Crossing the English Channel in a SEP
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Crossing the English Channel in a SEP
Having always been told by instructors to fly the shortest crossing distance (which makes a great deal of sense) am I being totally reckless in flying Beachy Head - Dieppe direct?
I see there is a VFR route south of the Isle of Wight thats about the same distance but with higher unrestricted airspace but it's even further off my intended course.
Views on routes / single engine reliability & ditching a low wing aircraft would be much appreciated.
I see there is a VFR route south of the Isle of Wight thats about the same distance but with higher unrestricted airspace but it's even further off my intended course.
Views on routes / single engine reliability & ditching a low wing aircraft would be much appreciated.
Last edited by robinpiper; 12th Nov 2006 at 20:11. Reason: Spelling
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This is simple, and nothing you can't work out for yourself.
If your plane is well-maintained, flown regularly, and has no discernible fault or problem that you can think of ;
If you are carrying (and wearing, where appropriate) the requisite safety equipement (life jackets, raft, survival gear, ELTs etc etc) ;
If you have planned your route carefully and taken into account the weather, your experience (can you fly without a horizon?), fuel, diversion planning etc ;
THEN : you have done all you can to make your trip in a light single as safe as possible.
Now : do you fancy the risk or not ? There's no point asking on this forum or anywhere else ! No-one knows your character better than you. It may sound harsh, but it *really* does come down to your take on risk and reward ...
FF
If your plane is well-maintained, flown regularly, and has no discernible fault or problem that you can think of ;
If you are carrying (and wearing, where appropriate) the requisite safety equipement (life jackets, raft, survival gear, ELTs etc etc) ;
If you have planned your route carefully and taken into account the weather, your experience (can you fly without a horizon?), fuel, diversion planning etc ;
THEN : you have done all you can to make your trip in a light single as safe as possible.
Now : do you fancy the risk or not ? There's no point asking on this forum or anywhere else ! No-one knows your character better than you. It may sound harsh, but it *really* does come down to your take on risk and reward ...
FF
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A very sound summary from FF.
The only thing I would add is given any route at least consider the options.
Depending where you are orginally coming from, Newhaven Dieppe is around 76 stat miles, where as, Lyd Boulogne Dieppe is around 86 stat miles. The first route has a large sector out of glide range of land, the second may have less than 5 or 10 minutes.
Personally I have never understood why people go SFD L2K when in the same way Lyd L2K is only a few minutes longer, however if going to the CI the trade off of time over the sea against distance is not sufficiently worth while, so go direct.
The only thing I would add is given any route at least consider the options.
Depending where you are orginally coming from, Newhaven Dieppe is around 76 stat miles, where as, Lyd Boulogne Dieppe is around 86 stat miles. The first route has a large sector out of glide range of land, the second may have less than 5 or 10 minutes.
Personally I have never understood why people go SFD L2K when in the same way Lyd L2K is only a few minutes longer, however if going to the CI the trade off of time over the sea against distance is not sufficiently worth while, so go direct.
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A very sound summary from FF.
The only thing I would add is given any route at least consider the options.
Depending where you are orginally coming from, Newhaven Dieppe is around 76 stat miles, where as, Lyd Boulogne Dieppe is around 86 stat miles. The first route has a large sector out of glide range of land, the second may have less than 5 or 10 minutes.
Personally I have never understood why people go SFD L2K when in the same way Lyd L2K is only a few minutes longer, however if going to the CI the trade off of time over the sea against distance is not sufficiently worth while, so go direct.
The only thing I would add is given any route at least consider the options.
Depending where you are orginally coming from, Newhaven Dieppe is around 76 stat miles, where as, Lyd Boulogne Dieppe is around 86 stat miles. The first route has a large sector out of glide range of land, the second may have less than 5 or 10 minutes.
Personally I have never understood why people go SFD L2K when in the same way Lyd L2K is only a few minutes longer, however if going to the CI the trade off of time over the sea against distance is not sufficiently worth while, so go direct.
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"Er well because SFD L2K is only a few minutes longer"
Exactly .. .. ..
.. .. .. but I wonder how many would have thought there was so little difference in the total distance between sfd dieppe and lyd, L2K, dieppe!
"if the donk is going to quit it will go at the most inconvenient moment."
True, but not everyone believes in Murphy I suppose.
The poster also asked about ditching.
Following a ditching the evidence is most survive the impact, but die in the water. Dont kid yourself you will survive for very little time in the channel without a raft.
Exactly .. .. ..
.. .. .. but I wonder how many would have thought there was so little difference in the total distance between sfd dieppe and lyd, L2K, dieppe!
"if the donk is going to quit it will go at the most inconvenient moment."
True, but not everyone believes in Murphy I suppose.
The poster also asked about ditching.
Following a ditching the evidence is most survive the impact, but die in the water. Dont kid yourself you will survive for very little time in the channel without a raft.
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Thanks for your replies.
Can I also just ask your views on this, say halfway across the engine started running roughly but did not quit totally, I climbed to get the best glide distance but in doing so busted some class A airspace.
How do you think the CAA would view this infringement?
Would London Information be the best person to make a PAN call to?
Can I also just ask your views on this, say halfway across the engine started running roughly but did not quit totally, I climbed to get the best glide distance but in doing so busted some class A airspace.
How do you think the CAA would view this infringement?
Would London Information be the best person to make a PAN call to?
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How do you think the CAA would view this infringement?
Would London Information be the best person to make a PAN call to?
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One further point.
I'd consider a rough running engine in the middle of the channel to be a mayday.
Pan=emergency but you don't require outside assistance
Mayday=emergency that requires help.
I'd want S&R deployed immediately, and hopefully get to me before the engine quit altogether. So that would be a mayday.
dp
I'd consider a rough running engine in the middle of the channel to be a mayday.
Pan=emergency but you don't require outside assistance
Mayday=emergency that requires help.
I'd want S&R deployed immediately, and hopefully get to me before the engine quit altogether. So that would be a mayday.
dp
Well I clocked Dover - Cap Griz Nez at 8 minutes, which is 4 minutes each way. A quick calculation should give you your minimum height which will allow you to glide down from any point (bearing in mind that up on top of the White Cliffs at Dover is a couple of hundred feet amsl). And there you go. No busting controlled airspace; no splash.
Always seems neat to be able to see France when overhead Canterbury.
Always seems neat to be able to see France when overhead Canterbury.
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Plenty of good advice here, but none quite as valuable as the above nugget from FF.
Please make sure you have a decent level of post qualification experience before embarking on this trip (sorry, but the language of your post suggests you might not). Just because you are entitled to do something under the terms of your rating, does not mean you should launch straight into it.
I had four hours flying off the AI with an FI in the week before my first water crossing. I was grateful for every second of it as that horizon disappeared, the sky merged with the water and the view ahead was of bugger all use in maintaning straight and level flight.
The Wombat
Please make sure you have a decent level of post qualification experience before embarking on this trip (sorry, but the language of your post suggests you might not). Just because you are entitled to do something under the terms of your rating, does not mean you should launch straight into it.
I had four hours flying off the AI with an FI in the week before my first water crossing. I was grateful for every second of it as that horizon disappeared, the sky merged with the water and the view ahead was of bugger all use in maintaning straight and level flight.
The Wombat
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Plenty of good advice here, but none quite as valuable as the above nugget from FF.
Please make sure you have a decent level of post qualification experience before embarking on this trip (sorry, but the language of your post suggests you might not). Just because you are entitled to do something under the terms of your rating, does not mean you should launch straight into it.
I had four hours flying off the AI with an FI in the week before my first water crossing. I was grateful for every second of it as that horizon disappeared, the sky merged with the water and the view ahead was of bugger all use in maintaning straight and level flight.
The Wombat
Please make sure you have a decent level of post qualification experience before embarking on this trip (sorry, but the language of your post suggests you might not). Just because you are entitled to do something under the terms of your rating, does not mean you should launch straight into it.
I had four hours flying off the AI with an FI in the week before my first water crossing. I was grateful for every second of it as that horizon disappeared, the sky merged with the water and the view ahead was of bugger all use in maintaning straight and level flight.
The Wombat
Blimey you will be insisting on a "cross channel checkout" next.......
There is nothing difficult about flying accross the channel, I really fail to understand why people make such an issue of it.
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There is nothing difficult about flying accross the channel, I really fail to understand why people make such an issue of it.
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That is a pretty cavalier response x boy.
How do you square your assertion that "There is nothing difficult about flying accross the channel" with the potential loss of an external horizon. This is the issue I highlighted. I suggest it is real for the very reason that I don't know what Robinpiper's experience is. Maybe you do know Robinpiper and are happy with his / her ability to fly IMC?
It is not only common sense, but good piloting to be current on flying off the AI before crossing water.
You really should reserve you bar-room banter for those people who know better and not spew it on people who might take what you are saying as legit.
The Wombat
How do you square your assertion that "There is nothing difficult about flying accross the channel" with the potential loss of an external horizon. This is the issue I highlighted. I suggest it is real for the very reason that I don't know what Robinpiper's experience is. Maybe you do know Robinpiper and are happy with his / her ability to fly IMC?
It is not only common sense, but good piloting to be current on flying off the AI before crossing water.
You really should reserve you bar-room banter for those people who know better and not spew it on people who might take what you are saying as legit.
The Wombat
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There is far to much of people trying to project there own fears onto others rather than giving straight advice. Crossing the channel is no different any other flight. Plan properly, prepare and go. Wear life jackets, carry an EPIRB and go. The EPIRB is probably the best bit of kit you will buy, the mcmurdo fast find in the channel is likely to get you out of the water in under 30mins, hypothermic but alive. If it makes you feel better take a life raft as well.
Oh and suggesting that people learn to fly off the AI without proper instrument training (which is a damn sight more than a couple of hours) is even more "bar room cavalier". If the conditions require flight or possability of flight on the AI then the conditions are not VMC and the flight should not be undertaken by a basic PPL. So go "spew" your crap elsewhere.
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Channel crossing
I've done it dozens of times in several different aircraft.
Being based at Plymouth I just take the direct route and it is about 30 mins to Guernsey, 40 to Jersey in my Mooney.
Decisions as to how long an overwater leg to take depend upon characteristics of pilot and aircraft and also prevailing weather.
For a newbie PPL it really feels like a big deal and gives a tremendous sense of achievement at having made it over the water without having the hassle of ferries etc...
Good luck with your flight.
The aircraft does not know when it is over water.
SB
Being based at Plymouth I just take the direct route and it is about 30 mins to Guernsey, 40 to Jersey in my Mooney.
Decisions as to how long an overwater leg to take depend upon characteristics of pilot and aircraft and also prevailing weather.
For a newbie PPL it really feels like a big deal and gives a tremendous sense of achievement at having made it over the water without having the hassle of ferries etc...
Good luck with your flight.
The aircraft does not know when it is over water.
SB
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Bose -
I essentially agree with your last post.
However, there are occasions when whilst conditions are VMC over the land, by the time the aircraft is mid channel and has climbed high because the pilot thought this was a good idea, he is struggling to fly visually. Kid yourself not, that is often the situation so expect it and brush up on those basic instrument skills if in any doubt.
After a good day out, and in spite of the forecast, perhaps conditions are a little worse on the way back. Perhaps a recipe for unsettling some new pilots.
For that reason also, if Robinpiper is going to France for the first time, a shorter crossing may have some advantages. Firstly, if you get uncomfortable the coast is within sight before you know it and secondly there is far less time to think you are hearing the engine start to run rough.
As always though on this sort of topic, horses for courses, if you are happy with the longer crossing just get on with it.
Robin - is it your first crossing, and where are you starting from? Also let us know how you found it please - some feedback is always interesting on these threads.
I essentially agree with your last post.
However, there are occasions when whilst conditions are VMC over the land, by the time the aircraft is mid channel and has climbed high because the pilot thought this was a good idea, he is struggling to fly visually. Kid yourself not, that is often the situation so expect it and brush up on those basic instrument skills if in any doubt.
After a good day out, and in spite of the forecast, perhaps conditions are a little worse on the way back. Perhaps a recipe for unsettling some new pilots.
For that reason also, if Robinpiper is going to France for the first time, a shorter crossing may have some advantages. Firstly, if you get uncomfortable the coast is within sight before you know it and secondly there is far less time to think you are hearing the engine start to run rough.
As always though on this sort of topic, horses for courses, if you are happy with the longer crossing just get on with it.
Robin - is it your first crossing, and where are you starting from? Also let us know how you found it please - some feedback is always interesting on these threads.
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So sensitive x boy to someone pointing out the obvious. And the best you can do is attack my suggestion that it is prudent to be practiced in flying off the AI before crossing water.
If you want to be a serious contributor on the forum, you really need to consider your audience when making the kind of stupid sweeping statements which has triggered my ire.
The hole just gets bigger for you. Grow up.
The Wombat
If you want to be a serious contributor on the forum, you really need to consider your audience when making the kind of stupid sweeping statements which has triggered my ire.
The hole just gets bigger for you. Grow up.
The Wombat
Last edited by wombat13; 13th Nov 2006 at 12:29.
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May I just point out again that Lndon FIR, fine fellows that they are HAVE NO RADAR and if you do have to ditch they will know you are going to get wet, and that's about it. Bournemouth, Southampton, Manston Wattisham, Norwich, Anglia Radar are all radar units who will be able to plot your position down to the point you go below cover & can vector other units on to you. Cover from Manston, Wattisham, Anglia & Norwich overlaps with Continental radar cover so you can be tracked all the way
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Wombat,
I think you should look inwards a bit, as if you fly of the handle after just reading a post here, then what do you react like when in a high workload situation(2hrs IMC and then need to divert for some reason?)I think maturity(or growing up as you put it) would be needed to keep a level head and respond in a well calculated way! Also if you take a newby up and spend a good few hours flying on the AI, make sure you remember to tell him about fuel, radio monitoring carb ice, t's and p's and altitude!(Or FREDA for short) What i am saying is a normal instument scan, the basic "T", where you scan from the AI to DI,VSI,ASI etc. Also i thought the hours of straight and level during the PPL syslabus would have given plenty of practice of that particular skill. Add on the instrument appreciation at the end of the sylabus and off you go. I have flown on days where the horizon is no where to be seen doing a X/C over land! If your out there IO540, one advantage of learning DR might possibly be keeping straight and level on heading for long(ish) periods without an auto pilot? The only other advice i would offer to the original poster is, if the donk does quit mid channel, see if you can find a smaller type of boat to land next to(EG:-less than 200' long) as the bigger boats wouldnt be able to stop in time to pick you up. Other than that, just go and enjoy yourself and dont indulge in the local brew if your on a day trip
I think you should look inwards a bit, as if you fly of the handle after just reading a post here, then what do you react like when in a high workload situation(2hrs IMC and then need to divert for some reason?)I think maturity(or growing up as you put it) would be needed to keep a level head and respond in a well calculated way! Also if you take a newby up and spend a good few hours flying on the AI, make sure you remember to tell him about fuel, radio monitoring carb ice, t's and p's and altitude!(Or FREDA for short) What i am saying is a normal instument scan, the basic "T", where you scan from the AI to DI,VSI,ASI etc. Also i thought the hours of straight and level during the PPL syslabus would have given plenty of practice of that particular skill. Add on the instrument appreciation at the end of the sylabus and off you go. I have flown on days where the horizon is no where to be seen doing a X/C over land! If your out there IO540, one advantage of learning DR might possibly be keeping straight and level on heading for long(ish) periods without an auto pilot? The only other advice i would offer to the original poster is, if the donk does quit mid channel, see if you can find a smaller type of boat to land next to(EG:-less than 200' long) as the bigger boats wouldnt be able to stop in time to pick you up. Other than that, just go and enjoy yourself and dont indulge in the local brew if your on a day trip
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So sensitive x boy to someone pointing out the obvious. And the best you can do is attack my suggestion that it is prudent to be practiced in flying off the AI before crossing water.
If you want to be a serious contributor on the forum, you really need to consider your audience when making the kind of stupid sweeping statements which has triggered my ire.
The hole just gets bigger for you. Grow up.
The Wombat
If you want to be a serious contributor on the forum, you really need to consider your audience when making the kind of stupid sweeping statements which has triggered my ire.
The hole just gets bigger for you. Grow up.
The Wombat
Your suggestion that a basic PPL having a couple of hours AI practice before hacking out into IMC like conditions is the one that strikes me as less than prudent. I am perfectly comfortable with my ability to contribute to the forums, perhaps you should take a look at your own.........
For a first crossing then it would be prudent to pick a good day not a marginal day, but then the same goes for flying across land as well. Our flying improves by practice and building experiance. Crossing water really is a no brainer and too much is made of making it sound difficult. I would ccetainly not reccomend a basic PPL holder having a couple of hours instrument practice and heading out. A basic PPL is taught enough about flying on the clocks to hopefully survive a 180 turn and get the hell out of there. An IMC gives you the ability to make a sustained flight in the marginal conditions described.
I agree completely with you fuji, the point being in that situation the pilot should be aborting the flight not carrying on having had the suggested couple of hours of AI flight.....