No more IMC rating
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: BUCKS
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
18 years ago I may not have any choice but to follow a full IR or not use the plane as a practical mode of transport. However, i think most would agree that misses the point.
We have a rating that most believe is of practical advantage and a contribution towards flight safety!
We have a rating that most believe is of practical advantage and a contribution towards flight safety!
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yadda yadda yadda, we have heard your view on why a thousand times. Boy you really do dislike the airlines types!
But that does not help coming up with a sensible justification that has to be acceptable to these 'committee types' you refer to.
But that does not help coming up with a sensible justification that has to be acceptable to these 'committee types' you refer to.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DFC
Flying in very good VMC above an overcast has a great many advantages over flying below an overcast in miserable visibility as you will know.
There are many occasions when this works very well for en route flying where the departure and arrival are well above minima.
It is a safer and more effective alternative for all concerned.
There are many who do not have an understanding of the issues that are involved. That this is so is indicative of the dreadful failure of the representative bodies in the past to do what they are paid to do.
I cannot begin to tell you the number of emails I have now had from pilots and other interested parties who have expressed that they has no idea how the sytem worked.
There are equally those who fully understand the issues involved, but are quick to dismiss them, rather than support and develop what is in my opinion a very worth while campaign.
If you fundamentally believe in something such as this and if you are more eloquent and better able to set out the issues than you feel are those who are trying to do somehting about it, you would do as well to support them.
Personally I do not have a vested interest, so in that respect it matters not one bit to me. For that reason I feel I can take a detached view and I can tell you that when already nearly 1,000 pilots support the campaign, not to mention a number of other very experienced and influencial individuals I feel I can safely conclude that whatever the outcome we are doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Flying in very good VMC above an overcast has a great many advantages over flying below an overcast in miserable visibility as you will know.
There are many occasions when this works very well for en route flying where the departure and arrival are well above minima.
It is a safer and more effective alternative for all concerned.
There are many who do not have an understanding of the issues that are involved. That this is so is indicative of the dreadful failure of the representative bodies in the past to do what they are paid to do.
I cannot begin to tell you the number of emails I have now had from pilots and other interested parties who have expressed that they has no idea how the sytem worked.
There are equally those who fully understand the issues involved, but are quick to dismiss them, rather than support and develop what is in my opinion a very worth while campaign.
If you fundamentally believe in something such as this and if you are more eloquent and better able to set out the issues than you feel are those who are trying to do somehting about it, you would do as well to support them.
Personally I do not have a vested interest, so in that respect it matters not one bit to me. For that reason I feel I can take a detached view and I can tell you that when already nearly 1,000 pilots support the campaign, not to mention a number of other very experienced and influencial individuals I feel I can safely conclude that whatever the outcome we are doing the right thing for the right reasons.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps Dublin Pilot would like to remind us just how much touring has been done in his club........Have members flown to Italy, France, Spain etc. All PPL flying VFR. It ain't rocket science.
I'm not sure how much use this will be to you, but in reply to your question.
I'm in a club with about 40 members, and have been a member there for about 3 or 4 years now. In that period, I have toured around much of France, a little bit of Spain, and extensively around the UK. One other club member has toured much of France and the UK (while flying with me). Four of us did a Spanish tour in 2006, but they only did it because they had someone else to 'show them what to do'. They wouldn't have done it unless I organised it, planned all the routes and flights for them, showed them were to get the required info, organised PPR, explained the different airspace etc.
So apart from the friend that has toured with me, and apart from the two others who be brought along on the Spanish trip (and that was their only foreign trip), I reckon no more than four other members of the club have left the island in the 3 or 4 years that I've been a member. Of those four or five, none ventured any further than the Isle of Mann or Wales. What's worrying is that I don't think that this is untypical. There is another club located beside us, and I think they would be in a similar position....one or two members will venture far afield, and the vast majority will stick to local flights.
In the school where I trained (one of the busiest in the country at the time) I can only recollect hearing of one PPL who ventured to the Isle of Mann, and noone any further. The one exception to this was a school organised student fly out to Avranche.
People are afraid of getting stuck in bad weather when going away. I won't pretend that it's the only reason, there are others, such as costs, experience vs confidence, family commitments and probably (as IO always says) the PPL training not equipping them with the skills to do serious flights. But I do believe that the fear of the weather is a big part of it. Remember from the point of view of people in the South East of the UK, they don't have far to go to reach the continent, and hopefully some nicer weather. We generally have at least three-four hours of flying before we reach the continent (depending on speeds and locations).
I hope EASA decides to look at the LAPL again, and allow for IMC privileges to be attached to it. It would make a huge difference to us over here.
dp
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, lets say that the IMCr goes.....
In that case I think it would be fair to expect that ALL FI's MUST hold a valid IR to exercise the privileges of the FI rating and be paid for it. How about that then? I bet that would get many complaints, but if we apply the same safety mentality as EASA I think the paying public should be offered the best protection.
The reason I say this is that I have flown with many UK FI's who only have an IMCr or lapsed IR (and using IMCr privileges). Conversely every US FI I have flown with has an IR, and the majority of them have the CFII rating (instrument instructor)....
I think that when the IMCr goes, people won't bother doing further instrument training. I do know of foreigners who come to the UK to do an IMCr, yet wouldn't bother doing further instrument training in their home country. Why bother? You may as well go to the USA, do 15 hrs instrument at a cost of $1500 and 5 days while you have a holiday.
Everyone will lose if the IMCr dies a death....
In that case I think it would be fair to expect that ALL FI's MUST hold a valid IR to exercise the privileges of the FI rating and be paid for it. How about that then? I bet that would get many complaints, but if we apply the same safety mentality as EASA I think the paying public should be offered the best protection.
The reason I say this is that I have flown with many UK FI's who only have an IMCr or lapsed IR (and using IMCr privileges). Conversely every US FI I have flown with has an IR, and the majority of them have the CFII rating (instrument instructor)....
I think that when the IMCr goes, people won't bother doing further instrument training. I do know of foreigners who come to the UK to do an IMCr, yet wouldn't bother doing further instrument training in their home country. Why bother? You may as well go to the USA, do 15 hrs instrument at a cost of $1500 and 5 days while you have a holiday.
Everyone will lose if the IMCr dies a death....
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
- Flying schools will suffer with less revenue - less people continuing to train post PPL
- Instrument skills of the PPL will reduce
- Safety will be reduced
- FI's will be required to maintain IRs (to get on top in bad weather)
- Etc....
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flying schools will suffer with less revenue - less people continuing to train post PPL
* will they? IMCR rating issue is constantly falling so I am not sure that adds up.
Instrument skills of the PPL will reduce
* An IR will equally enhance instrument skills
Safety will be reduced
* Please define exactly how this will happen, not just anecodtal evidence but hard facts.
FI's will be required to maintain IRs (to get on top in bad weather)
Etc....
* GOOD, might improve the training standards. Or maybe they should not be getting on top when teaching VFR courses?
* will they? IMCR rating issue is constantly falling so I am not sure that adds up.
Instrument skills of the PPL will reduce
* An IR will equally enhance instrument skills
Safety will be reduced
* Please define exactly how this will happen, not just anecodtal evidence but hard facts.
FI's will be required to maintain IRs (to get on top in bad weather)
Etc....
* GOOD, might improve the training standards. Or maybe they should not be getting on top when teaching VFR courses?
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
* An IR will equally enhance instrument skills
I have succeeded in negotiating being allowed to spend enough to get myself an IMCR over the next year or so, but an IR would be completely out of the question.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: U.K.
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Instrument skills of the PPL will reduce
* An IR will equally enhance instrument skills
* An IR will equally enhance instrument skills
FI's will be required to maintain IRs (to get on top in bad weather)
Etc....
* GOOD, might improve the training standards. Or maybe they should not be getting on top when teaching VFR courses?
Etc....
* GOOD, might improve the training standards. Or maybe they should not be getting on top when teaching VFR courses?
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Down at the sharp pointy end, where all the weather is made.
Age: 74
Posts: 1,684
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
3 Posts
Or maybe they should not be getting on top when teaching VFR courses?
It can be frustrating for instructor and student alike when poor weather means that we can't fly. If we cancelled every trip because conditions aren't CAVOK then we'd not get anywhere. No, we DON'T launch into IMC or conduct lessons 'on top', but occasionally we encounter cloud lower than the forecast on the way to the training area. With an IMC rating, I'm able to momentarily take control and get us to good VMC on the other side. We train in the Aylesbury area and the Chiltern ridge sometimes suffers from orographic cloud when the region to the North and South is clear.
Do you find this position reasonable, or should we turn back at the first sign of reduced visibility?
Actually, as a school, we're very conservative with our wx minima and I hope that this rubs off on the students!
TheOddOne
Bose, your posts today rather give the impression that you don't support the IMCR. You've questioned every post in favour of the IMCR. I thought you had said that you supported the continuation of the IMCR (while explaining that you thought it is doomed, whatever we do). Perhaps you are just playing devil's advocate in order to get people to clarify their positions?
Forgive me for asking for repetition, but I'd appreciate if you could restate your views on the value of the IMCR (no matter whether you think it's doomed), in view of today's posts.
Forgive me for asking for repetition, but I'd appreciate if you could restate your views on the value of the IMCR (no matter whether you think it's doomed), in view of today's posts.
alt' option..
My proposed solution....
FAA / IR, especially with the $/£ rate..., get a good aero lawyer to sort the ownership / registration etc & off you go.......or better still...emigrate & to hell with euro aviation...
{{{{{{{{{{
exit stage left awaiting the torrent of comments :-)
FAA / IR, especially with the $/£ rate..., get a good aero lawyer to sort the ownership / registration etc & off you go.......or better still...emigrate & to hell with euro aviation...
{{{{{{{{{{
exit stage left awaiting the torrent of comments :-)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps you are just playing devil's advocate in order to get people to clarify their positions?
And I was beginning to think people were incapable of seeing past there own dogma.....
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have stated my views on the IMCR on many occasions. I think it is a fine rating IF it is taught to the correct standards and the advice of the CAA is followed with regard to use and minima. I think the problem lies in the use of it as mini IR and the ignoring of the training advice which is not done in a quiet lets just get on with way but in a highly vocal barrack room lawyer style. You only have to read the endless discussion on minima and why an IMCR should be allowed to use the airways because they are just as good as an IR holder.
This is exactly the sort of thing that is thrown back at us in committee by the Europeans and more importantly the airlines and as why the IMCR is under the spotlight in the first place.
I have really just tried to play devils advocate with my recent posts and make the people who are working on campaigns to save the rating actually think about why they want to save it and what it is going to be used for.
The weather and safety arguments don't stand up and have been countered by many. Even DFC who I would argue with over the colour of the sky makes valid points. But everyone on here is hell bent on shouting down reasoned argument with standard dogma and not actually coming up with a genuine counter argument that will stack up.
Yes we have to save the IMCR, but why? Answer please.........
This is exactly the sort of thing that is thrown back at us in committee by the Europeans and more importantly the airlines and as why the IMCR is under the spotlight in the first place.
I have really just tried to play devils advocate with my recent posts and make the people who are working on campaigns to save the rating actually think about why they want to save it and what it is going to be used for.
The weather and safety arguments don't stand up and have been countered by many. Even DFC who I would argue with over the colour of the sky makes valid points. But everyone on here is hell bent on shouting down reasoned argument with standard dogma and not actually coming up with a genuine counter argument that will stack up.
Yes we have to save the IMCR, but why? Answer please.........
Bose, thanks for restating your views. Broadly I agree.
Not quite sure which weather and safety arguments you mean, as there have been so many. Personally I think it does add to safety and does allow PPLs to fly safely in poorer weather than is possible without IMCR training (and currency). For example, the IMCR training is designed to allow a PPL to land safely in forward visibility of 1.8km instead of 3km, and to navigate safely in IMC or out of sight of the surface. To me that makes a weather and safety argument in favour of IMCR, but I suspect this isn't what you mean. And I agree entirely with what you say on following CAA advice on minima.
The weather and safety arguments don't stand up and have been countered by many.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 939
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bose-x wrote
OK I'll have a go. We have to save the IMCR because it is the best available start point for an accessible PPL/IR. IMHO if it is enhanced by tighter tolerances requiring more practice and supported by the addition of knowledge of SIDs, STARS, flight planning, airways, BRNAV and met then bob's your uncle. That's a much more efficient way to create the PPL/IR than to try to cut lumps out of the existing IR syllabuses.
No-one quarrels with the flying demands it's the worthless theory and the consequent costs that we're all fighting against.
I'll also remind you of my earlier posts that there's a lot of trips I've done between CI and UK that I couldn't have done without IMCR either practically or legally.
Edited to add: BTW I'm an old but not bold pilot
Yes we have to save the IMCR, but why? Answer please.........
No-one quarrels with the flying demands it's the worthless theory and the consequent costs that we're all fighting against.
I'll also remind you of my earlier posts that there's a lot of trips I've done between CI and UK that I couldn't have done without IMCR either practically or legally.
Edited to add: BTW I'm an old but not bold pilot