What Ever Happened to BCT at Kemble
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Criminal BCT merger with 'FLYING CLUB KEMBLE'
Hi Vertiginous, what a mess. Could not understand where Sp-Branch suddenly came from either. The strange thread was posted on 21st Jan 08 by 'driver 21' who was located overseas and is now apparently in Exeter, gets around a bit and only 2 threads!
It would seem from this chain of info that an illegal avoidance could be presented formally.
Perhaps a new thread could be instigated to provide other victims with the chance to vent their feelings.
"IS THERE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS LOST MONEY TO BCT AVIATION, KEMBLE OR INDIVIDUALS RELATED TO THEM?"
In earlier threads the majority of members have been listed along with home addresses. Get mailing!!!!!!!!!
It would seem from this chain of info that an illegal avoidance could be presented formally.
Perhaps a new thread could be instigated to provide other victims with the chance to vent their feelings.
"IS THERE ANYONE ELSE WHO HAS LOST MONEY TO BCT AVIATION, KEMBLE OR INDIVIDUALS RELATED TO THEM?"
In earlier threads the majority of members have been listed along with home addresses. Get mailing!!!!!!!!!
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MERGER of 'FLYING CLUB KEMBLE' WITH 'BCT AVIATION'.
Thanks, not really chasing the office boy. It would seem he was BCT at certain points of his interesting career (if that is what you can call it), who is this Paul, what is his actual name, where is he, what is his web address for TIA, who is TIA, when was he the owner/MD of BCT and till when if at all, is he a pilot, private, CPL, Instructor, Concorde? Perhaps just a DJ with a mental issue but large piggy bank.
Yes, you are correct, someone is spending my money and I suspect many others dosh too.
A new thread could be in order.
"Anyone else heard of financial losses with BCT and or Paul Shanley or other nick-name"?
At least one other has indicated a loss with a CCJ issued at Bristol County Court. Any one else out there?
Yes, you are correct, someone is spending my money and I suspect many others dosh too.
A new thread could be in order.
"Anyone else heard of financial losses with BCT and or Paul Shanley or other nick-name"?
At least one other has indicated a loss with a CCJ issued at Bristol County Court. Any one else out there?
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Suggested action
It looks as though we know more than enough to get something underway.
First, and most importantly, there should be no threatening behaviour at any stage. This would be very counterproductive. Don't give anyone any rope. The object has to be to find out whatever you can, then pass it to the police and HMRC. The principals should be encouraged to say as much as possible, and any threatening behaviour will not help this.
Someone needs to visit the new merged company at Kemble and speak nicely to Edmund Hewertson about the financial circumstances of the merger. You could try ringing or e-mailing — the number is 01285 771386, and the e-mail address is [email protected] — but an unannounced visit would be better. Nice and polite. Suggest to him that he's not a suspect — an unsuspecting victim, perhaps. Tell him that BCT walked off with customers' money and you're trying to trace it. Ask him about the financial background of the merger, and about the financial relationship between BCT and TIA. Listen to his replies, note them down, then leave. Don't argue with him. If he stonewalls, just note it.
The delicate question of Pawl Shanley's whereabouts may actually be quite simple: he has told Companies House that he lives at this address:
1 Patsyat Cottage, Kemble, GL7 6AY
and maybe he does. Look on Multimap — it's opposite the airfield. Any visit to this address should be particularly passive. Just tell him you're a creditor of BCT and let him talk. My prediction is that he will either a) produce a huge amount of utter gibberish, or b) slam the door. Don't argue, and don't get angry. If he slams the door, just leave. This will be more scary for him, not less. He knows that you know where he lives. He will assume you will be back, but he doesn't know when or with whom. The imagination is very powerful. Just leave and let him cook.
It might be useful to take a small, unobtrusive voice recorder along to these encounters. A video camera is so very tempting, but it would undoubtedly discourage your interviewees from confiding in you.
Remember, Hewertson and Shanley might tell you something — deliberately or accidentally — that's useful to HMRC.
First, and most importantly, there should be no threatening behaviour at any stage. This would be very counterproductive. Don't give anyone any rope. The object has to be to find out whatever you can, then pass it to the police and HMRC. The principals should be encouraged to say as much as possible, and any threatening behaviour will not help this.
Someone needs to visit the new merged company at Kemble and speak nicely to Edmund Hewertson about the financial circumstances of the merger. You could try ringing or e-mailing — the number is 01285 771386, and the e-mail address is [email protected] — but an unannounced visit would be better. Nice and polite. Suggest to him that he's not a suspect — an unsuspecting victim, perhaps. Tell him that BCT walked off with customers' money and you're trying to trace it. Ask him about the financial background of the merger, and about the financial relationship between BCT and TIA. Listen to his replies, note them down, then leave. Don't argue with him. If he stonewalls, just note it.
The delicate question of Pawl Shanley's whereabouts may actually be quite simple: he has told Companies House that he lives at this address:
1 Patsyat Cottage, Kemble, GL7 6AY
and maybe he does. Look on Multimap — it's opposite the airfield. Any visit to this address should be particularly passive. Just tell him you're a creditor of BCT and let him talk. My prediction is that he will either a) produce a huge amount of utter gibberish, or b) slam the door. Don't argue, and don't get angry. If he slams the door, just leave. This will be more scary for him, not less. He knows that you know where he lives. He will assume you will be back, but he doesn't know when or with whom. The imagination is very powerful. Just leave and let him cook.
It might be useful to take a small, unobtrusive voice recorder along to these encounters. A video camera is so very tempting, but it would undoubtedly discourage your interviewees from confiding in you.
Remember, Hewertson and Shanley might tell you something — deliberately or accidentally — that's useful to HMRC.
Last edited by Vertiginous; 21st Feb 2008 at 21:21.
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I have absolutely nothing to do with BCT or any other business in Kemble, other than having in the past been a customer of the flying school Kemble before it closed. Ed Hewertson was one of the instructors there, and when it went bump, he bought the assets, and started a flying club and charter business. He is one of the nicest and brightest chaps you could come across, and certainly isn't an idiot. Whatever shady dealings Pawl has got up to in the past are up to him - nobody else.
I have just bought a house, and therefore am somewhat skint, but hope to become a customer of the flying club there again before too long.
I have just bought a house, and therefore am somewhat skint, but hope to become a customer of the flying club there again before too long.
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Flybuddy paid his money in 2005. Shanley was not a Director until 2007. It's therefore most unlikely that Shanley had anything to do with the money disappearing. If you think there was an amount sitting in BCT's bank account that showed in the accounts as a credit on Flybuddy's account when Shanley took over and that Shanley then spent it I suggest you go down to the bottom of your garden and have a nice relaxing chat with the fairies who clearly inhabit it.
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Corporate responsibility (attn Mike Cross)
BCT went bust owing money. At that time, Pawl Shanley was the sole director. He therefore has the usual legal responsibilities of a director towards BCT's creditors. Mr Hewertson may be the nicest chap on earth, but his company merged with TIA, an entity that was formed from the defunct BCT and which appears to have existed on paper only. That is the extent — be it great or small — of his involvement. I do not believe Hewertson to be a thief, and I have not intentionally suggested that I do. What I do believe is that he has some knowledge of how (or whether) BCT's remaining assets were transferred to TIA.
The bank account of a company isn't full of discrete sums of money with people's names on them. When a company goes bust, the creditors must fight (usually in court) over what's left. In this case, though, the 'what's left' appears to have turned into TIA rather than being distributed to creditors. This is a problem legally as well as morally. The idea that Pawl Shanley went shopping with a specific person's money is nonsense and has not been floated here.
The fairies at the bottom of my garden deny involvement.
The bank account of a company isn't full of discrete sums of money with people's names on them. When a company goes bust, the creditors must fight (usually in court) over what's left. In this case, though, the 'what's left' appears to have turned into TIA rather than being distributed to creditors. This is a problem legally as well as morally. The idea that Pawl Shanley went shopping with a specific person's money is nonsense and has not been floated here.
The fairies at the bottom of my garden deny involvement.
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Mike Cross wrote:
The amount would not have been on a bank statement, but the company's annual report and accounts should have shown FlyBuddy's advance payment (until FlyBuddy had fully drawn down against it), so yes, Shanley as sole director should have known. The balance sheet would show this quite clearly, as it happens.
If you think there was an amount sitting in BCT's bank account that showed in the accounts as a credit on Flybuddy's account when Shanley took over and that Shanley then spent it I suggest you go down to the bottom of your garden and have a nice relaxing chat with the fairies who clearly inhabit it.
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OK I'll try a simpler explanation.
Flybuddy paid his money over in 2005
The last accounts filed at Companies House were to 30/11/2005 no accounts have been filed for the years to 30/11/2006 or to 30/11/2007
Shanley became a Director on 28/2/2007
Venting your wrath on Shanley won't get you anywhere. Shanley was not there when the money was taken and was not there when the last accounts were drawn up, or even when the next set of accounts were due.
The balance sheet would not show Flybuddy's money. It would have simply reduced the value of current assets. With correct accounting practice Flybuddy's account should have been in credit, which would have served to reduce the balance of accounts receivable, which is part of current assets.
Shanley could be made personally liable if the company continued to trade while it was insolvent. Having liabilities that exceed your assets does not make you insolvent. The company becomes insolvent when it can no longer meet its debts as they become due. This may be due to no fault of the Directors. For example if a major customer goes bust and cannot pay what he owes. On a more spectacular level Northern Rock isn't insolvent because it continues to be able to pay its debts as they become due. If we taxpayers had not stepped when it was unable to obtain finance then it would be. If it had become insolvent it would have been as a result of a change in the lending policies of players in the wholesale money markets who cut off its finance.
Nothing that I've seen in this thread suggests to me that Shanley trousered any funds. It looks more likely to me that he naively took on a failing business that had no proper accounts and subsequently turned out to be a tin of worms. It is normal when someone takes over a business for some cash to change hands. If Shanley paid money for BCT then he's lost it. It's also normal for a bank or other provider of finance to seek personal guarantees from Directors. If he provided those then he will also have lost out.
Flybuddy's best bet is to register his debt with the Official Receiver, who is handling the compulsory liquidation. He almost certainly won't get his money back but he may find out what happened.
Flybuddy paid his money over in 2005
The last accounts filed at Companies House were to 30/11/2005 no accounts have been filed for the years to 30/11/2006 or to 30/11/2007
Shanley became a Director on 28/2/2007
The amount would not have been on a bank statement, but the company's annual report and accounts should have shown FlyBuddy's advance payment (until FlyBuddy had fully drawn down against it), so yes, Shanley as sole director should have known. The balance sheet would show this quite clearly, as it happens.
The balance sheet would not show Flybuddy's money. It would have simply reduced the value of current assets. With correct accounting practice Flybuddy's account should have been in credit, which would have served to reduce the balance of accounts receivable, which is part of current assets.
Shanley could be made personally liable if the company continued to trade while it was insolvent. Having liabilities that exceed your assets does not make you insolvent. The company becomes insolvent when it can no longer meet its debts as they become due. This may be due to no fault of the Directors. For example if a major customer goes bust and cannot pay what he owes. On a more spectacular level Northern Rock isn't insolvent because it continues to be able to pay its debts as they become due. If we taxpayers had not stepped when it was unable to obtain finance then it would be. If it had become insolvent it would have been as a result of a change in the lending policies of players in the wholesale money markets who cut off its finance.
Nothing that I've seen in this thread suggests to me that Shanley trousered any funds. It looks more likely to me that he naively took on a failing business that had no proper accounts and subsequently turned out to be a tin of worms. It is normal when someone takes over a business for some cash to change hands. If Shanley paid money for BCT then he's lost it. It's also normal for a bank or other provider of finance to seek personal guarantees from Directors. If he provided those then he will also have lost out.
Flybuddy's best bet is to register his debt with the Official Receiver, who is handling the compulsory liquidation. He almost certainly won't get his money back but he may find out what happened.
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On 25 Nov 2007 FB posted
That's what I was basing my comment on.
Many thanks for your hard work on my behalf..
I will try something. Not sure what though. I will probably seek legal advice and go to court. I might try what you suggest and make contact with the original BCT owner in the hope that they have some integrity. I would assume that who ever owned/cashed my cheque in May 05 owes me the money or services to that end.
I will try something. Not sure what though. I will probably seek legal advice and go to court. I might try what you suggest and make contact with the original BCT owner in the hope that they have some integrity. I would assume that who ever owned/cashed my cheque in May 05 owes me the money or services to that end.
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Seen this month's Loop? P48. Any questions about where the assets have gone are answered there, they even show the BCT office furniture! As to Shanley/Couzens not having anything to do with BCT before 2007 he shared the main office after the move from G site all the way through! What about the 2k "shareholder" money each put up for hour building in JZ? This money was supposed to be refundable towards your CPL or IMC there should be at least 4K about from that.
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BCT SAGA continued...........
Virtiginous, Flybuddy here! Thanks once again. Even if I get no where it is good to feel others understand my losses.
I understand I made my payment in 2005. I attempted ever since then to utilize the hours paid for and was never given the chance. I contacted BCT over and over again and nothing. I visited BCT in 2006 and discussed my credit with both Captain Mathew Litten and Mr Paul Shanley (if that is indeed his name). I was informed Mr Shanley was the Operations Manager and a Director and that he would look into the accounts and sort out my credit. I continued to contact Mr Shanley for an update and also requested many times to fly and was fobbed off with the usual excuses like the plane is booked every day till next month or sorry we don't have a pilot.
I made further contact in 2007 and Mr Shanley announced to me he now owned BCT and that he remembered my problem and would look into it right away, and asked me to send him a copy of the vat invoice supplied in 2005, which I did the next day. He did nothing. Every time I called he fobbed me off. I called in Nov 2007 and Mr Shanley said he did not know anything about my money problem. He asked me to send a copy of the invoice again, which I did. I waited and heard nothing. I then called and he said he had not looked at it but would check it and get back to me. He did nothing and I called chasing it. He said 'what do you want me to do about it' I suggested a refund or flying hours to the value of what I was owed would be a good start. He replied that it was not his problem. He said that BCT was no more and that his new company TIA had nothing to do with it. I asked when BCT was wound up/ceased trading and he put the phone down. This was the last comm's he had with me (I taped the call!!!!)
FB.
I understand I made my payment in 2005. I attempted ever since then to utilize the hours paid for and was never given the chance. I contacted BCT over and over again and nothing. I visited BCT in 2006 and discussed my credit with both Captain Mathew Litten and Mr Paul Shanley (if that is indeed his name). I was informed Mr Shanley was the Operations Manager and a Director and that he would look into the accounts and sort out my credit. I continued to contact Mr Shanley for an update and also requested many times to fly and was fobbed off with the usual excuses like the plane is booked every day till next month or sorry we don't have a pilot.
I made further contact in 2007 and Mr Shanley announced to me he now owned BCT and that he remembered my problem and would look into it right away, and asked me to send him a copy of the vat invoice supplied in 2005, which I did the next day. He did nothing. Every time I called he fobbed me off. I called in Nov 2007 and Mr Shanley said he did not know anything about my money problem. He asked me to send a copy of the invoice again, which I did. I waited and heard nothing. I then called and he said he had not looked at it but would check it and get back to me. He did nothing and I called chasing it. He said 'what do you want me to do about it' I suggested a refund or flying hours to the value of what I was owed would be a good start. He replied that it was not his problem. He said that BCT was no more and that his new company TIA had nothing to do with it. I asked when BCT was wound up/ceased trading and he put the phone down. This was the last comm's he had with me (I taped the call!!!!)
FB.
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Mike Cross wrote:
Reading FlyBuddy's most recent post rather puts paid to MC's comments. Shanley knew all about the case, and did all he could to avoid dealing with it:
t's therefore most unlikely that Shanley had anything to do with the money disappearing.
I continued to contact Mr Shanley for an update and also requested many times to fly and was fobbed off with the usual excuses like the plane is booked every day till next month or sorry we don't have a pilot.
I made further contact in 2007 and Mr Shanley announced to me he now owned BCT and that he remembered my problem and would look into it right away, and asked me to send him a copy of the vat invoice supplied in 2005, which I did the next day. He did nothing. Every time I called he fobbed me off. I called in Nov 2007 and Mr Shanley said he did not know anything about my money problem. He asked me to send a copy of the invoice again, which I did. I waited and heard nothing.
I made further contact in 2007 and Mr Shanley announced to me he now owned BCT and that he remembered my problem and would look into it right away, and asked me to send him a copy of the vat invoice supplied in 2005, which I did the next day. He did nothing. Every time I called he fobbed me off. I called in Nov 2007 and Mr Shanley said he did not know anything about my money problem. He asked me to send a copy of the invoice again, which I did. I waited and heard nothing.
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Make of my comments what you will. I have no personal knowledge of Shanley or BCT, I've given you facts that might assist you in reaching a decision.
It's a simple matter of law that a Ltd Co (and I've run one for the last 28 years) is a separate legal entity from its owners and officers. The liability of the owners is limited to their shareholding (that's what limited means) and the officers can only be held personally liable in certain limited circumstances.
If you think that
(a) You can prove to a court that Shanley should be made personally liable AND
(b) He has some assets that you can sieze to enforce judgement against him
then get yourself a lawyer and go for it, otherwise I fear you will be throwing good money after bad. I speak as someone who's taken people to Court in the past to try and get payment of what's been due.
It's a simple matter of law that a Ltd Co (and I've run one for the last 28 years) is a separate legal entity from its owners and officers. The liability of the owners is limited to their shareholding (that's what limited means) and the officers can only be held personally liable in certain limited circumstances.
If you think that
(a) You can prove to a court that Shanley should be made personally liable AND
(b) He has some assets that you can sieze to enforce judgement against him
then get yourself a lawyer and go for it, otherwise I fear you will be throwing good money after bad. I speak as someone who's taken people to Court in the past to try and get payment of what's been due.
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I fear you will be throwing good money after bad. I speak as someone who's taken people to Court in the past to try and get payment of what's been due.
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The flybuddy blues
Flybuddy, your description of Pawl Shanley's behaviour struck a strong chord. You can say the same thing to him a hundred times, and it comes as a surprise to him every time. My first post was all about saving your sanity, and I stand by that. If you think you can uncover anything illegal (which seems quite likely, from what I've read here), then go for it and hand it to the police and HMRC. But as for getting money or sense out of Pawl Shanley, forget it.
Just a minor point — did Pawl say he was the sole director of BCT, or did he say that he owned BCT? If the company had transmogrified from a Ltd. Co. into a sole trader, then that changes things substantially.
Just a minor point — did Pawl say he was the sole director of BCT, or did he say that he owned BCT? If the company had transmogrified from a Ltd. Co. into a sole trader, then that changes things substantially.
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First, regarding the pursuit of those who have no funds or insufficient funds to cover their liabilities, there is satisfaction in running them into the ground if you wish to prove a point. I've done it, deprived people of their homes, cars, jobs, etc, over debts, and I believe it's worth doing as it serves a reminder to others who might be foolish in the future. It also means that if you're in business yourself, people take you seriously when you ask for your fees.
Second, most companies in difficulty have finance through banks or investors. Whether sole traders, Ltd Cos, or whatever, the nature of the agreements with their financiers is crucial, and also dictates to a large degree who gets what if the business is wound up (preferential creditors).
Second, most companies in difficulty have finance through banks or investors. Whether sole traders, Ltd Cos, or whatever, the nature of the agreements with their financiers is crucial, and also dictates to a large degree who gets what if the business is wound up (preferential creditors).
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Flying Schools are like Restaurants, a fair proportion go bust on a regular basis. Anyone who puts money up front in the naive belief they are going to save money really deserves what they get. The only reason they offer you a discount is because its cheaper to borrow from the customer than from a bank. When the cash flow ceases the big boys call in their money and the little boys get none.
It was a limited company so the individuals move away to start up elsewhere, and they have! PS is just a scapegoat who generated a perfect smokescreen for the actual directors by virtue of his Walter Mitty character.
Put it down to a bad experience and don't ever put money up front again; even the CAA tell students not to do it. When a well known firm at Manston went bust a few years ago some students were owed up to £35K! And some had only paid it the week before. They lost it all!
It was a limited company so the individuals move away to start up elsewhere, and they have! PS is just a scapegoat who generated a perfect smokescreen for the actual directors by virtue of his Walter Mitty character.
Put it down to a bad experience and don't ever put money up front again; even the CAA tell students not to do it. When a well known firm at Manston went bust a few years ago some students were owed up to £35K! And some had only paid it the week before. They lost it all!
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Hi Airborne artist, yes I know what you mean. I do however wonder if the assets of his new adventure at Kemble would be useful towards paying creditors like me for his debts. One of the BCT airplanes is still parked in all it's glory behind the tower, on the grass and under material covers at Kemble!
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Criminal BCT Operation at Kemble
Yes, I understand.
I already have the wheels in motion. Certain individuals will be arrested shortly for defrauding people like me, evading tax, operating aircraft requiring an AOC (what ever that is) without an AOC and finally including VAT without issuing vat bills. Customs and Revenue are in the process of a major investigation. Watch this space.
I do not think I and others like me will get our money back but we will all relish in the knowledge they will be unable to hurt others again.
Thanks for your support!
M
I already have the wheels in motion. Certain individuals will be arrested shortly for defrauding people like me, evading tax, operating aircraft requiring an AOC (what ever that is) without an AOC and finally including VAT without issuing vat bills. Customs and Revenue are in the process of a major investigation. Watch this space.
I do not think I and others like me will get our money back but we will all relish in the knowledge they will be unable to hurt others again.
Thanks for your support!
M