Crossing the English Channel in a SEP
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The problem I have with any bits of floating kit is it can not be reallied apon to be in the right place at the right time. Or even if its tied down you can use it when required. So if its not on you before you takeoff you might as well not have it at all. Which is why all the offshore suits now have to be worn zipped up and each have a personal beacon attached. And you even have to have the hoods up for takeoff and landing.
And the fact that you have the landyard attached so to speak. Are you really sure you want the possibility of the thing inflating before you get out? And I know the attachment lanyard doesn't fire it. It doesn't need someone to pull the thing. The strap could catch and pull on anything with the g-forces involved with a ditching it could easily deploy inside.
Most of the people debating the pro's and cons of life rafts haven't had the experence of actually using one. I did years ago the old RGIT course which part of which is them trying to make you sick taking you out of Aberdeen harbour and fannying about in rafts.
Even in the most modest of swells the north sea can throw at you and water temps of 11degs which is tropical for the east coast. Most people failed miserably to get into a 20 man life raft which is stable in comparsion to the ones for planes and have alot more foot holds and other aids to aid boarding. On our raft it was only because myself and another diver managed to lever ourselves onboard then bounced recovered the others that anyone got on board. And that was in noddy suits with out the shock of your bollocks getting emersed in 11 degree water. Which we all know has the the ability to stop you breathing never mind anything else.
Now the whole industry has been made to realise that these life rafts are next to useless and they all have to install the escape boats.
With zero training, no noddy suit the yellow brick wins hands down because at least you can use it as a chock when you land at the other end.
And the fact that you have the landyard attached so to speak. Are you really sure you want the possibility of the thing inflating before you get out? And I know the attachment lanyard doesn't fire it. It doesn't need someone to pull the thing. The strap could catch and pull on anything with the g-forces involved with a ditching it could easily deploy inside.
Most of the people debating the pro's and cons of life rafts haven't had the experence of actually using one. I did years ago the old RGIT course which part of which is them trying to make you sick taking you out of Aberdeen harbour and fannying about in rafts.
Even in the most modest of swells the north sea can throw at you and water temps of 11degs which is tropical for the east coast. Most people failed miserably to get into a 20 man life raft which is stable in comparsion to the ones for planes and have alot more foot holds and other aids to aid boarding. On our raft it was only because myself and another diver managed to lever ourselves onboard then bounced recovered the others that anyone got on board. And that was in noddy suits with out the shock of your bollocks getting emersed in 11 degree water. Which we all know has the the ability to stop you breathing never mind anything else.
Now the whole industry has been made to realise that these life rafts are next to useless and they all have to install the escape boats.
With zero training, no noddy suit the yellow brick wins hands down because at least you can use it as a chock when you land at the other end.
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"Most people failed miserably to get into a 20 man life raft which is stable in comparsion to the ones for planes and have alot more foot holds and other aids to aid boarding."
It is not going to be easy. However a common misconception is that aircraft go straight to the bottom. On the basis of the evidence this is a fallacy, even in quite high seas.
There is one of those all too often repeated sayings in yachting - "only get into the liferaft if you have to step up into it from the sinking yacht". It has some relevance though in that with any luck you will be stepping off the wing into the raft, not trying to climb into it out of the sea.
I dont pretend a raft is a panacea - but it does give you a better survival chance than anything else, with dry suits close behind albeit not favoured by many on grounds of comfort and needing a suit for every passenger.
It is not going to be easy. However a common misconception is that aircraft go straight to the bottom. On the basis of the evidence this is a fallacy, even in quite high seas.
There is one of those all too often repeated sayings in yachting - "only get into the liferaft if you have to step up into it from the sinking yacht". It has some relevance though in that with any luck you will be stepping off the wing into the raft, not trying to climb into it out of the sea.
I dont pretend a raft is a panacea - but it does give you a better survival chance than anything else, with dry suits close behind albeit not favoured by many on grounds of comfort and needing a suit for every passenger.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 14th Nov 2006 at 20:23.
Red On, Green On
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Take my tip. Get a life raft that's capable of holding one more than you have total persons. I spent 18 hours in a liferaft for for six, with five others. Despite being properly dressed we froze (it was February) and if one of us had to move to improve circulation, we all had to move. One was so cold he couldn't pee, despite being very desperate to go.
It was OK though, as we got rescued when the wind blew up to a six. The rescue boat was swamped as we reached the jetty, so we had to swim/jump for it.
Lucky it was just an aircrew survival course in Poole Harbour
Then we were dropped in the New Forest with no food for another five days, but that's another story.
It was OK though, as we got rescued when the wind blew up to a six. The rescue boat was swamped as we reached the jetty, so we had to swim/jump for it.
Lucky it was just an aircrew survival course in Poole Harbour
Then we were dropped in the New Forest with no food for another five days, but that's another story.
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MJ
I could pretend ignorance and ask whether you are just winding everybody up, but I suspect you are being serious.
Which is really counterproductive in this case. As Fuji says, without a raft you are stuffed. The default outcome will be death. For you and your passengers, plus any children who will die a lot quicker than you (unless they are the increasingly common super-obese British kids, some of whom - thanks to their parents feeding them rubbish - don't need a liferaft).
Unless you get lucky and ditch next to a vessel, whose captain is awake. Most commercial shipping runs on GPS-driven autopilots so this is not guaranteed.
You've got to remember that the plane will sink, within a few minutes. Unless it is a pressurised type, and you close the door behind you
it will virtually always be gone by the time any conventional S&R arrives. So, of the cases where nobody was rescued, nobody knows whether they hit the water at -10,000fpm in a spiral dive or whether they ditched and got out fine and then died. On non-AOC piston GA flights, the wreckage tends to be left down there. Quite a thought!
Whereas with a raft you have a chance. The default position is that you will get in and survive. OK, it may be duff, or it may be mishandled and lost, etc. But the chance is that it will open just fine. I gather that the chance of a regularly serviced raft failing is about 1-2%.
As for the operating cord, you need to pull out about 4-5ft before it triggers it, and that is fine for attaching the loop to e.g. the yoke nearest the exit door, and then pulling it out, with the raft already wholly outside the plane. This is a matter of knowing this, and also briefing pasengers on it (in case the pilot is incapacitated).
There are gotchas with rafts.
Some d1ckhead might activate it inside the plane, despite having been told by the pilot that that will be certain death for all. That's why I keep a knife, stowed away in a very accessible place (to puncture it).
Also some are too heavy for a lot of people to lift; the well marketed RFD raft (Transair, etc) is no doubt of very good quality (all RFD stuff is very good) but it is too heavy for smaller people to move about. I had one on loan and could only just move it on/off the back seat. I carry a U.S. one from Survival Products, from Harry M.
One needs one with a canopy, but they cost a bit more.
It needs to be looked at, every couple of years say, and this is about £200 at SEMS, Basildon.
You have to say NO when some flying club asks to borrow it for their next fly-out to LTQ, because if it comes back even remotely looking like somebody has a look inside, it has to go back for an overhaul; another £200. But then would you lend your parachute to somebody you don't know, to chuck in and out of the back of a PA28?
I could pretend ignorance and ask whether you are just winding everybody up, but I suspect you are being serious.
Which is really counterproductive in this case. As Fuji says, without a raft you are stuffed. The default outcome will be death. For you and your passengers, plus any children who will die a lot quicker than you (unless they are the increasingly common super-obese British kids, some of whom - thanks to their parents feeding them rubbish - don't need a liferaft).
Unless you get lucky and ditch next to a vessel, whose captain is awake. Most commercial shipping runs on GPS-driven autopilots so this is not guaranteed.
You've got to remember that the plane will sink, within a few minutes. Unless it is a pressurised type, and you close the door behind you
it will virtually always be gone by the time any conventional S&R arrives. So, of the cases where nobody was rescued, nobody knows whether they hit the water at -10,000fpm in a spiral dive or whether they ditched and got out fine and then died. On non-AOC piston GA flights, the wreckage tends to be left down there. Quite a thought!Whereas with a raft you have a chance. The default position is that you will get in and survive. OK, it may be duff, or it may be mishandled and lost, etc. But the chance is that it will open just fine. I gather that the chance of a regularly serviced raft failing is about 1-2%.
As for the operating cord, you need to pull out about 4-5ft before it triggers it, and that is fine for attaching the loop to e.g. the yoke nearest the exit door, and then pulling it out, with the raft already wholly outside the plane. This is a matter of knowing this, and also briefing pasengers on it (in case the pilot is incapacitated).
There are gotchas with rafts.
Some d1ckhead might activate it inside the plane, despite having been told by the pilot that that will be certain death for all. That's why I keep a knife, stowed away in a very accessible place (to puncture it).
Also some are too heavy for a lot of people to lift; the well marketed RFD raft (Transair, etc) is no doubt of very good quality (all RFD stuff is very good) but it is too heavy for smaller people to move about. I had one on loan and could only just move it on/off the back seat. I carry a U.S. one from Survival Products, from Harry M.
One needs one with a canopy, but they cost a bit more.
It needs to be looked at, every couple of years say, and this is about £200 at SEMS, Basildon.
You have to say NO when some flying club asks to borrow it for their next fly-out to LTQ, because if it comes back even remotely looking like somebody has a look inside, it has to go back for an overhaul; another £200. But then would you lend your parachute to somebody you don't know, to chuck in and out of the back of a PA28?
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ditching
Funnily enough when I arrived at the last Helitech at Duxford in my R44 I recognised the chappie who landed next to me as Steve Brookes - a very nice guy and survivor of an Antarctic ditching and subsequently first piston chopper pilot to reach the South Pole (along with Q Smith). On the minibus from heli parking to the show I quizzed him about his near death experience bobbing around in the freezing drink
.
The chopper had no floats and I don't know whether they had a raft but they didn't get into one - they were wearing survival suits though (which saved their lives).
The suits were not zipped up with hoods up etc...(they didn't have time as they were wearing headsets and autoratated into the drink pretty quickly).
Apparently it took 6 months before they could feel their extremities - not because of frostbite but slow insidious cooling of the tissues esp nerves.
Scary stuff
- I don't think many people get the reprieve they did when a heroic Chilean pilot spotted them in poor wx and directed a boat in to collect them.
I never cross La manche sans dingy - always in the back seat within easy reach. EPIRB, backup VHF radio in waterproof bag and flare gun also packed together.
I should also wear a lifejacket for the crossing but rarely do anymore such is my faith in Mr Continental however if kids are aboard I always set a good example and put one on.
As for a survival suit - I own a reconditioned one and used to wear it going across to Jersey in my little kitplane - laziness and apathy have set in though and the 1 hr crossing has become 40 mins - it now graces a dusty peg in my hangar.
Just think how much of a prat you would feel if the engine quit half way across and the raft was in the hangar - DOH!
SB
.The chopper had no floats and I don't know whether they had a raft but they didn't get into one - they were wearing survival suits though (which saved their lives).
The suits were not zipped up with hoods up etc...(they didn't have time as they were wearing headsets and autoratated into the drink pretty quickly).
Apparently it took 6 months before they could feel their extremities - not because of frostbite but slow insidious cooling of the tissues esp nerves.
Scary stuff
- I don't think many people get the reprieve they did when a heroic Chilean pilot spotted them in poor wx and directed a boat in to collect them. I never cross La manche sans dingy - always in the back seat within easy reach. EPIRB, backup VHF radio in waterproof bag and flare gun also packed together.
I should also wear a lifejacket for the crossing but rarely do anymore such is my faith in Mr Continental however if kids are aboard I always set a good example and put one on.
As for a survival suit - I own a reconditioned one and used to wear it going across to Jersey in my little kitplane - laziness and apathy have set in though and the 1 hr crossing has become 40 mins - it now graces a dusty peg in my hangar.
Just think how much of a prat you would feel if the engine quit half way across and the raft was in the hangar - DOH!
SB
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Despite my faith in the donkey when flying the Cessna I have often contemplated a raft. Flying Perpignan to Majorca in the 172 direct airways with no life raft did make me think more than once about buying one, even made me think about putting the life jacket on!
Any suggestions on a good raft?
Any suggestions on a good raft?
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The one I have is about 2nd one down this page
http://gps.co.uk/cgi-bin/weblistpage.pl?liferafts
Except I paid at least £1200 for it, in 2003
Prices have come way down. Soon it will cost less than a bose-x headset....
It's compact and very movable; a 6 year old can move it.
http://gps.co.uk/cgi-bin/weblistpage.pl?liferafts
Except I paid at least £1200 for it, in 2003
Prices have come way down. Soon it will cost less than a bose-x headset....It's compact and very movable; a 6 year old can move it.
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I have and I am sure Bose-x has been soaking wet, submerged on an off for a couple of hours at a time for upwards of 12 hours in one day in water temps down to 4 degs and wind chills down to - 10deg. And after 12 hours straight down the pub stinking of baby talc and sweaty arm pits, although as he is a tecky boy he proberly use KY jelly 
. There have been cases of divers lost at night for 18+ hours in suits. And the only casulty being the boat driver who left them out there after greeting them on the pad when they got back, broken nose I think.
You are kidding yourself if you think that a raft gives you anywhere near the same protection as a suit. What about matey boy down in the south sea capsizing, 4 days. Your not going to tell me he would have survived that in a pair jeans t-shirt and a fleece in a raft. Jeans t-shirt and a fleece in a suit he did submerged.
Without protection in a raft unless you are dry you will be lucky to get 2 hours without being dead. You actually when wet cool down faster on the surface with the air/wind evaporating the water off you than you do when submerged. It's more about keeping the layer of clothing next to your skin dry or wind free than anything else.
A EPIRB especially if switched on when the problems occur, coupled to a Mayday on 121.5 will have the helicopter turning before you have touched the water. They will have a straight line intercept for your position. The coastguard can DF you. Before you have even touched the water channel 16 will be.
"All stations, all stations, Mayday Mayday Mayday in progress, aircraft ditching lat.... long.... report any sightings. Dover ferry xxx turn port 30 degrees report."
All the british Ferrys for P&O are half payed for in grants off the goverment and have war roles. They have to responed to and have to do training for emergency rescues. And all boats in British waters have to respond to a call an emergency on channel 16 and they had better have a very good reason to refuse to help.
Just tell D&D what your going to do ie straight ahead or circle down in your present position. In the channel you are not going to be more than 30mins after splash before there a boat or a chopper plucking you out of the drink.
And if a plane stays afloat long enough for you to step into the raft with the aircrat sinking behind you. You will more than likely not need the raft at all. The fuel tanks with the fuel being lighter than water provide the bouyancy not the cabin. So if your in a low wing you can sit on the roof. If you in a high wing you are doing the swim and escape thing which means you are more than likely going to loose the raft and are already 20mins into the dead thing. The kids in the back are dead anyway.
Its the fact that D&D know your precise postion which saves you not that you are in raft.
edited to add.
I really do think Life rafts are pish compared to suits and the inflatable type which are now being phased out now because they are pish in marine circles are the worst. Unless you have a suit on your dead anyway and there isn't much time difference between in raft and out in british waters. And for cross channel stuff totally inadequate for what people report them to save you from. Kids are Knackard anyway because of there surface area to volume ratio. Why do you think its a legal requirement for all off shore crews to wear emersion suits and carry beacons. When they train you they virtually tell you your not going have a raft and to link arms and stay together.
I really don't think you will have a chance in hell getting out of cold water into a raft unless you have any training / experence operating in the sea. I struggled like hell with 800 dives under my belt most of which involved grabbing boats in various levels of sea with twin tanks and a couple of ponys hung of the side.
The only thing rafts do is keep people together for recovery when they are in suits and extend your exposure. Without suits they only stop the bodies floating off if you get into them in the first place.
And IO I can garantee without doing the life raft course you will flip that wendy house before the first person has got in. If you do ever have to use it anger you need people on the oppersite side to that which the first person is boarding. And I presume it doesn't have handles on the backside which poeple with hyperthermia can actually hold in thier hands. The proper ones have foot grips so you can stand on them so the whole thing doesn't go over.
. There have been cases of divers lost at night for 18+ hours in suits. And the only casulty being the boat driver who left them out there after greeting them on the pad when they got back, broken nose I think.You are kidding yourself if you think that a raft gives you anywhere near the same protection as a suit. What about matey boy down in the south sea capsizing, 4 days. Your not going to tell me he would have survived that in a pair jeans t-shirt and a fleece in a raft. Jeans t-shirt and a fleece in a suit he did submerged.
Without protection in a raft unless you are dry you will be lucky to get 2 hours without being dead. You actually when wet cool down faster on the surface with the air/wind evaporating the water off you than you do when submerged. It's more about keeping the layer of clothing next to your skin dry or wind free than anything else.
A EPIRB especially if switched on when the problems occur, coupled to a Mayday on 121.5 will have the helicopter turning before you have touched the water. They will have a straight line intercept for your position. The coastguard can DF you. Before you have even touched the water channel 16 will be.
"All stations, all stations, Mayday Mayday Mayday in progress, aircraft ditching lat.... long.... report any sightings. Dover ferry xxx turn port 30 degrees report."
All the british Ferrys for P&O are half payed for in grants off the goverment and have war roles. They have to responed to and have to do training for emergency rescues. And all boats in British waters have to respond to a call an emergency on channel 16 and they had better have a very good reason to refuse to help.
Just tell D&D what your going to do ie straight ahead or circle down in your present position. In the channel you are not going to be more than 30mins after splash before there a boat or a chopper plucking you out of the drink.
And if a plane stays afloat long enough for you to step into the raft with the aircrat sinking behind you. You will more than likely not need the raft at all. The fuel tanks with the fuel being lighter than water provide the bouyancy not the cabin. So if your in a low wing you can sit on the roof. If you in a high wing you are doing the swim and escape thing which means you are more than likely going to loose the raft and are already 20mins into the dead thing. The kids in the back are dead anyway.
Its the fact that D&D know your precise postion which saves you not that you are in raft.
edited to add.
I really do think Life rafts are pish compared to suits and the inflatable type which are now being phased out now because they are pish in marine circles are the worst. Unless you have a suit on your dead anyway and there isn't much time difference between in raft and out in british waters. And for cross channel stuff totally inadequate for what people report them to save you from. Kids are Knackard anyway because of there surface area to volume ratio. Why do you think its a legal requirement for all off shore crews to wear emersion suits and carry beacons. When they train you they virtually tell you your not going have a raft and to link arms and stay together.
I really don't think you will have a chance in hell getting out of cold water into a raft unless you have any training / experence operating in the sea. I struggled like hell with 800 dives under my belt most of which involved grabbing boats in various levels of sea with twin tanks and a couple of ponys hung of the side.
The only thing rafts do is keep people together for recovery when they are in suits and extend your exposure. Without suits they only stop the bodies floating off if you get into them in the first place.
And IO I can garantee without doing the life raft course you will flip that wendy house before the first person has got in. If you do ever have to use it anger you need people on the oppersite side to that which the first person is boarding. And I presume it doesn't have handles on the backside which poeple with hyperthermia can actually hold in thier hands. The proper ones have foot grips so you can stand on them so the whole thing doesn't go over.
Last edited by mad_jock; 14th Nov 2006 at 22:13.
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"I really do think Life rafts are pish compared"
Yes, but you are not considering the likely circumstances.
The facts:
Most pilots will not wear suitable clothing underneath a dry suit. Why? It is uncomfortable and they are not aware of the importance of doing so.
Most pilots will leave their dry suit unzipped. Why? It is comfortable. They are not aware that they may struggle or forget to do it up in a ditching and they are not aware how serious the consequence of not doing it up are.
Most pilots, even if they have a dry suit for their personal use, are unlikely to have suits for their passengers given the range of sizes potentially needed and the cost.
So, whilst I do not dispute dry suits used properly may provide as good a survival tool, realistically few pilots are likely to buy enough for them and their passengers or use them properly.
Life rafts
Most pilots are aware that life rafts can be bought or hired.
More pilots are aware that they are no longer bulky and are large enough for them and all their passengers.
Few life rafts are sold without a canopy.
Life rafts are therefore a convenient alternative but do they increase your chances of survival?
The facts:
Hypothermia we agree is the biggest risk. Air temperature, being wet and most importantly wind chill contribute to hypothermia. Once in a canopied life raft, radiant heat from the occupants, protection from wind chill from the canopy, the ability to remove water with sponges provided, and with any luck an air temperature that is warmer than the sea combined with the benefit of some solar radiation all contribute to reducing the onset of hypothermia compared to being in the water (with or without a dry suit). Hopefully you will also find there are foil blankets provided.
Moreover, you now have a platform to keep the group together, to support those that cant swim or who are poor swimmers and from which to operate any other rescue equipment you may have (epirbs, flares etc).
Compare that scenario with a pilot in the water who forgot to do up his dry suit, and is wearing a t-shirt and jeans underneath, cant swim very well and is scared of being in the water, a couple of passengers with him who are only wearing life jackets (the pilot didn’t have any extra dry suits), trying to stay together and operate the flares and epirb they some how managed to hang on to which are now underneath the water in a rather cold hand!
In short there is no perfect solution. There is no guarantee you will get out of the aircraft with the liferaft, or get in it when you have got out. However I submit a raft provides most pilots with the best and practically most realistic way of improving their survival chances in a ditching (short of course of the yellow brick afore referred).
Yes, but you are not considering the likely circumstances.
The facts:
Most pilots will not wear suitable clothing underneath a dry suit. Why? It is uncomfortable and they are not aware of the importance of doing so.
Most pilots will leave their dry suit unzipped. Why? It is comfortable. They are not aware that they may struggle or forget to do it up in a ditching and they are not aware how serious the consequence of not doing it up are.
Most pilots, even if they have a dry suit for their personal use, are unlikely to have suits for their passengers given the range of sizes potentially needed and the cost.
So, whilst I do not dispute dry suits used properly may provide as good a survival tool, realistically few pilots are likely to buy enough for them and their passengers or use them properly.
Life rafts
Most pilots are aware that life rafts can be bought or hired.
More pilots are aware that they are no longer bulky and are large enough for them and all their passengers.
Few life rafts are sold without a canopy.
Life rafts are therefore a convenient alternative but do they increase your chances of survival?
The facts:
Hypothermia we agree is the biggest risk. Air temperature, being wet and most importantly wind chill contribute to hypothermia. Once in a canopied life raft, radiant heat from the occupants, protection from wind chill from the canopy, the ability to remove water with sponges provided, and with any luck an air temperature that is warmer than the sea combined with the benefit of some solar radiation all contribute to reducing the onset of hypothermia compared to being in the water (with or without a dry suit). Hopefully you will also find there are foil blankets provided.
Moreover, you now have a platform to keep the group together, to support those that cant swim or who are poor swimmers and from which to operate any other rescue equipment you may have (epirbs, flares etc).
Compare that scenario with a pilot in the water who forgot to do up his dry suit, and is wearing a t-shirt and jeans underneath, cant swim very well and is scared of being in the water, a couple of passengers with him who are only wearing life jackets (the pilot didn’t have any extra dry suits), trying to stay together and operate the flares and epirb they some how managed to hang on to which are now underneath the water in a rather cold hand!
In short there is no perfect solution. There is no guarantee you will get out of the aircraft with the liferaft, or get in it when you have got out. However I submit a raft provides most pilots with the best and practically most realistic way of improving their survival chances in a ditching (short of course of the yellow brick afore referred).
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Yes I am considering the circumstances. The perfect solution is to wear a suit, if you decide the risk is unacceptable. Why bother getting a solution to a very remote problem which isn't going completly solve the problem in the first place and actually works out more expensive in the long run with a few trips than getting the solution which completely solves the problem.
As far as I can see you can hire a raft for ? 120 quid? for the weekend. Which might if you get all the planets together, the right people on board, the sea in the right state, the right ditching conditions, the aircraft has a low wing. Or you hire suits for the weekend which scary enough costs the same 120 quid fully does the job you don't have to worry about all the things which are going to cock you up with the raft, and you are up to 12 hours plus survivial time in sub 5 deg water for 4 suits for hire.
Buying a raft costs at least 900 quid for the wendy house option which you must admit is pish and totally useless in british waters for anything over a sea state 2, for which you could buy over 9 suits off ebay which will allow you to survive in hurricane conditions. Bitch to store I will admit.
My whole point is you might as well not bother at all. The only thing which is going to really do anything for your survival is a beacon.
All i wear under my dry suit is a pair of pants and a t-shirt. I am sure they will have more than that on. If you ever get a wooly bear you will never get your wife out of the thing in the house. Its like a giant adult baby grow made out of fleece, zero chance on getting your hands on her bits.
Its not the zip that annoys its the neck seal. A silcone seal solves the problem.
the point I making is that a raft doesn't solve the problem you are trying to solve in British waters. Yes in the crib or FL etc but not here.
Anyone want to buy a yellow brick? 1 pound extra for a thick tape to tie onto your mother in law.
A few links to prove a point that you are fecked if you get wet without a suit
http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/TP/.../chapter-3.htm
And
http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/TP/.../chapter-1.htm
The graph is quite interesting half way down. It states that at 10deg water temp you go from 1 hour to death in clothes to 12+ hours wearing a suit.
You will also note as well the cold swim shock stuff. And the difference between dry shod life raft entry and wet. And to be honest your going to be wet in UK waters even if you get in dry with a 4 man wendy house.
I really hope though we can agree that the marine transport dept for canada know what they are talking about when it comes to getting cold.
My reading of the report is that life rafts are pish and suits work why bother with something that doesn't work?
As far as I can see you can hire a raft for ? 120 quid? for the weekend. Which might if you get all the planets together, the right people on board, the sea in the right state, the right ditching conditions, the aircraft has a low wing. Or you hire suits for the weekend which scary enough costs the same 120 quid fully does the job you don't have to worry about all the things which are going to cock you up with the raft, and you are up to 12 hours plus survivial time in sub 5 deg water for 4 suits for hire.
Buying a raft costs at least 900 quid for the wendy house option which you must admit is pish and totally useless in british waters for anything over a sea state 2, for which you could buy over 9 suits off ebay which will allow you to survive in hurricane conditions. Bitch to store I will admit.
My whole point is you might as well not bother at all. The only thing which is going to really do anything for your survival is a beacon.
All i wear under my dry suit is a pair of pants and a t-shirt. I am sure they will have more than that on. If you ever get a wooly bear you will never get your wife out of the thing in the house. Its like a giant adult baby grow made out of fleece, zero chance on getting your hands on her bits.
Its not the zip that annoys its the neck seal. A silcone seal solves the problem.
the point I making is that a raft doesn't solve the problem you are trying to solve in British waters. Yes in the crib or FL etc but not here.
Anyone want to buy a yellow brick? 1 pound extra for a thick tape to tie onto your mother in law.
A few links to prove a point that you are fecked if you get wet without a suit
http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/TP/.../chapter-3.htm
And
http://www.tc.gc.ca/marinesafety/TP/.../chapter-1.htm
The graph is quite interesting half way down. It states that at 10deg water temp you go from 1 hour to death in clothes to 12+ hours wearing a suit.
You will also note as well the cold swim shock stuff. And the difference between dry shod life raft entry and wet. And to be honest your going to be wet in UK waters even if you get in dry with a 4 man wendy house.
I really hope though we can agree that the marine transport dept for canada know what they are talking about when it comes to getting cold.
In summary, from 1945 until 1995 a great deal of scientific, industrial, training and legislative effort has been put into the prevention of hypothermia. As a result, in both Europe and North America, particularly Canada, there are very good survival suit regulations
Last edited by mad_jock; 14th Nov 2006 at 23:50.
Why ditch in the first place?
reading this thread, I can't help feeling that all the energy spent sorting out what to do in the event of ditching wouldn't be better spent in making sure you don't ever have to ditch. I realise that we are juggling probabilities, but if I spent time taking my 1-in-10 chance of survival to 1-in-100, wouldn't it be better to spend the effort making your 1-in-100 000 risk of ditching to 1-in-1 000 000? Prevention being better than cure.
I noticed that someone posted earlier that 1/3 of ditchings are caused by fuel problems of some sort. I worry not knowing what causes the other 2/3rds. Any clues?
I'll admit I have never piloted a water crossing, but I would have thought a pre-crossing checklist and ultra-conservatism in decision making would easily give you an order of magnitude improvement in risk.
Do people who fly water crossings plan a decision point where everything has to be green (excluding the passengers!) before one continues?
I would imagine it would be preferable to fly a certain distance overland prior to the water crossing too? i.e. departing Shoreham or Lydd after refuelling and heading straight out over the briney doesn't seem like a bright idea to me. If you have half an hour airbourne over land to be sure that you have no oil temp problems, no fuel leaks, etc. it must be a good insurance policy?
What does 'good airmanship' dictate in terms of planning?
A
PS: I have ambitions to PPL my way to France as soon as I can!
I noticed that someone posted earlier that 1/3 of ditchings are caused by fuel problems of some sort. I worry not knowing what causes the other 2/3rds. Any clues?
I'll admit I have never piloted a water crossing, but I would have thought a pre-crossing checklist and ultra-conservatism in decision making would easily give you an order of magnitude improvement in risk.
Do people who fly water crossings plan a decision point where everything has to be green (excluding the passengers!) before one continues?
I would imagine it would be preferable to fly a certain distance overland prior to the water crossing too? i.e. departing Shoreham or Lydd after refuelling and heading straight out over the briney doesn't seem like a bright idea to me. If you have half an hour airbourne over land to be sure that you have no oil temp problems, no fuel leaks, etc. it must be a good insurance policy?
What does 'good airmanship' dictate in terms of planning?
A
PS: I have ambitions to PPL my way to France as soon as I can!
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I'm afraid I agree with MJ ... mind you Andy_RR has probably made the most pertinant post.
I used to work as a proffessional fisherman and shudder now to think of those times that I pee'd over the back in the dark of night, alone whilst the crew were drinking tea below deck. No lifejacket (impractical most of the time for commercial fishing) high seas, often out of the transport lanes ....
We did survival courses and I can tell you that getting into a liferaft even under controlled circustances back then as a fit 20 something was not at all easy. Having just survived a ditching, being older, worring about passengers, ect ect would almost make it impossible. It's not of course, but the odds are stacked against you!
It's interesting to note that in the Fastnet disaster, most of the casualties had abandoned their yachts for the ill percieved safety of flimsy little liferafts. Yes, liferafts are ok if you have room and enough spare weight. However, some sort of survival suit would be far more practical. Even wearing a wet suit would be better than nothing (might cause some second looks as you de-frock at L2K though ). We once picked up some drift divers who's support boat had suffered engine failure. They'd been in the water several hours in the early spring, and whilst cold, were not too the worst for it.
The sea like the air is not to be taken lightly, but again it all comes down to personal levels of acceptable risk. Who does the full bit when flying to Sandown? The risk is still there, but few bother as the hope for a quick pick up increases that acceptable risk (mind you in winter, the chances are still not brilliant even in the Solent).
SS
I used to work as a proffessional fisherman and shudder now to think of those times that I pee'd over the back in the dark of night, alone whilst the crew were drinking tea below deck. No lifejacket (impractical most of the time for commercial fishing) high seas, often out of the transport lanes ....
We did survival courses and I can tell you that getting into a liferaft even under controlled circustances back then as a fit 20 something was not at all easy. Having just survived a ditching, being older, worring about passengers, ect ect would almost make it impossible. It's not of course, but the odds are stacked against you!
It's interesting to note that in the Fastnet disaster, most of the casualties had abandoned their yachts for the ill percieved safety of flimsy little liferafts. Yes, liferafts are ok if you have room and enough spare weight. However, some sort of survival suit would be far more practical. Even wearing a wet suit would be better than nothing (might cause some second looks as you de-frock at L2K though ). We once picked up some drift divers who's support boat had suffered engine failure. They'd been in the water several hours in the early spring, and whilst cold, were not too the worst for it.The sea like the air is not to be taken lightly, but again it all comes down to personal levels of acceptable risk. Who does the full bit when flying to Sandown? The risk is still there, but few bother as the hope for a quick pick up increases that acceptable risk (mind you in winter, the chances are still not brilliant even in the Solent).
SS
Last edited by shortstripper; 15th Nov 2006 at 06:16.
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How many trips have you done over water in light GA aircraft Wombat?
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Bose-x, that is all very interesting stuff, but..........
I don't belong to the camp that suggests flying to France is very different to any other flight. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes the engine knows it is over water. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes you should have a life raft strapped to the wing.
All I believe is that it is prudent to be up to scratch on flying off the AI before embarking on on a VMC water crossing - because it can be different to VMC over land.
As for your request for me to get into a pissing competition with you on experience, you really are asking the wrong person.
The Wombat
I don't belong to the camp that suggests flying to France is very different to any other flight. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes the engine knows it is over water. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes you should have a life raft strapped to the wing.
All I believe is that it is prudent to be up to scratch on flying off the AI before embarking on on a VMC water crossing - because it can be different to VMC over land.
As for your request for me to get into a pissing competition with you on experience, you really are asking the wrong person.
The Wombat
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Bose-x, that is all very interesting stuff, but..........
I don't belong to the camp that suggests flying to France is very different to any other flight. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes the engine knows it is over water. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes you should have a life raft strapped to the wing.
All I believe is that it is prudent to be up to scratch on flying off the AI before embarking on on a VMC water crossing - because it can be different to VMC over land.
As for your request for me to get into a pissing competition with you on experience, you really are asking the wrong person.
The Wombat
I don't belong to the camp that suggests flying to France is very different to any other flight. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes the engine knows it is over water. Nor do I belong to the camp that believes you should have a life raft strapped to the wing.
All I believe is that it is prudent to be up to scratch on flying off the AI before embarking on on a VMC water crossing - because it can be different to VMC over land.
As for your request for me to get into a pissing competition with you on experience, you really are asking the wrong person.
The Wombat
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"After 20yrs of teaching diving ranging from working for the British Antarctic Survey, rigs off scotland to fat yanks in Jamaica I also have a pretty good understanding of exposure protection and what works. I am also used to making life or death risk assessment in very inhostpitable enviornments."
I just had to say that it reminded me of that lovely bit in the film Cool Runnings where Sanka is says he knows a bit about push carts coming from six wins in the island derby and the coach tells him he has competed in 8 Olympics and won 6 gold metals (or watever).
In the same way as Sanka reading your background it automatically may me think:
THATS IS A HELL OF A PLACE TO BE COMING FROM !
I just had to say that it reminded me of that lovely bit in the film Cool Runnings where Sanka is says he knows a bit about push carts coming from six wins in the island derby and the coach tells him he has competed in 8 Olympics and won 6 gold metals (or watever).
In the same way as Sanka reading your background it automatically may me think:
THATS IS A HELL OF A PLACE TO BE COMING FROM
!
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"After 20yrs of teaching diving ranging from working for the British Antarctic Survey, rigs off scotland to fat yanks in Jamaica I also have a pretty good understanding of exposure protection and what works. I am also used to making life or death risk assessment in very inhostpitable enviornments."
I just had to say that it reminded me of that lovely bit in the film Cool Runnings where Sanka is says he knows a bit about push carts coming from six wins in the island derby and the coach tells him he has competed in 8 Olympics and won 6 gold metals (or watever).
In the same way as Sanka reading your background it automatically may me think:
THATS IS A HELL OF A PLACE TO BE COMING FROM !
I just had to say that it reminded me of that lovely bit in the film Cool Runnings where Sanka is says he knows a bit about push carts coming from six wins in the island derby and the coach tells him he has competed in 8 Olympics and won 6 gold metals (or watever).
In the same way as Sanka reading your background it automatically may me think:
THATS IS A HELL OF A PLACE TO BE COMING FROM
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Andy your thinking is sound. Although India to France is a different league to a channel crossing :P
A wee PM to one of the D&D chaps on this board or phone them to organise you and a packet of choc biscuits to visit them. And you will have done about 50% more planning than most.
They will tell you exactly which route will give you optimum SAR cover and also what information and where to put it to maximise your recovery options in the unlikely event the need should arise.They will also be able to give you the benefit of all the common cockups which occur and they have to deal with.
To be honest if it wasn't so far away I would come along to.
And apparenty if you go and speak to your local RNLI station they are more than happy to give you free safety advice. You never know they may let you be a training aid for the day. And if you do speak to them and it turns out I have been talking poo. Post it on here for the benefit of all.
A wee PM to one of the D&D chaps on this board or phone them to organise you and a packet of choc biscuits to visit them. And you will have done about 50% more planning than most.
They will tell you exactly which route will give you optimum SAR cover and also what information and where to put it to maximise your recovery options in the unlikely event the need should arise.They will also be able to give you the benefit of all the common cockups which occur and they have to deal with.
To be honest if it wasn't so far away I would come along to.
And apparenty if you go and speak to your local RNLI station they are more than happy to give you free safety advice. You never know they may let you be a training aid for the day. And if you do speak to them and it turns out I have been talking poo. Post it on here for the benefit of all.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Nov 2006 at 13:50. Reason: to add some cheek.
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All the british Ferrys for P&O are half payed for in grants off the goverment and have war roles. They have to responed to and have to do training for emergency rescues. And all boats in British waters have to respond to a call an emergency on channel 16 and they had better have a very good reason to refuse to help.
Working on one of the above, I have first hand experience of the maritime efforts made when anything even remotely suspected to be a MOB or equivalent is reported. A passenger thinks he has seen an orange lifejacketed blob in the water: the whole circus reacts immediately.
As non-swimming proof of the efficacy of a life jacket, I'll take anything that I can get into the aeroplane, which amounts to not a lot. Flying in company with another aircraft helps too, even if it has absolutely no effect on the engine/visibility/skill level.
Flying incurs some risk. So does everything else. Pilots possibly perform more risk assessment than most and having done so, should go and have fun.