Jets
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From: Ireland
"Ok - time out.
Come back and start asking again when you've got a multi-engined CPL/IR and about 400 hours of good quality cross country flying / instrument flying (not pi$$ing about in the local area on a nice day). That might get you in the RHS of a Corporate Jet (it did me)."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very reasonable suggestion on the part of Chilli. To be fair you really are putting 'the cart before the horse'. I imagine you really ought to prove to yourself that you can get that PPL before any further discussion about jets. Good luck getitng it in 35 hours and 2weeks / 2days.
P.S You cannot receive any flight training for a primary (PPL) or advanced rating (IR/Multi) as a non U.S citizen without first receiving a U.S student visa and subsequently a T.S.A autorization to train at the specific shool of your choice. A U.S CFI cannot legally train you without such approvals/visa in place.
Finally, only a U.S CFI can approve the FAA 8710 application for airmen certificate.
Come back and start asking again when you've got a multi-engined CPL/IR and about 400 hours of good quality cross country flying / instrument flying (not pi$$ing about in the local area on a nice day). That might get you in the RHS of a Corporate Jet (it did me)."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Very reasonable suggestion on the part of Chilli. To be fair you really are putting 'the cart before the horse'. I imagine you really ought to prove to yourself that you can get that PPL before any further discussion about jets. Good luck getitng it in 35 hours and 2weeks / 2days.
P.S You cannot receive any flight training for a primary (PPL) or advanced rating (IR/Multi) as a non U.S citizen without first receiving a U.S student visa and subsequently a T.S.A autorization to train at the specific shool of your choice. A U.S CFI cannot legally train you without such approvals/visa in place.
Finally, only a U.S CFI can approve the FAA 8710 application for airmen certificate.
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From: EuroGA.org
"A U.S CFI cannot legally train you without such approvals/visa in place."
This one has been done to death here, but...
A US CFI can train outside the USA. A visa is obviously not required. TSA approval for the instructor would be if he's training for the PPL, ME or IR, not for CPL, CFI, CFII.
However, the FAA accepts all non-FAA flight training towards any FAA license/rating. So you could do all training you need (for the FAA) in the UK, say a G-reg, with a JAA instructor, and this avoids all the TSA stuff because it's nothing to do with the FAA. You just conveniently happen to do some flying which meets the FAA requirements......
Finally, there is nothing wrong with being ambitious!! GA is full of people who tell you this and that can't be done. Most of them are good at propping up the bar, and have never been beyond the local burger run. Also, JAA (EASA) is not the only jurisdiction under the sun; in fact most jets operate under one of the others.
You don't need an ATPL to fly a single pilot jet.
This one has been done to death here, but...
A US CFI can train outside the USA. A visa is obviously not required. TSA approval for the instructor would be if he's training for the PPL, ME or IR, not for CPL, CFI, CFII.
However, the FAA accepts all non-FAA flight training towards any FAA license/rating. So you could do all training you need (for the FAA) in the UK, say a G-reg, with a JAA instructor, and this avoids all the TSA stuff because it's nothing to do with the FAA. You just conveniently happen to do some flying which meets the FAA requirements......
Finally, there is nothing wrong with being ambitious!! GA is full of people who tell you this and that can't be done. Most of them are good at propping up the bar, and have never been beyond the local burger run. Also, JAA (EASA) is not the only jurisdiction under the sun; in fact most jets operate under one of the others.
You don't need an ATPL to fly a single pilot jet.
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by IO540
You don't need an ATPL to fly a single pilot jet.
However, we go back to who really calls the shots here. The minimum insurance requirement for our Citations (550 & 560), in the days when they could operate single pilot, was:
Single pilot waiver
2500 hours TT
Valid ATPL
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 6th May 2007 at 04:26.
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From: Ireland
IO540 "A US CFI can train outside the USA. A visa is obviously not required. TSA approval for the instructor would be if he's training for the PPL, ME or IR, not for CPL, CFI, CFII."
This may well be the case. However he does refer to training in the USA and hence my reply.
I am sure you would agree it is a rather tall order to obtain training in the U.K for an FAA licence by a non FAA instructor and to then have the 8710 signed off by an actual FAA instructor (who I imagine would not be willing to do such a thing having not provided any training).... And all within a short space of time !
Remember that even a U.K based FAA instructor must obtain TSA approval to give ANY training for the initial certificate issue. Ultimately it would be very difficult to get around the TSA requirements for a non resident/non US citizen wishing to gain an initial FAA certificate.
This may well be the case. However he does refer to training in the USA and hence my reply.
I am sure you would agree it is a rather tall order to obtain training in the U.K for an FAA licence by a non FAA instructor and to then have the 8710 signed off by an actual FAA instructor (who I imagine would not be willing to do such a thing having not provided any training).... And all within a short space of time !
Remember that even a U.K based FAA instructor must obtain TSA approval to give ANY training for the initial certificate issue. Ultimately it would be very difficult to get around the TSA requirements for a non resident/non US citizen wishing to gain an initial FAA certificate.
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From: Small dot in the Caribbean
Hmm
I am sure you would agree it is a rather tall order to obtain training in the U.K for an FAA licence by a non FAA instructor and to then have the 8710 signed off by an actual FAA instructor (who I imagine would not be willing to do such a thing having not provided any training).... And all within a short space of time !
More complicated than I thought. Hopefully building my airstrip wont be as bad.
(I don't Wanna Hear It)
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From: Surrey
Originally Posted by Chilli Monster
Originally Posted by IO540
You don't need an ATPL to fly a single pilot jet.
However, we go back to who really calls the shots here. The minimum insurance requirement for our Citations (550 & 560), in the days when they could operate single pilot, was:
Single pilot waiver
2500 hours TT
Valid ATPL
This is not to say he won't have to fly to ATPL standard, learn most of the ATPL subject matter, spend a lot on training, have a rigorous course of additional training to satisfy his insurer - all of which is true. However, a jet type rating IS achievable by a PPL with skill, effort, and money. Buying and operating the Jet of course takes megabucks
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From: EuroGA.org
I am sure you would agree it is a rather tall order to obtain training in the U.K for an FAA licence by a non FAA instructor and to then have the 8710 signed off by an actual FAA instructor (who I imagine would not be willing to do such a thing having not provided any training).... And all within a short space of time !
OK, the way you play this particular case is you obtain the training anywhere in ICAO-land, and then you fly the last 3hrs in the 60 days before the checkride with an FAA CFI/CFII. This FAA instructor needs TSA approval if applicable.
One could just get signed off by an FAA instructor but this is most unlikely since nobody will sign you off as ready for the checkride unless they actually flew with you.
Remember that even a U.K based FAA instructor must obtain TSA approval to give ANY training for the initial certificate issue. Ultimately it would be very difficult to get around the TSA requirements for a non resident/non US citizen wishing to gain an initial FAA certificate.
Not quite true. If the training is clearly towards an ab initio PPL then I agree. If the training is ambiguous and is say a 300nm VFR dual x/c (which is a CPL requirement) then no. Most flights you can do with an instructor are ambiguous in this respect; it is the license/rating which that logbook entry is subsequently used for (perhaps years later) that matters, but nobody will question whether some flight you have in your logbook from 3 years before was done under TSA. A BFR or IPC is also TSA exempt, and you can do any kind of flying within that.
I agree with MM Flynn about the light jets. There will be ways to fly them SP without doing a full ATPL. Not everybody likes this; during a presentation in West Drayton it was claimed that the CAA will ban SP jet ops in UK airspace, and the Germans were going to ban all jet ops without an ATPL. Neither "proposal" is likely to get anywhere as it would be a blatent breach of ICAO, and anyway what about all the SP jets flying already on a CPL/IR? It is also in the insurers' interests to get people flying, but flying safely. A couple of years ago I was offered a CJ1 with reasonable insurance (I think it was a CJ1 - don't particularly keep an eye on jets) if I had 800hrs P1, an IR, and did the TR at some specified establishment.
OK, the way you play this particular case is you obtain the training anywhere in ICAO-land, and then you fly the last 3hrs in the 60 days before the checkride with an FAA CFI/CFII. This FAA instructor needs TSA approval if applicable.
One could just get signed off by an FAA instructor but this is most unlikely since nobody will sign you off as ready for the checkride unless they actually flew with you.
Remember that even a U.K based FAA instructor must obtain TSA approval to give ANY training for the initial certificate issue. Ultimately it would be very difficult to get around the TSA requirements for a non resident/non US citizen wishing to gain an initial FAA certificate.
Not quite true. If the training is clearly towards an ab initio PPL then I agree. If the training is ambiguous and is say a 300nm VFR dual x/c (which is a CPL requirement) then no. Most flights you can do with an instructor are ambiguous in this respect; it is the license/rating which that logbook entry is subsequently used for (perhaps years later) that matters, but nobody will question whether some flight you have in your logbook from 3 years before was done under TSA. A BFR or IPC is also TSA exempt, and you can do any kind of flying within that.
I agree with MM Flynn about the light jets. There will be ways to fly them SP without doing a full ATPL. Not everybody likes this; during a presentation in West Drayton it was claimed that the CAA will ban SP jet ops in UK airspace, and the Germans were going to ban all jet ops without an ATPL. Neither "proposal" is likely to get anywhere as it would be a blatent breach of ICAO, and anyway what about all the SP jets flying already on a CPL/IR? It is also in the insurers' interests to get people flying, but flying safely. A couple of years ago I was offered a CJ1 with reasonable insurance (I think it was a CJ1 - don't particularly keep an eye on jets) if I had 800hrs P1, an IR, and did the TR at some specified establishment.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Dublin
It would be, but I'm not in the UK, I don't know of any local instructors, but there is this guy I know who is planning on becoming a flight instructor, training in the USA, possible for him to be a FAA Instructor without having residency in the U.S., as that would make things different (Ability to train locally). But if he isn't able to be an FAA instructor then he would have to have an 8710 signed and whatnot. Correct?
LOTS of people do this EVERY WEEK, go to the USA, do their three weeks training and come back with a PPL. Why so much effort into finding a way to avoid this?
If you can really afford to operate your own private jet (even a share is going to costs lots) then you can easily affort to sort out a PPL.
dp
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From: Anywhere
Originally Posted by mm_flynn
he in the fixed wing world is going to go from zero to type rated pilot and not going to spend anything like your suggested $5 million (my 50k estimate with two more zeros
I don't think I ever mentioned, however, that you can't fly a jet on a PPL - there's no reason why you can't and many people do. However, if nano wants someone else to pay for him to do it then the route I described is how he's going to have to do it.
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From: EuroGA.org
If anybody wants this, I have a detailed step by step guide to the TSA+Visa process - email me. Well checked out in 2006 and used by many, as far as I can tell.
The TSA process is easy (a website session, $130, plus a trip to Flight Safety at Farnborough to get fingerprints) but there are a few gotchas.
The Visa process is just a day wasted hanging around at the US Embassy, poking your finger into fingerprint readers on each desk and showing your mortgage statements to the officer who wants to be sure you won't end up on their social security.
Nowadays, the TSA and Visa people reportedly cross-check so if you need (and obtain) TSA you will also have to get a Visa, and this is regardless of whether US law actually requires the Visa.
The TSA process is easy (a website session, $130, plus a trip to Flight Safety at Farnborough to get fingerprints) but there are a few gotchas.
The Visa process is just a day wasted hanging around at the US Embassy, poking your finger into fingerprint readers on each desk and showing your mortgage statements to the officer who wants to be sure you won't end up on their social security.
Nowadays, the TSA and Visa people reportedly cross-check so if you need (and obtain) TSA you will also have to get a Visa, and this is regardless of whether US law actually requires the Visa.
Thread Starter
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From: Small dot in the Caribbean
If you put as much effort into getting the necessary Visa's and TSA clearance as you are putting into trying to find ways around getting them, you'd have them long ago
I know that Jet aircraft are expensive, to buy and to operate but that's not the whole motive for getting my PPL so all my questions are being asked as if I own one already.
Also, for the visa, if it would be paid via financing, what do you show for the financial statements?
My airstrip is beginning to look easier as the posts go by. (Still Don't Want To Hear It, Part Of My Dream)
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From: Ireland
"Also, for the visa, if it would be paid via financing, what do you show for the financial statements?"
Not sure what you mean here.. Are you are talking about financing the cost of your training ? If so then the money should be in your bank account from whatever finance source you use prior to going for your visa. The officer will need to see that you have finds to cover your stay i the USA for the duration of your training. Maybe I am not understanding your question correctly as I imagine it is unlikely you would need to finance the cost of your PPL based on your previous posts.
Not sure what you mean here.. Are you are talking about financing the cost of your training ? If so then the money should be in your bank account from whatever finance source you use prior to going for your visa. The officer will need to see that you have finds to cover your stay i the USA for the duration of your training. Maybe I am not understanding your question correctly as I imagine it is unlikely you would need to finance the cost of your PPL based on your previous posts.
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From: EuroGA.org
The visa officer will want to see a bank statement showing a good few thousand quid, and some evidence of ties to the UK e.g. a mortgage statement.
I didn't have a mortgage statement on my house (no mortgage) but had one on my ex wife's house (because I pay her mortgage) and the officer questioned why the address etc was different to mine. Fortunately the explanation was accepted.
Bring the lot, credit card statements, etc.
I didn't have a mortgage statement on my house (no mortgage) but had one on my ex wife's house (because I pay her mortgage) and the officer questioned why the address etc was different to mine. Fortunately the explanation was accepted.
Bring the lot, credit card statements, etc.
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From: Dublin
I plan on going there but it's just there can be benefits (closer to home,meaning no need to pay for flights, maybe able to borrow aircraft for free etc.)
Also, for the visa, if it would be paid via financing, what do you show for the financial statements?
As for the cost of the jet, I'm a billionaire man! ( At least 'till I wake up in the morning). On a serious note though, I'll get one, whether owned or partial with a family member.
dp
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From: Small dot in the Caribbean
Hmm
F900EX
Sorry, I misread what IO540 posed earlier.
Most of the questions about avoiding going through the U.S. just plain curiosity. I WILL go to the U.S. to train. Forget about the jet part, another dream for another decade, I'm done my questionning concerning jets. Didn't mention my age did I? Maybe that should say under wraps . Cost of PPL is not a problem, may go up to CPL, depends on how life turns. Too young for my PPL, i'll have it Summer 2008.
Sorry, I misread what IO540 posed earlier.
Something doesn't add up here. If you can buy even a share in a Jet, why are you having to finance the trivial cost of a visa, and why trying so hard to avoid the relatively trival cost of a PPL?
. Cost of PPL is not a problem, may go up to CPL, depends on how life turns. Too young for my PPL, i'll have it Summer 2008.
Last edited by nano404; 6th May 2007 at 23:48.
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From: EuroGA.org
Ever heard of the saying "learn to walk before you run"?
a favourite of instructors, most of whom have never been past the crease in their chart.
Don't knock somebody who wants to learn to fly for a reason - just because nearly all PPL students don't doesn't make this a bad thing. This man is likely to be hanging in there long after the other 99% have packed it up.
a favourite of instructors, most of whom have never been past the crease in their chart.
Don't knock somebody who wants to learn to fly for a reason - just because nearly all PPL students don't doesn't make this a bad thing. This man is likely to be hanging in there long after the other 99% have packed it up.
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From: Here and there. Here at the moment but soon I'll be there.
a favourite of instructors, most of whom have never been past the crease in their chart.
Thread Starter
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From: Small dot in the Caribbean
Ever heard of the saying "learn to walk before you run"?
As in a vacation, theres three parts, getting to the destination, staying there and returning home. Of course you have to get there before you leave there, but you don't plan your arrival and not plan your stay and departure. Nor do you plan your arrival and stay, then plan your departure sometime after you arrive. Planning all ahead allows possible bumps and difficulties in your journey to be acknowledged and prepared for. If you arrive without booking a hotel, and find out they're all booked, rather find that out at home than in a foreign land. And if you made a budget for the trip, planned on renting a compact car when you arrived but find them rented out, then you would have to go over your budget for a larger car. Could've been avoided by planning, go to a different car rental company, change your budget at home etc. Planning saves money and time.