Pitts training?

[MichaelJP59]

It's a long-held ambition of mine to eventually own and fly a Pitts S-1.

Now as just over 100 hours post-ppl and no taildragger hours, any advice on the best route to get there? I guess I'll need to start on something benign first..

Thanks for any tips,
- Michael

[Weekend Flyer]

Try talking to the folks at Northampton School of Flying at Sibson - they have a Super Cub, a Tiger Moth and a two-seat Pitts. I'm sure that they could give you some helpful advice or even do all of your conversion traing for you.

[eharding]

It's a fair way from where you are, but I'd recommend training with Alan Cassidy at White Waltham.

If the S1 is your ultimate goal, then I'd recommend that the most direct transition will be by doing your whole tail-wheel conversion in the Pitts - the learning curve may seem very steep for the first couple of trips, but it will save you time & money vs. the alternative of flying a cub/decathlon/citabria/whatever to start with. The benefit of doing your Pitts conversion at WW is that if you can land a Pitts smoothly there, you won't have a problem anywhere else....

[MichaelJP59]

WW may be an idea if I could stay for a concentrated week (wx permitting). ISTR there was also somewhere in the USA that specialised in this? The trip would be no problem but I suppose then I would be into training visa complications.

[Justiciar]

I would suggest you contact Paul Ambrose at Popham, who I believe is very highly thought of. His web site is: http://www.special-flight.com/index.html

Otherwise in the US there is Budd Davisson in Phoenix who does ab initio Pitts conversion training: http://www.airbum.com/
I do not think you need a visa for the US as you are not training for a licence or rating but really doing an extended check ride! To be on the safe side do a tail wheel conversion in the UK first.
I would have thought that some initial basic tailwheel training on something less expensive than a Pitts might be a good idea, e.g. a Cub.

[Pitts2112]

I've heard the argument for doing a tailwheel conversion straight in a Pitts but I personally think it is a rare pilot that would be able to do that without costing himself more in terms of time, money and possibly confidence. I think you'd be better off doing some tailwheel hours in something like a Cub or Citabria and really, really get your landing abilities sorted before jumping into a Pitts. Get something like 20 hours or so and get yourself to the point where you can really see the glide slope and anticipate the touchdown point, and be able to land in a variety of conditions. Whilst you could do your conversion in a Pitts, everything happens so much faster and much more extremely, that for the first few trips your head won't be able to keep up with what the airoplane is doing. You'll have that experience with nearly any taildragger, so you might as well have it first in something a lot slower and more benign.

Then any of the places mentioned will be as good as another. Alan Cassidy is known for his aerobatic instruction, and some time spent with him for competition training may be well placed, but I don't know that you'd need to go to him specifically just to convert to a Pitts if he isn't conveniently local.

That's just my .02 worth, but the world expert on landing Pitts is Budd Davison. In fact, that's all he teaches these days. Drop him an e-mail and ask him his advice. He's always been very forthcoming when I've e-mailed him questions.

Good luck and have fun in any case. The Pitts is a great machine and you'll never regret getting to know it!

Pitts2112

[stiknruda]

I know all the names mentioned and in fact have flown with/against all of them. Budd was very good for me and I would recommend him - but it is a long way to go. Cas Smith at Full Sutton is just as competent as the other schools down south and is a lot closer to you.

I had 200 hrs of tailwheel when I went to see Budd. After 6 hours in the circuit he turned me loose. Now, with 600 hours on Pitts' - I think that my earlier benign tailwheel time was certainly of benefit. In short I concur with 2112.

Justiciar, am looking forward to seeing how you fare next month! I'm sure that "he" will be gentle with you but your Cub time will help.

eharding - whilst I don't disagree with you, I'd just like you to recall all the times that you (collectively) have had me look at the underside of XG!

[MichaelJP59]

Thanks for those tips - btw stiknruda, it was the pre-PPL flight in your S2 that started the ambition so you're to blame for the ensuing expenses

I've checked out Budd Davison's website and a week or so in Arizona may be the best way when I have some tailwheel time. I also like the idea of a whole week's Pitts-immersion!

I don't want advanced aero, just need to get to the stage when I can confidently get in a single seat S-1 knowing I can get it (and me) down in one piece reliably in different conditions at a variety of strips.

[Pitts2112]

"just need to get to the stage when I can confidently get in a single seat S-1 knowing I can get it (and me) down in one piece reliably in different conditions at a variety of strips."

Great! When you get to that point, let me know, will you? And tell me how you got there! I've got about 200 hours in Pitts and I'm still not sure of that!

But, seriously, I think you're on the right track. A Pitts is something that grabs your imagination and makes you want to go out and to it right now, but it's also best learned more slowly and in depth. A few hours with an instructor in the front seat of an S-2 are the best prep you can get for landing an S-1 (after some other tailwheel experience, natch)

Pitts2112
PS - Stik's got a lot to answer for in taking people to the dark side of flying...

[n5296s]

Looks like you've got several possible solutions already but if you're willing to make a trip out of it then there's a lot to be said for Attitude Aviation in Livermore, CA. The instruction is excellent, they have a whole bunch of planes (you can fly a Waco when you get fed up with the Pitts), and when you're not flying, you're just a short train ride from San Francsico.

Don't underestimate the Pitts. It is a seriously hard machine to land (but an absolute delight to fly). I can't imagine doing a tailwheel conversion directly to the Pitts. It seemed hard enough in the Citabria (which is an absolute pussy cat compared to the Pitts, now I wonder what all the fuss was about).

At Attitude, although they'll happily give anyone dual in the Pitts, I think they'd expect you to do basic acro training in a Decathlon or Grob before really getting into the Pitts. In fact that's probably your best bet wherever you go. Find someone with a Decathlon, get the hang of acro and do your tailwheel conversion at the same time, and *then* move to the Pitts. Meanwhile, have some fun with dual in the Pitts as well, so you don't forget why you're doing it.

n5296s

[stiknruda]

MJP59

I remember it well - I've only recently shown my face at the Sheffield Aerobatic box again!

I also recall the earlier part of the evening with TT and FM!

Stik

[Russell Gulch]

It is a seriously hard machine to land

I don't agree. It's no more "seriously hard" than most aircraft. If a spam can is so easy, how come so many lose their nosewheels?

[eharding]

Stik - true, but the gent who attempted to re-arrange the aileron on MAXG at Conington last year *didn't* do his tailwheel conversion on a Pitts - I rest my case....

I can only advise from my own experience, which was a tail-wheel conversion in the S2 with AC - from the logbook, 6.4 hours and 10 sorties - before I got into MAXG. Not a lot of point blowing £100+ an hour in a cub perfecting wheelers before getting into an S1.

Haven't we had this debate before on the Proon, or was it on some other forum?

[stiknruda]

Those wheeler things are dead difficult, Ed!

Hope Max G with Min Si is at Lydd early one morning late next week - we have a date and I have a parrot!


Stik

[KZ8]

I have done my BFR with Frank at Northants School of Flying for the past few years in the Pitts and Cub and can recommend him as an excellent instructor for calm learning on the Pitts. Every flight has been a pleasure.

Life with the Davisson's in Pheonix is excellent. Great flying weather, and a very nice Pitts S-2A N8PB. Good food and excellent accomodation too if you stay at the 'B & B' (Budd and Marlene's place). Budd Davisson has been involved with the Pitts since before the prototype Pitts S-2A was built, and there is a real flavour of history when flying with Budd. The experience is a lot more than simply a check-ride in the aircraft. When I was driving him to the airfield one day, Betty Skelton (Frankman) (pilot of Little Skinker in the 1950s) phoned him to ask for Curtiss Pitts's 'phone number to say 'hello'. Budd then called up Curtiss and had a long chat. Having personnally grown up around Pitts and similar machines, I could not believe it! Talk about a front-row seat.

I think you are more likely to enjoy training on the Pitts after gaining some Cub time or equivalent. Everything is the same in the Pitts apart from the worse view, the better handling, the faster speeds and the need for more subtle control inputs. The rest is basic handling skills that can be learned in any tail dragger with a decent instructor.

There's no reason why you couldn't go straight to the Pitts, but it would be an expensive way of starting out with taildraggers. Also, you would not gain the important skills that come with flying the slower taildraggers, which teach you how to really fly.

KZ8

[eharding]

Originally Posted by Stik

Those wheeler things are dead difficult, Ed!

Hope Max G with Min Si is at Lydd early one morning late next week - we have a date and I have a parrot!


Stik

(Shudder) - just make sure he brings the bloody thing back in one piece! - the recent attrition rate at that fixture isn't pretty......just hope Min Si doesn't take his magic talking trousers, and is wearing slightly more nimble Pitts footwear than the sodding twelve-league boots he's been wearing recently.

[eharding]

Originally Posted by KZ8

Also, you would not gain the important skills that come with flying the slower taildraggers, which teach you how to really fly.

Quite true - my experience of the Cub, for example, is that sticking your arms out and flapping can double the power-to-weight ratio......now thats *real* flying..

[KZ8]

Quite true - my experience of the Cub, for example, is that sticking your arms out and flapping can double the power-to-weight ratio......now thats *real* flying..

Sounds fun to me!

[petes1s]

I have about 200 hours Pitts S1 S. I always wanted a Pitts etc

My conversion route was not deliberate, I got into a Pitts S1 only when one became available to buy at the right time/price etc.
I did 5 hours Citabria/Decathlon, then 300 ish hours Wittman Tailwind interspersed with some S-2A time on G-WREN at NSF.

For me, the Wittman Tailwind hours were very useful because it is also a fast landing tail dragger, short and squirelly with powerful/sensitive controls. i.e. I was very used to Pitts speed approaches, recognising excessive sink and keeping it straight and not overcontrolling.

Once in a Pitts S1, all that was left was being able to do it all within the runway boundaries without any forward vision - which is what makes the last bit of the landing (speed, attitude, direction, height) so very interesting.

So I'd say Citabria/Cub etc time is not that useful after about the first 5 hours, but what is useful is something fast and demanding.

e.g. unless you have a Tailwind or similar - bash round the circuit in a hired S2 until the owner lets you go solo, then do quite a bit more solo S2 until you get into your own baby.


Petes1s

[stiknruda]

Hello Pete!

Having not been to RM's recently, is the new one almost there yet?


Stik