Doncaster Sheffield Airspace Grab
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When controller workload gets too high, they don't put on more controllers, they start blocking access. True, this means more safety as there are fewer aircraft in their airspace - we are all around the edges of their zone trying to avoid each other.
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I may be remembering this incorrectly.........is this the airport that welcomed GA with open arms prior to opening to commercial traffic, as it needed GA to help train up it's ATC'ers and sort out local procedures before the heavies moved in?
I seem to remember a lot of complaints about forcing out GA by high landing fees and impossible security policies shortly after it opening.
I may be remembering this incorrectly, or maybe someone's unreasonable complaint about fees/security may be just sticking in my memory.
But if I am remembering that correctly, would you trust anything they said about it not being a hindrance to GA traffic?
Scotter boy, are you flying IFR when doing these transits, or are you trying to transit low level VFR?
dp
I seem to remember a lot of complaints about forcing out GA by high landing fees and impossible security policies shortly after it opening.
I may be remembering this incorrectly, or maybe someone's unreasonable complaint about fees/security may be just sticking in my memory.
But if I am remembering that correctly, would you trust anything they said about it not being a hindrance to GA traffic?
Scotter boy, are you flying IFR when doing these transits, or are you trying to transit low level VFR?
dp
bose-x, new boys to Doncaster we may be, but I hope that our record of not denying clearances to the little guys through Liverpool airspace speaks for itself.
dublinpilot - I say nothing about the airport's policy for landing fees, security procedures, not allowing first solos etc, but rest assured there will be no pressure from the airport about not allowing transits through controlled airspace. That's not how ATC works!
dublinpilot - I say nothing about the airport's policy for landing fees, security procedures, not allowing first solos etc, but rest assured there will be no pressure from the airport about not allowing transits through controlled airspace. That's not how ATC works!
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Perhaps I am missing something but AFAIK:
More controlled airspace = more controller workload = more controllers = more safety.
More controlled airspace = more controller workload = more controllers = more safety.
I would far rather Finningley be used as a regional airport (with late opening hours ATC and an ILS) than that beautiful long runway have weeds grow through it and be allowed to decay
Let's look at this logically. How big a country do we live in? Much as the "save the runway" sentiment is lovely this one we could really have done without. There are better places the money could have been spent than right in the middle of 3 Airports already operating CAT , on the main military north south route, on the doorsteps of 4 GA airfields whose activities will be severely curtailed.
Bose - It's a New Year, the ban's cancelled mate
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Dublinpilot,
Most of my crossings are low level VFR however I was permitted an IFR transit last week without having previously filed a flight plan.
Chilli,
Just realised you are an ATCO!
- good thing I was polite about you guys!
Sad to hear that the same flawed employment logic pervades NATS as pervades the NHS (one of my employers) - i:e flog them til they drop.
Ho Hum,
SB
Most of my crossings are low level VFR however I was permitted an IFR transit last week without having previously filed a flight plan.
Chilli,
Just realised you are an ATCO!
- good thing I was polite about you guys!Sad to hear that the same flawed employment logic pervades NATS as pervades the NHS (one of my employers) - i:e flog them til they drop.
Ho Hum,
SB
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I fly out of Leeds most of the time and when flying south or south east, its a pain in the ass anyway making sure you dont climb into the vast amounts of class A airspace. Adding this Class D control zone and area into the equation is just going to make everyone's life much harder for a GA pilot.
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I fly out of Leeds most of the time and when flying south or south east, its a pain in the ass anyway making sure you dont climb into the vast amounts of class A airspace. Adding this Class D control zone and area into the equation is just going to make everyone's life much harder for a GA pilot.
It will take time for all of us to become familiar with the new airspace and the procedures but we'll soon become familiar with it all.
Just wait for the airspace to established and everything settle down and then see what you think.
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From the instructors' point of view, I think that the class D airspace will be quite advantageous...so too from the students' viewpoint. Years ago, I worked out of Cumbernauld and penetrations of Glasgow and Edinburgh zones were commonplace...and easy.
Like SB, I can't recall when I was last refused entry to controlled airspace. I'm confident that, once the dust settles, an amicable accommodation will be reached. And, of course, controlled airspace doesn't offer protection solely to CAT, but our spam cans, too.
Yes, there will be an increased pilot' workload during zone transit/penetration, but I predict that a "standard form" will be adopted which will provide a fuss-free service for all the local pilots.
Like SB, I can't recall when I was last refused entry to controlled airspace. I'm confident that, once the dust settles, an amicable accommodation will be reached. And, of course, controlled airspace doesn't offer protection solely to CAT, but our spam cans, too.
Yes, there will be an increased pilot' workload during zone transit/penetration, but I predict that a "standard form" will be adopted which will provide a fuss-free service for all the local pilots.
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Will ATC be able and willing to let gliders fly through the proposed Class D? I estimate that each year there are several thousand glider flights which currently transit that area, and from the map I can't see any easy way around.
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Could someone confirm or deny this...
I was speaking with an ATCO who told me that on landing the on-board data is uploaded to airline company computers and, should separation not be maintained, even if the aircraft are under ATCO control, the pilot will need to account for failure to keep separation.
So part of the reason for denial of service, as I have experienced, might well be to ensure that commercial pilots don't get a rollocking,
I was speaking with an ATCO who told me that on landing the on-board data is uploaded to airline company computers and, should separation not be maintained, even if the aircraft are under ATCO control, the pilot will need to account for failure to keep separation.
So part of the reason for denial of service, as I have experienced, might well be to ensure that commercial pilots don't get a rollocking,
Please excuse any ignorance here, but didn't Finningley used to have a MATZ? Was it such a pain to deal with then, and will the DSA proposals be worse than the military days?
r
r
But the kit taking the data doesn't (or it certainly didn't in my previous airline [320/321/757/767]) measure separation as it is an external value - only a lot of things like bank angle, IAS, pitch angle, groundspeed, engine parameters, rad alt values, glide slope deviation etc etc. If the PF responds to a TCAS Resolution Advisory (RA), then obviously the internal parameters will show that, but very unlikely that
...the pilot will need to account for failure to keep separation...
Methinks said ATCer is misinformed.
.
The pilot would possibly need to account for loss of separation if he/she does a visual approach "with number one in sight" and gets too close and thus has to go around due to runway occupancy, but in most good airlines there should be a no blame go around culture i.e.
.
Chief Pilot "Why did you go around"
Captain "I had to, cocked up the visual"
Chief Pilot "OK, don't cock up the visual again, but if you need to go-around, do it""
Last edited by Floppy Link; 22nd Jan 2007 at 21:11. Reason: ...remembered the TCAS scenario
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Midland
Finningley MATZ was smaller than the proposed class 'D', plus it was normally only Mon-Fri 8 - 5 instead of H24. As most GA operates at weekends now you see where the concern comes in.
IO
ATC responsible for terrain separation whilst vectoring, hence you won't be vectored below MSA. As for aircraft separation - airspace type / service type / flight rules apply (though over control in class 'D' is not unheard of).
Finningley MATZ was smaller than the proposed class 'D', plus it was normally only Mon-Fri 8 - 5 instead of H24. As most GA operates at weekends now you see where the concern comes in.
IO
ATC responsible for terrain separation whilst vectoring, hence you won't be vectored below MSA. As for aircraft separation - airspace type / service type / flight rules apply (though over control in class 'D' is not unheard of).
