Crossing the English Channel in a SEP
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Question for Cirrus Pilots
Can I ask any Cirrus pilots out there if faced with a engine failure mid channel would they pull the CAPS handle?
I'm sure I read somewhere that a US pilot received serious back injuries from a water ditching using the parachute due to no cushioning from the undercarriage.
Just enquiring as someday I may get the pleasure to fly a Cirrus across the channel. The escape handle would seem all to tempting to me but would a standard ditching be a better option?
I'm sure I read somewhere that a US pilot received serious back injuries from a water ditching using the parachute due to no cushioning from the undercarriage.
Just enquiring as someday I may get the pleasure to fly a Cirrus across the channel. The escape handle would seem all to tempting to me but would a standard ditching be a better option?
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For what its worth, I recently made a fairly long sea crossing in a light single in Scotland. I was concerned enough about it to research survival times in the sea which was about 10C at the time. I ended up wearing an immersion suit (only a basic one like the oil rig workers wear on the big choppers) over ski trousers, and lots of upper layers, woolly jumper, fleece etc. Then I wore a woolly hat, wetsuit gloves (poor cabin heat anyway!), boots over the suit, then an 121.5 beacon thingy strapped to my upper arm, another one in a leg pocket, and a couple of marsbars and a knife.
I spent about 45 minutes over water in total. This kit certainly made me feel a lot less at risk, even if it was only perceived.
On the other hand, I ended up flying IFR over an overcast layer above mountains for a short while, which in hindsight would have been by far the worst place to have engine trouble, but I had put so much thought into the wet bit I didn't think about the hilly bit.
Someone mentioned turning up at L2K in a wetsuit, well I did that once, and although I know the wetsuit would have given me a much better chance of survival, I wouldn't recommend it because you get so dammed sweaty in them, its really not comfy, in fact far worse than the immersion suit.
PS. I did once cross the channel without any lifejackets/kit but maybe that's why I'm more careful now days!
I spent about 45 minutes over water in total. This kit certainly made me feel a lot less at risk, even if it was only perceived.
On the other hand, I ended up flying IFR over an overcast layer above mountains for a short while, which in hindsight would have been by far the worst place to have engine trouble, but I had put so much thought into the wet bit I didn't think about the hilly bit.
Someone mentioned turning up at L2K in a wetsuit, well I did that once, and although I know the wetsuit would have given me a much better chance of survival, I wouldn't recommend it because you get so dammed sweaty in them, its really not comfy, in fact far worse than the immersion suit.
PS. I did once cross the channel without any lifejackets/kit but maybe that's why I'm more careful now days!
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Here is some more food for thought on risk management and risk exposure.
I will not fly single engine over water beyond gliding distance of land.
However we do fly these things across oceans.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...rdamBridge.jpg
For the first six to eight hours we are flying two single engine airplanes at the same time as an engine failure means ditching due to being to heavy with fuel to stay airborne.
On the plus side we have an excellent chance of sucessfully landing and staying afloat in almost any sea state, and of course we fly with full imersion suits and two life rafts.
But the risk is there and must be analyzed carefully for each flight.
Chuck E.
I will not fly single engine over water beyond gliding distance of land.
However we do fly these things across oceans.
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...rdamBridge.jpg
For the first six to eight hours we are flying two single engine airplanes at the same time as an engine failure means ditching due to being to heavy with fuel to stay airborne.
On the plus side we have an excellent chance of sucessfully landing and staying afloat in almost any sea state, and of course we fly with full imersion suits and two life rafts.
But the risk is there and must be analyzed carefully for each flight.
Chuck E.
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Cross channel flight
All this noise about how safe it is to cross the channel is a little tedious, can we keep this succinct?
0) Plan thoroughly & take someone whos been before
1) Check that the aircraft is 100%
2) Check that the weather is 100%
3) Try to avoid Spring time as the water is coldest then.
4) Wear lifejackets or immersion suits
5) Remember to turn round if the vis. becomes bad
6) Be clear about the procedures for exiting a ditched aircraft
7) Take the shortest over water route
8) Go as high as possible (>4500ft)
9) Bring back some trophee duty free
A danger to consider is being hit by a boat if you do go in the drink.
A final anecdote, a group of microlight guys crossed the channel except for one who had to ditch & another who circled over him until the rescue chopper picked him up, they reckon he would not have been found had the other guy not stuck around to relay radio calls etc.
Go for it.
0) Plan thoroughly & take someone whos been before
1) Check that the aircraft is 100%
2) Check that the weather is 100%
3) Try to avoid Spring time as the water is coldest then.
4) Wear lifejackets or immersion suits
5) Remember to turn round if the vis. becomes bad
6) Be clear about the procedures for exiting a ditched aircraft
7) Take the shortest over water route
8) Go as high as possible (>4500ft)
9) Bring back some trophee duty free
A danger to consider is being hit by a boat if you do go in the drink.
A final anecdote, a group of microlight guys crossed the channel except for one who had to ditch & another who circled over him until the rescue chopper picked him up, they reckon he would not have been found had the other guy not stuck around to relay radio calls etc.
Go for it.
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It would be interesting to find out how many of our SEP's that we worry so much about over short water crossings actually arrived in the UK by ferry flight over the ocean. Most of those Ferry pilots make many hundreds of SEP crossings (frequently written out in Pilot Mag) and the engine failure rate is just about ZERO. Most who perish on the journey fall foul of fuel problems or weather problems.
Therefore with a life jacket and proper planning a water crossing is very safe.
Safer than IMC over mountains (or even over a major fog bank) or worse still both at night.
Therefore with a life jacket and proper planning a water crossing is very safe.
Safer than IMC over mountains (or even over a major fog bank) or worse still both at night.
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"Therefore with a life jacket and proper planning a water crossing is very safe.
Safer than IMC over mountains (or even over a major fog bank) or worse still both at night."
I think I know what you mean but the engine no more knows it is over fog, mountains or water.
The risk of engine failure in any situation is fortunately very small.
The survivability of water without protection from the cold (and a lifejacket most certainly does not count) or from impacting whatever you might impact in mountains or over fog is debatable.
Personally I think I would take mountains, fog then water unless I knew for sure someone would pull be out the water within three hours (if I was only wearing a life jacket) - and most of the year I wouldnt make it that long I suspect.
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All this noise about how safe it is to cross the channel is a little tedious, can we keep this succinct?"
Blindingly and obvious all seem to come to mind at the same time - we were having a debate about the pros and cons of life rafts and immersion suits. We know the chances of a ditching are very remote and we know there are other precautions you can take - it just so happened we were debating one particular aspect - thread drift yes, but that is how these threads sometimes go.
Safer than IMC over mountains (or even over a major fog bank) or worse still both at night."
I think I know what you mean but the engine no more knows it is over fog, mountains or water.
The risk of engine failure in any situation is fortunately very small.
The survivability of water without protection from the cold (and a lifejacket most certainly does not count) or from impacting whatever you might impact in mountains or over fog is debatable.
Personally I think I would take mountains, fog then water unless I knew for sure someone would pull be out the water within three hours (if I was only wearing a life jacket) - and most of the year I wouldnt make it that long I suspect.
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All this noise about how safe it is to cross the channel is a little tedious, can we keep this succinct?"
Blindingly and obvious all seem to come to mind at the same time - we were having a debate about the pros and cons of life rafts and immersion suits. We know the chances of a ditching are very remote and we know there are other precautions you can take - it just so happened we were debating one particular aspect - thread drift yes, but that is how these threads sometimes go.
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Mind you all this about exposure in water.
Getting stuck in the hills overnight without suitable protection will kill you just as fast as an hour in the water. So dude~ you might have been kitted out by accident alot better than most for a trip over the hills IMC or VMC
The beacons work on the hill, your suit was wind proof and water proof, hat, neoprene gloves, couple of mars bars and a knife to fight off the haggis and the local women. Having survived the forced landing not a bad position to be in.
I am sure that the list of kit the Alaskan's and Candians take with them would be very interesting and proberly includes a big gun.
There is a lovely covering of snow on the Highlands just now.
Getting stuck in the hills overnight without suitable protection will kill you just as fast as an hour in the water. So dude~ you might have been kitted out by accident alot better than most for a trip over the hills IMC or VMC
The beacons work on the hill, your suit was wind proof and water proof, hat, neoprene gloves, couple of mars bars and a knife to fight off the haggis and the local women. Having survived the forced landing not a bad position to be in.
I am sure that the list of kit the Alaskan's and Candians take with them would be very interesting and proberly includes a big gun.
There is a lovely covering of snow on the Highlands just now.
Last edited by mad_jock; 16th Nov 2006 at 15:12.
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[quote=mad_jock;2969482]Mind you all this about exposure in water.
I am sure that the list of kit the Alaskan's and Candians take with them would be very interesting and proberly includes a big gun.
quote]
MJ, Is Candia where candy comes from? Like Mars Bars?
Just wondering, SB
I am sure that the list of kit the Alaskan's and Candians take with them would be very interesting and proberly includes a big gun.
quote]
MJ, Is Candia where candy comes from? Like Mars Bars?
Just wondering, SB
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Jock wrote,
Ah yes I hadn't thought of it like that!
Fuji Abound wrote:
Fuji, are you sure you'd rather mountains before sea? An IMC glide below MSA is very likely going to make you a CFIT statistic before you know it. Give me the sea anyday, as long it's not overcast down to the deck!
(Obviously if its VMC I'd rather take dry land, depending on exact terrain)
So dude~ you might have been kitted out by accident alot better than most for a trip over the hills IMC or VMC
Fuji Abound wrote:
Personally I think I would take mountains, fog then water unless I knew for sure someone would pull be out the water within three hours (if I was only wearing a life jacket) - and most of the year I wouldnt make it that long I suspect.
(Obviously if its VMC I'd rather take dry land, depending on exact terrain)
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The view from the RNLI...
...or at least “a” view.
Hello, everybody. Your moderator suggested I might have a look at this thread, in case there was anything I could contribute.
Firstly, reading your postings really took me back as I actually learnt to fly as a BOAC cadet at the College of Air Training in Hamble in1968!
Naturally our experience is based on the accumulated knowledge of the rescues carried out by our lifeboat crews, and a vast amount of experience from a team of Sea Safety specialists. A lot of what we say concerns survival (after avoiding them) from a boating incidents, which doesn't normally involve any catastrophic impact, such as a plane ditching, however many of the issues could have a parallel relevant to this thread. We only attend a few aircraft incidents.
There are three issues, I think.
o Self-help and preservation
o Calling for help
o Surviving long enough to be rescued
…and a fourth (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition) –
o Being confident of being rescued
Much of what has gone on before about lifejackets and liferafts is relevant. You tend not to drown if you're wearing a lifejacket, though there is such a thing as secondary drowning, of which more later. We advise boaters to always wear a lifejacket, as you never know when you might find yourself in the water, though I guess that is impractical for a pilot. Certainly a lifejacket will keep you afloat long enough to be rescued. However in any kind of choppy sea secondary drowning is an issue, as the body naturally takes a position in the water which is face to the oncoming waves. A spray hood attached to the lifejacket would stop the the waves inhibiting breathing. Many of you will be aware of the ‘Ouzo’ tragedy off the Isle of Wight - the casualties were wearing lifejackets and were floating on the surface, but had drowned.
A liferaft is a practical solution, and the poster who reiterated the advice about stepping up into your liferaft is correct. You do, of course, need to be able to access it and launch it. Remember to tie the life raft to the ‘plane, otherwise it will drift away before you board. Cut the line with a knife once aboard.
With the communications equipment in aircraft, I don't suppose they will be any doubt about your location. A Mayday call is appropriate, as there is grave and imminent danger. We advise boaters to carry flares, not just as a means of communicating distress, but also to indicate their position to the SAR assets. Boaters often carry a small beacon called a PLB, which operates within the GMDSS framework, and transmits a position automatically to the Coastguard.
The survival issue is the one to be aware of. In the summer, survival time in the English Channel, for example, is astonishingly short. One can slip into 50% consciousness within an hour. Heat loss is the killer, and if protective clothing is not worn, death comes quickly. Body heat is lost 26 times faster in water than in air. Again it is probably impractical to contemplate the appropriate garments, however at the very least the pilot and passengers could adopt what is known as the HELP (Heat Escape Lessening Posture) position, which effectively limits the amount of body surface area exposed to the heat sink that is sea. Basically this involves bringing your knees up to your chest, and hugging them, like curling up into a ball.
Be confident of being rescued. As long as you have initiated a Mayday there will be serious search and rescue activity going on on your behalf. RNLI all-weather lifeboats are capable of 25 knots, so our ability to get to you quickly is on your side. The Dover boat would be with you in under an hour, even if you were just off Bleriot-Plage!
Ladies and gentlemen, I hope the foregoing has been helpful in your debate, I shall keep checking into the forum for the next day or two in case there are any questions I might answer, or elaborate on any points.
By the way, the key advice we give to boaters is not to get in the water in the first place. I guess that applies to pilots too.
Best regards, stay safe.
Peter Chennell
RNLI Sea Safety Manager
Hello, everybody. Your moderator suggested I might have a look at this thread, in case there was anything I could contribute.
Firstly, reading your postings really took me back as I actually learnt to fly as a BOAC cadet at the College of Air Training in Hamble in1968!
Naturally our experience is based on the accumulated knowledge of the rescues carried out by our lifeboat crews, and a vast amount of experience from a team of Sea Safety specialists. A lot of what we say concerns survival (after avoiding them) from a boating incidents, which doesn't normally involve any catastrophic impact, such as a plane ditching, however many of the issues could have a parallel relevant to this thread. We only attend a few aircraft incidents.
There are three issues, I think.
o Self-help and preservation
o Calling for help
o Surviving long enough to be rescued
…and a fourth (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition) –
o Being confident of being rescued
Much of what has gone on before about lifejackets and liferafts is relevant. You tend not to drown if you're wearing a lifejacket, though there is such a thing as secondary drowning, of which more later. We advise boaters to always wear a lifejacket, as you never know when you might find yourself in the water, though I guess that is impractical for a pilot. Certainly a lifejacket will keep you afloat long enough to be rescued. However in any kind of choppy sea secondary drowning is an issue, as the body naturally takes a position in the water which is face to the oncoming waves. A spray hood attached to the lifejacket would stop the the waves inhibiting breathing. Many of you will be aware of the ‘Ouzo’ tragedy off the Isle of Wight - the casualties were wearing lifejackets and were floating on the surface, but had drowned.
A liferaft is a practical solution, and the poster who reiterated the advice about stepping up into your liferaft is correct. You do, of course, need to be able to access it and launch it. Remember to tie the life raft to the ‘plane, otherwise it will drift away before you board. Cut the line with a knife once aboard.
With the communications equipment in aircraft, I don't suppose they will be any doubt about your location. A Mayday call is appropriate, as there is grave and imminent danger. We advise boaters to carry flares, not just as a means of communicating distress, but also to indicate their position to the SAR assets. Boaters often carry a small beacon called a PLB, which operates within the GMDSS framework, and transmits a position automatically to the Coastguard.
The survival issue is the one to be aware of. In the summer, survival time in the English Channel, for example, is astonishingly short. One can slip into 50% consciousness within an hour. Heat loss is the killer, and if protective clothing is not worn, death comes quickly. Body heat is lost 26 times faster in water than in air. Again it is probably impractical to contemplate the appropriate garments, however at the very least the pilot and passengers could adopt what is known as the HELP (Heat Escape Lessening Posture) position, which effectively limits the amount of body surface area exposed to the heat sink that is sea. Basically this involves bringing your knees up to your chest, and hugging them, like curling up into a ball.
Be confident of being rescued. As long as you have initiated a Mayday there will be serious search and rescue activity going on on your behalf. RNLI all-weather lifeboats are capable of 25 knots, so our ability to get to you quickly is on your side. The Dover boat would be with you in under an hour, even if you were just off Bleriot-Plage!
Ladies and gentlemen, I hope the foregoing has been helpful in your debate, I shall keep checking into the forum for the next day or two in case there are any questions I might answer, or elaborate on any points.
By the way, the key advice we give to boaters is not to get in the water in the first place. I guess that applies to pilots too.
Best regards, stay safe.
Peter Chennell
RNLI Sea Safety Manager
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Yes, thanks for your response.
There may be a few comments that may be of interest to you as I appreciate you deal with yachts more than planes!
"though I guess that is impractical for a pilot."
Not so. the standard recommendation is for the crew and passengers to wear life jackets. The key is NOT to inflate them until you have left the aircraft as they can prevent you getting out.
"With the communications equipment in aircraft, I don't suppose they will be any doubt about your location"
Not necessarily so. All the aircraft comms are likely to fail the in the water. In the panic a pilot may not give out an accurate position and unfortunately many aircraft still do not carry a GPS which makes it impossible for them to give an accurate position.
"A liferaft is a practical solution"
The unresolved debate on this thread is whether you were better of with a liferaft or immersion / dry suit, and how practical each was as an airborn solution.
If you want to stir the pot you could give the RNLI's views!
There may be a few comments that may be of interest to you as I appreciate you deal with yachts more than planes!
"though I guess that is impractical for a pilot."
Not so. the standard recommendation is for the crew and passengers to wear life jackets. The key is NOT to inflate them until you have left the aircraft as they can prevent you getting out.
"With the communications equipment in aircraft, I don't suppose they will be any doubt about your location"
Not necessarily so. All the aircraft comms are likely to fail the in the water. In the panic a pilot may not give out an accurate position and unfortunately many aircraft still do not carry a GPS which makes it impossible for them to give an accurate position.
"A liferaft is a practical solution"
The unresolved debate on this thread is whether you were better of with a liferaft or immersion / dry suit, and how practical each was as an airborn solution.
If you want to stir the pot you could give the RNLI's views!
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a few more cheap, light things for the kit bag that don't seem to have cropped up earlier in the thread. I am new to flying, but have lots of time at sea in small boats..
A small bag of powdered dye - chandlers should be able to sell you some bright green stuff that is purpose made for the job. A 150ft long bright green stain on the water with you at one end of it makes you much easier to locate.
A decent waterproof strobe light - get one with a length of line attached to it, so that you can hang it down a few feet into the water. If someone is looking for you at night then a big patch of flashing water is much easier to spot than someone waving a torch or a little strobe in the air.
Bright coloured swimming cap - sounds daft, but they do a really good job of helping with heat loss through the head, even under the hood of an immersion suit - get a bright one with fluorescent patches on it that will show up well at night.
A small bag of powdered dye - chandlers should be able to sell you some bright green stuff that is purpose made for the job. A 150ft long bright green stain on the water with you at one end of it makes you much easier to locate.
A decent waterproof strobe light - get one with a length of line attached to it, so that you can hang it down a few feet into the water. If someone is looking for you at night then a big patch of flashing water is much easier to spot than someone waving a torch or a little strobe in the air.
Bright coloured swimming cap - sounds daft, but they do a really good job of helping with heat loss through the head, even under the hood of an immersion suit - get a bright one with fluorescent patches on it that will show up well at night.
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Risk management
Over water flights do have a risk but this can be reduced and managed by some simple precautions, there are two major issues :- staying alive in the water & being located by the rescue services.
As has been said above the water is cold with life expectancy of one hour in the summer and only 10 Min in the winter.
Life jackets must be worn at all times when over the water there is simply not enough room to put them on when the engine stops.
A liferaft is also a must as said above this must be attached to the aircraft when deployed I have a seat belt attachment on my liferaft so the seat belt is released to enable escape from the aircraft I attach the liferaft to the seatbelt, this has the advantage that no sharp items are needed to launch the liferaft and release from the aircraft is easy.
Once in the liferaft half the problems with the cold are over and the problem of being located are about to start.
When ever I fly across the water Box 2 is tuned to 121.5 if things go wrong it is then a quick call MADAY to the ATC unit that I am working and then off to 121.5 D&D have the kit to locate you quickly and can get the rescue assets launched. Next tune your GPS to the page that gives the nearest VOR and broadcast the radial and distance as you are decending with repeated reports as you are about to hit the water, For security reasons most airliners are now listening to 121.5 so a very accrate ditching location will be receved by a number of aircraft.
You should have an ELT once in the liferaft switch this on and wait when you hear the helicopter deploy your sea marker dye and flairs, flairs are good for attracting boats but sea markers are on limmited use for location by boats.
If you are flying and you hear a ditching in progress near you try to get to the location and see if you can locate the ditched aircraft (if they have broadcast a radial & distance then you can put this into the GPS as a used waypiont and go to the location, an aircraft overhead will help the peope in the water, just knowing that help is on its way is a great moral booster and you will help the reacue services quickly locate the people in the water. once the rescur helicopter is visual with the people in the water go away, your job is done and the helicopter crew don't need disturbance on the radio when winching the people out of the water.
As has been said above the water is cold with life expectancy of one hour in the summer and only 10 Min in the winter.
Life jackets must be worn at all times when over the water there is simply not enough room to put them on when the engine stops.
A liferaft is also a must as said above this must be attached to the aircraft when deployed I have a seat belt attachment on my liferaft so the seat belt is released to enable escape from the aircraft I attach the liferaft to the seatbelt, this has the advantage that no sharp items are needed to launch the liferaft and release from the aircraft is easy.
Once in the liferaft half the problems with the cold are over and the problem of being located are about to start.
When ever I fly across the water Box 2 is tuned to 121.5 if things go wrong it is then a quick call MADAY to the ATC unit that I am working and then off to 121.5 D&D have the kit to locate you quickly and can get the rescue assets launched. Next tune your GPS to the page that gives the nearest VOR and broadcast the radial and distance as you are decending with repeated reports as you are about to hit the water, For security reasons most airliners are now listening to 121.5 so a very accrate ditching location will be receved by a number of aircraft.
You should have an ELT once in the liferaft switch this on and wait when you hear the helicopter deploy your sea marker dye and flairs, flairs are good for attracting boats but sea markers are on limmited use for location by boats.
If you are flying and you hear a ditching in progress near you try to get to the location and see if you can locate the ditched aircraft (if they have broadcast a radial & distance then you can put this into the GPS as a used waypiont and go to the location, an aircraft overhead will help the peope in the water, just knowing that help is on its way is a great moral booster and you will help the reacue services quickly locate the people in the water. once the rescur helicopter is visual with the people in the water go away, your job is done and the helicopter crew don't need disturbance on the radio when winching the people out of the water.
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Glad to help. Always like a bit of pot-stirring, but in this instance I'll try to be dispassionately practical!!
...............................................
"though I guess that is impractical for a pilot."
Not so. the standard recommendation is for the crew and passengers to wear life jackets. The key is NOT to inflate them until you have left the aircraft as they can prevent you getting out.
Good news, and good advice.
....................................................
"With the communications equipment in aircraft, I don't suppose they will be any doubt about your location"
Not necessarily so. All the aircraft comms are likely to fail the in the water. In the panic a pilot may not give out an accurate position and unfortunately many aircraft still do not carry a GPS which makes it impossible for them to give an accurate position.
The issue here, then, is to get found quickly. The PLB (personal locator beacon) is the best bet, though at £400 if you don't buy a GPS you are not likely to buy one of these. The advice from Miraz is good.
...............................................
"A liferaft is a practical solution"
The unresolved debate on this thread is whether you were better of with a liferaft or immersion / dry suit, and how practical each was as an airborn solution.
If you want to stir the pot you could give the RNLI's views! [/quote]
Even with a dayglo hood, searching vessels have a difficult job finding something the size of a melon in anything other than flat seas. Remember although the sea looks flat from above, it is quite textured, and small objects are visible only from time to time in any kind of a chop. Remember also, objects in the water get taken away from point of entry. We and the coastguard have clever computers that calculate the search pattern given time of incident, weather conditions, and type and drift charactaristics of the casualty. Enhanced visibility is what you should aim for, and any SAR pilot or cox'n will tell you they would rather be searching for a large orange liferaft than a small orange head. From the survival point of view it is a no-brainer, though I accept there are other considerations for a pilot. If nothing else orange smoke float flares are a good idea.
Peter
...............................................
"though I guess that is impractical for a pilot."
Not so. the standard recommendation is for the crew and passengers to wear life jackets. The key is NOT to inflate them until you have left the aircraft as they can prevent you getting out.
Good news, and good advice.
....................................................
"With the communications equipment in aircraft, I don't suppose they will be any doubt about your location"
Not necessarily so. All the aircraft comms are likely to fail the in the water. In the panic a pilot may not give out an accurate position and unfortunately many aircraft still do not carry a GPS which makes it impossible for them to give an accurate position.
The issue here, then, is to get found quickly. The PLB (personal locator beacon) is the best bet, though at £400 if you don't buy a GPS you are not likely to buy one of these. The advice from Miraz is good.
...............................................
"A liferaft is a practical solution"
The unresolved debate on this thread is whether you were better of with a liferaft or immersion / dry suit, and how practical each was as an airborn solution.
If you want to stir the pot you could give the RNLI's views!
[/quote]Even with a dayglo hood, searching vessels have a difficult job finding something the size of a melon in anything other than flat seas. Remember although the sea looks flat from above, it is quite textured, and small objects are visible only from time to time in any kind of a chop. Remember also, objects in the water get taken away from point of entry. We and the coastguard have clever computers that calculate the search pattern given time of incident, weather conditions, and type and drift charactaristics of the casualty. Enhanced visibility is what you should aim for, and any SAR pilot or cox'n will tell you they would rather be searching for a large orange liferaft than a small orange head. From the survival point of view it is a no-brainer, though I accept there are other considerations for a pilot. If nothing else orange smoke float flares are a good idea.
Peter
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"From the survival point of view it is a no-brainer, though I accept there are other considerations for a pilot."
Are you saying it is a no-brainer to carry a liferaft, or wear an immersion suit in terms of survivability as opposed to chances of being spotted?
Are you saying it is a no-brainer to carry a liferaft, or wear an immersion suit in terms of survivability as opposed to chances of being spotted?
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You may survive for ever in a suit, but not be found, though smokes and flares could help.
It has to be down to personal choice after evaluation of the risks, and practical considerations. Help us to help you as much as you can. We want to be able to find you quickly, and find you alive.
Having been on exercises both in a suit, and in a raft, in 'orrible conditions, the confidence drains very quickly when you are small, and all alone and low in the water. However, in a raft, with all the survival aids in the pack (a SOLAS 'A' pack has water, energy food, torch, flares, seasickness tablets etc etc, and, crucially, thermal protective aids (TPAs) which are like large polythene bags, but with good thermal insulating properties) you can be warm(er), and have means of signalling your position. So you will not die of exposure, and have a greater chance of being found.
My choice would be to go for the liferaft, every time.
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Re : 1 hour to Bleriot-Plage...
Where is the line of demarcation between English and French rescue services? FIR Boundary for aircraft or mid channel or what?
Does RNLI have views on efficiency of French services and what is the degree of co-operation and co-ordination between the two countries (especially when a broadcast MAYDAY on 121.5 is made?)
Dreadful thought if both French and UK services intercept the mayday call and then dither about who is going to respond!!
Where is the line of demarcation between English and French rescue services? FIR Boundary for aircraft or mid channel or what?
Does RNLI have views on efficiency of French services and what is the degree of co-operation and co-ordination between the two countries (especially when a broadcast MAYDAY on 121.5 is made?)
Dreadful thought if both French and UK services intercept the mayday call and then dither about who is going to respond!!
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Raft for me every time for reasons given by "chuns" .
Plus most "non-GA-type" passengers are absolutely not going to wear suits, and if you make them, they won't fly with you another time.
Plus for the cost of several suits you can buy a very nice raft.
Plus most "non-GA-type" passengers are absolutely not going to wear suits, and if you make them, they won't fly with you another time.
Plus for the cost of several suits you can buy a very nice raft.
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As an ex-boater I used to carry two very high spec 8 man liferafts, and to be honest typically only I and 1 or two others were strong enough to man handle them about.
For aircraft weight is very very important so we tend to use very simple liferafts - what in your opinion is the minimum liferaft items you think we should have to survive in the channel. ( also at what distance(time) from SAR do you think a survival suit should be worn if at all)
PS. This disussion has been about very short crossings but it is also not unusual to go direct(ish) out to the channel islands/cherbourg and potentially further afield across to holland and denmark.
For aircraft weight is very very important so we tend to use very simple liferafts - what in your opinion is the minimum liferaft items you think we should have to survive in the channel. ( also at what distance(time) from SAR do you think a survival suit should be worn if at all)
PS. This disussion has been about very short crossings but it is also not unusual to go direct(ish) out to the channel islands/cherbourg and potentially further afield across to holland and denmark.