a position to do so feel their interests are threatened, and without that they are meaningless. Unlike laws and regulations of sovereign nations there is no police force and judical system to enforce them.
So ultimately if the CAA where to dig its heels in over the IMC rating and continue to issue them there would be f
k all EASA or anyone else for that matter could do about it.
The French have a history of breaking rules laid down by the EU and I doubt they would take a different view if EASA threatened to close down Qualification Montagne, they will just carry on with it just like they did with the British beef ban.
It's similar to international law or the UN or things like the Geneva convention. They only get enforced when the countries who are in a position to do so feel their interests are threatened, and without that they are meaningless. Unlike laws and regulations of sovereign nations there is no police force and judical system to enforce them.
So ultimately if the CAA where to dig its heels in over the IMC rating and continue to issue them there would be f
k all EASA or anyone else for that matter could do about it.
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It suddenly occured to me, what are the French going to do about their Qualification Montagne (Ski and wheel), which authorises flight into high alpine airfields, summer and winter. Is this too not a "National Licence" and will it not be abolished when national licenses and ratings go? I would imagine them being less than happy with just anyone trying to land at say Courchevel. Pure self interest will be the best way of getting the Frence on our side (they are as bad as we are)!
So ultimately if the CAA where to dig its heels in over the IMC rating and continue to issue them there would be fk all EASA or anyone else for that matter could do about it.
The CAA will no longer have any control over licensing, they will be a field office to EASA and will be issuing EASA licences. They will be unable to issue anything that is not an EASA rating.
In future there will no UK ANO just an EASA version of it.
Come on guys if you really are going to motivate people into supporting the cause the very least you can do is gain an understanding of the position we are in.
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I'm not sure I care what EASA do or say, because at the end of the day there is a limit to how much they can actually do about what goes on in the UK under the CAA.
The practice is that anybody can fly any way they like in UK Class G, under "VFR". Or abroad for that matter. Enroute, there is no way this can ever be enforced.
The major immediate drawback of killing the IMCR will be that one will not be able to land on an instrument approach in real IMC - short of declaring a mayday. This will encourage DIY approaches; these may be made illegal but this is unenforceable.
The slightly lesser drawback will be that one will not be able to depart from an airfield in CAS (e.g. Bournemouth) if the conditions are sub VFR - this varies but usually means cloudbase below 1200-1500ft or so. I believe ICAO says something like 1500ft. Currently, it is normal practice to depart from a Class G airport as "VFR" under practicaly any conditions so long as the vis is not quite zero, and I guess this will continue. At non-ATC airfields this cannot be stopped anyway.
The longer term problem is that IMCR training will obviously have to cease and, with the passage of time, the number of pilots who will be able to safely fly using "imaginative VFR" will reduce. Eventually, there will be just a few old hands left, plus some current IR pilots, plus some cowboys. This is what they have in the rest of Europe, but most of the rest of Europe has very little GA activity anyway.
The practice is that anybody can fly any way they like in UK Class G, under "VFR". Or abroad for that matter. Enroute, there is no way this can ever be enforced.
The major immediate drawback of killing the IMCR will be that one will not be able to land on an instrument approach in real IMC - short of declaring a mayday. This will encourage DIY approaches; these may be made illegal but this is unenforceable.
The slightly lesser drawback will be that one will not be able to depart from an airfield in CAS (e.g. Bournemouth) if the conditions are sub VFR - this varies but usually means cloudbase below 1200-1500ft or so. I believe ICAO says something like 1500ft. Currently, it is normal practice to depart from a Class G airport as "VFR" under practicaly any conditions so long as the vis is not quite zero, and I guess this will continue. At non-ATC airfields this cannot be stopped anyway.
The longer term problem is that IMCR training will obviously have to cease and, with the passage of time, the number of pilots who will be able to safely fly using "imaginative VFR" will reduce. Eventually, there will be just a few old hands left, plus some current IR pilots, plus some cowboys. This is what they have in the rest of Europe, but most of the rest of Europe has very little GA activity anyway.
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Come on guys if you really are going to motivate people into supporting the cause the very least you can do is gain an understanding of the position we are in.
Last edited by Contacttower; 3rd Dec 2007 at 11:36.
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Originally Posted by bose-x
Not wanting to be rude but that shows a breath taking naivety and total lack of understanding about just what we have given up to be part of EASA.
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Now, either because it is too difficult to manage or because it is expedient, EASA might be looking to delegate some of the low-level licensing (aircrew and aircraft) back to "national" bodies.
Disregarding what I said earlier that bose took issue with that sounds more like a stay of execution for the IMC rating rather than actually saving it- EASA will one day want to 'complete' the take over even if they can't do it in the near future.
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You need to be very clear on where the power lies. EASA will delegate tasks back to the CAA but this does not change the game. It will still be EASA licencing and EASA rules with no power of change by the national aurhorities.
The CAA will be a field office following the party line.
The CAA will be a field office following the party line.
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As I understand it they will be included into differences training requiring a logbook sign off
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One question will be what the privileges of a pan European PPL will be. Will they be an improvement on what is permitted in the UK, i.e. perhaps the ICAO minima? Then perhaps you will be able to get differences training to allow the PPL holder to fly an ILS
We could call it something like the Instrument Meteorological Rating in order to differentiate it from a proper instrument rating?
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PPLs can already fly an ILS in VMC under VFR
So........... I can fly VFR from the UK to say Frankfurt and ask for an ILS?
It sort of works in the UK, where ATC will probably just assume the pilot has an IMCR.
The IMCR itself dates back to c. 1970. Before that, a plain PPL could fly in IMC.
So........... I can fly VFR from the UK to say Frankfurt and ask for an ILS?
It sort of works in the UK, where ATC will probably just assume the pilot has an IMCR.
The IMCR itself dates back to c. 1970. Before that, a plain PPL could fly in IMC.
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Originally Posted by IO540
So........... I can fly VFR from the UK to say Frankfurt and ask for an ILS?
I know it isn't likely to be approved as they probably have VRPs and expect regular "circuit" behaviour, but what is the legal prohibition you seem to be implying?
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IMC too good to lose!
I am a simple GA pilot who wishes to fly as safely as possible. I regained my IMC rating nearly two years ago and have always regarded it as a 'get you out of trouble rating' rather than an excuse to fly in conditions which I am not capable of dealing with. I have had the benefit of flying recently with a like-minded pilot in our syndicate who has a similar opinion and we have started 'simulated IMC' flying practice together in order for both of us to try and stay current. In conjunction with flying with an instructor, this has been very enjoyable and has much improved my flying abilities.
I personally think the IMC rating is extremely valuable and cannot understand why it would be removed simply to harmonise with Europe. I think in fact that they should introduce an equivalent throughout Europe.
However, I do agree that an IMC is not a licence to deliberately fly in marginal conditions and hope for the best!
I personally think the IMC rating is extremely valuable and cannot understand why it would be removed simply to harmonise with Europe. I think in fact that they should introduce an equivalent throughout Europe.
However, I do agree that an IMC is not a licence to deliberately fly in marginal conditions and hope for the best!
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I am getting information from my colleague in FCL working group that the UK IMCR is under discussion today / tomorrow, as well as 'review of IR'. More news soon.
Those who are aiming arrows at EASA are probably shooting at the wrong target. Look at the process and the players - EU agenda, airspace, etc. More anon.
Those who are aiming arrows at EASA are probably shooting at the wrong target. Look at the process and the players - EU agenda, airspace, etc. More anon.
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Those who are aiming arrows at EASA are probably shooting at the wrong target. Look at the process and the players - EU agenda, airspace, etc. More anon.
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I have a difficulty in that I have an intimate knowledge of the procedures and protocols of working groups at a certain tower block in Germany. In particular, the proceedings are not published outside a group until a proposal is published for public consultation. As has been demonstrated in at least one working group in 2007, external pressures on a group can be totally counter-productive and lead to disbandment of activities. Petitioning at this stage falls into this category. This is the way the system works. Abiding by the system and process can be productive, however, even if frustrating at times.
Therefore, all I can say is that I have had a Christmas dream and the story goes like this:
The importance of the Santa being able to fly through clouds to deliver Christmas gifts has been acknowledged by the residents of a castle in Germany, in relation to the skies over a large island. Many in the Community of Santas and their logistics chiefs regard this rating as not satisfactory for wandering around the skies on the mainland, but the great wizard of the Belgrano said ‘fear ye not, for I have seen the great safety benefit of this ability to navigate through clouds and it should be preserved, even where the training may be regarded by some as less than required for driving a large metal sleigh.’ ‘But can you prove its worth?’ asked the big chiefs who control the large metal sleighs in the skies. ‘Not statistically’ says the man from Belgrano, ‘but there are 18,000 Santas who will go on strike at Christmas if they can’t fly through clouds.’ The man in charge of the large metal sleighs was greatly disturbed and one of chiefs who oversees the Santas of large metal sleighs was vehemently opposed to allowing the island’s Santas to fly in clouds.
‘We must do something about this’ says the guardian of the tower. ‘How about using the exemption in Article 10 of the regulation for Santas, to assist those in the island’s skies for the four year transition period’ suggests someone, ‘ whilst the folks in the tower work out a solution to the rather over-burdensome requirements for the rating that these Super Santas have?’ ‘Good idea’ they agree, ‘there are two types of Santa flying in clouds and we need alignment on the mainland for all these people, but it must be possible to allow both to continue flying in clouds not just over the island but on the mainland too.’ ‘This will involve grandfather rights for Santas on the island so they can fly through clouds on the mainland’ they say. ‘Of course’ someone was heard to say.
The discussion amongst all the chiefs and the union representatives of Santas ended on a very positive note with constructive proposals for a way forward. The chief said not to expect all the presents to be delivered this Christmas though as the logistics of the operation will take time.
The dream was a little unclear on some details but I did wake up with a smile on my face, thanks to my colleague’s efforts. Maybe the details will be made available to me soon and I can clarify parts of the dream.
Goodnight!
Therefore, all I can say is that I have had a Christmas dream and the story goes like this:
The importance of the Santa being able to fly through clouds to deliver Christmas gifts has been acknowledged by the residents of a castle in Germany, in relation to the skies over a large island. Many in the Community of Santas and their logistics chiefs regard this rating as not satisfactory for wandering around the skies on the mainland, but the great wizard of the Belgrano said ‘fear ye not, for I have seen the great safety benefit of this ability to navigate through clouds and it should be preserved, even where the training may be regarded by some as less than required for driving a large metal sleigh.’ ‘But can you prove its worth?’ asked the big chiefs who control the large metal sleighs in the skies. ‘Not statistically’ says the man from Belgrano, ‘but there are 18,000 Santas who will go on strike at Christmas if they can’t fly through clouds.’ The man in charge of the large metal sleighs was greatly disturbed and one of chiefs who oversees the Santas of large metal sleighs was vehemently opposed to allowing the island’s Santas to fly in clouds.
‘We must do something about this’ says the guardian of the tower. ‘How about using the exemption in Article 10 of the regulation for Santas, to assist those in the island’s skies for the four year transition period’ suggests someone, ‘ whilst the folks in the tower work out a solution to the rather over-burdensome requirements for the rating that these Super Santas have?’ ‘Good idea’ they agree, ‘there are two types of Santa flying in clouds and we need alignment on the mainland for all these people, but it must be possible to allow both to continue flying in clouds not just over the island but on the mainland too.’ ‘This will involve grandfather rights for Santas on the island so they can fly through clouds on the mainland’ they say. ‘Of course’ someone was heard to say.
The discussion amongst all the chiefs and the union representatives of Santas ended on a very positive note with constructive proposals for a way forward. The chief said not to expect all the presents to be delivered this Christmas though as the logistics of the operation will take time.
The dream was a little unclear on some details but I did wake up with a smile on my face, thanks to my colleague’s efforts. Maybe the details will be made available to me soon and I can clarify parts of the dream.
Goodnight!