Norwich and toothpaste
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There are a couple of points that the Einstein's who thought this one up might like to consider, prior to their, self congratulatory, CYA, safety audit meeting:
1. If an evil doer wishes to introduce forbidden material airside, they will do it after they land, having flown in from a strip, and not when returning to their aircraft.
2. Er, the Airport fence only goes round a third of the perimeter.
At best, all the £billions spent on airport security have done, is force a potential terrorist to spend 10 minutes going round the back and/or £10 on some wire cutters. At worst, the money wasted has reduced the resources available for useful security work to the extent that we are all much less safe.
Bright.
niknak
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Don't forget that the security staff are merely following very strict directives from the Government.
No matter how insane these orders may seem, or are, if they don't implement them, the airport can be prosecuted (and it wouldn't suprise me in the least if there's someone in the Dft just itching to make an example of someone somewhere), and the security bod will lose his job.
As far as landing fees at Norwich are concerned, yes they've gone up and its my opinion that it's complete insanity, but as I say that's just my opinion.
I do know that that the airport owners are negotiating with two resident companies to take over the GA handling completely, this means you'll taxy to the western end, park up and miss the joys of the terminal and associated troubles entirely (what you won't get is a 400 yard ride in a 40 seater bus).
I'd like to think that the fees would come down to a reasonable level, but I'd like to think a lot of things, I can only hope that the new handling agent recognises the value of GA as much as the rest of us.
Just one last thing, for all sorts of reasons, I find the use of the term "nazi" to describe someone who's just doing their job, regardless of who they are or your personal opinion of them, as incredibly offensive, kindly desist.
No matter how insane these orders may seem, or are, if they don't implement them, the airport can be prosecuted (and it wouldn't suprise me in the least if there's someone in the Dft just itching to make an example of someone somewhere), and the security bod will lose his job.
As far as landing fees at Norwich are concerned, yes they've gone up and its my opinion that it's complete insanity, but as I say that's just my opinion.
I do know that that the airport owners are negotiating with two resident companies to take over the GA handling completely, this means you'll taxy to the western end, park up and miss the joys of the terminal and associated troubles entirely (what you won't get is a 400 yard ride in a 40 seater bus).
I'd like to think that the fees would come down to a reasonable level, but I'd like to think a lot of things, I can only hope that the new handling agent recognises the value of GA as much as the rest of us.
Just one last thing, for all sorts of reasons, I find the use of the term "nazi" to describe someone who's just doing their job, regardless of who they are or your personal opinion of them, as incredibly offensive, kindly desist.
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Don't forget that the security staff are merely following very strict directives from the Government.
Do you have any sort of reference for that, niknak?
Do you have any sort of reference for that, niknak?
niknak
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Yes, I do.
Its contained within the Dft National Security Plan, updated regularly to those who need to know, (not for distribution to any rank lower than designated Airport Security Manager, so the ordinary staff who take all the flak are not aware of "why", they just are ordered to "do").
I'm sure if you ask nicely they'd be delighted to put you on the distribution list.
Its contained within the Dft National Security Plan, updated regularly to those who need to know, (not for distribution to any rank lower than designated Airport Security Manager, so the ordinary staff who take all the flak are not aware of "why", they just are ordered to "do").
I'm sure if you ask nicely they'd be delighted to put you on the distribution list.
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If you really want a laugh, park on one the nose in stand at Norwich Intergalactic Airport. Now order fuel. The fuel truck will drive from the fuel farm, past the tail of your aircraft, through the security gate and out of the aerodrome. He will then do a "U-Turn" and go up to one of our friends who mans the barrier he has just driven through. "Can I see your pass etc..." Said person will then check his pass, search his truck for liquids and other such non-allowable "non-solids" and allow 20 tons of Jet A1 back in to the "Inner Sanctum". Now you can have some fuel. Nice to see things done properly!
PM.
PM.
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DfT won't talk to BALPA
The security problems of late have had a devistating effect on all who fly airliners as the "security" changes from airport to airport and what is good for one place is not for another.
A year or so back I wrote a CHIRP on this issue high lighting the stress that not knowing what was going to be prohibited at the whim of the security operative.
The people at CHIRP seemed very interested in the situation but the report that I wrote was not published.
Roll on the latest security rules, I now find that the chances of my night stop kit being in the same place as myself are remote unless I spend about 40% of the time that I should be spend on the pre-flight planning chasing the crew bags and making sure that the bags are on the aircraft (in the hold).
My union BALPA knows about this and has been trying to work with the DfT but has been stonewalled each meeting and pilots are now treated as part of the problem with NO conssesions made for aircrew.
Some of the airports (BAA) have made reprisentations to relax the regulations for crew but this has also been rejected.
But it is interesting to note that the Musicians union has got the regulations changed very quickly to let them bring there musical instruments into the cabin, this can only be because of the bad PR that would have resulted from concerts being canceled because of "airport security".
The bottom line is that most aircrew who have to fly in and out of the UK think that the security mesures are a joke and that they are only in place to protect the civil servants at the DfT.
In by opinion the DfT are only interested in protecting themselfs and there jobs, have no real insight into how the industry works and won't work with BAPLA, the BAA and other industry reprsenatives because it will highlight how little they know about the business that they regulate.
Worst of all the DfT have in the eyes of those in the industry turned security into a bad joke that is a daly irritant to us, Security is a real and important issue that should be adressed by the aviation industry as a whole but insted the DfT seem to be happy with removing toothpase from the pilots and lipgloss from the cabin crew.
A year or so back I wrote a CHIRP on this issue high lighting the stress that not knowing what was going to be prohibited at the whim of the security operative.
The people at CHIRP seemed very interested in the situation but the report that I wrote was not published.
Roll on the latest security rules, I now find that the chances of my night stop kit being in the same place as myself are remote unless I spend about 40% of the time that I should be spend on the pre-flight planning chasing the crew bags and making sure that the bags are on the aircraft (in the hold).
My union BALPA knows about this and has been trying to work with the DfT but has been stonewalled each meeting and pilots are now treated as part of the problem with NO conssesions made for aircrew.
Some of the airports (BAA) have made reprisentations to relax the regulations for crew but this has also been rejected.
But it is interesting to note that the Musicians union has got the regulations changed very quickly to let them bring there musical instruments into the cabin, this can only be because of the bad PR that would have resulted from concerts being canceled because of "airport security".
The bottom line is that most aircrew who have to fly in and out of the UK think that the security mesures are a joke and that they are only in place to protect the civil servants at the DfT.
In by opinion the DfT are only interested in protecting themselfs and there jobs, have no real insight into how the industry works and won't work with BAPLA, the BAA and other industry reprsenatives because it will highlight how little they know about the business that they regulate.
Worst of all the DfT have in the eyes of those in the industry turned security into a bad joke that is a daly irritant to us, Security is a real and important issue that should be adressed by the aviation industry as a whole but insted the DfT seem to be happy with removing toothpase from the pilots and lipgloss from the cabin crew.
"Dft National Security Plan"
DfT National Socialist Plan, more like.
"Befehl ist Befehl!"
Just back from 8 trips areound Europe with LH. Only the UK has such absurd rules, travel between Schengen countries is so much simpler. Madrid-Frankfurt-Bremen required the sort of check we used to have before the 'liquid explosives' nonsense...and that was it. Just gate-to-gate at Frankfurt, no additional sicherheitsdienst groping.
Whereas Birmingham-Frankfurt-Bremen requires belt, shoes, watch, computer etc etc to be removed at BHX.... At FRA you are 'non-Schengen Untermensch. Verdammte Ausländer!' - so it's on to the bus (I hate to think where they learned how to pack so many people into those damn buses) and a magical mystery tour of the nether regions of the airport. Then up an escalator, through passport control, down another escalator, through another security check, down in a lift, along the time tunnel, up in another lift......
If only we had basic national identity cards (not the excessive things Trust-me-Tone wants us to pay £100 for.....) and were part of the Schengen community, we wouldn't have all this nonsense.
Let's have intelligent profiling and some realistic security checks!
DfT National Socialist Plan, more like.
"Befehl ist Befehl!"
Just back from 8 trips areound Europe with LH. Only the UK has such absurd rules, travel between Schengen countries is so much simpler. Madrid-Frankfurt-Bremen required the sort of check we used to have before the 'liquid explosives' nonsense...and that was it. Just gate-to-gate at Frankfurt, no additional sicherheitsdienst groping.
Whereas Birmingham-Frankfurt-Bremen requires belt, shoes, watch, computer etc etc to be removed at BHX.... At FRA you are 'non-Schengen Untermensch. Verdammte Ausländer!' - so it's on to the bus (I hate to think where they learned how to pack so many people into those damn buses) and a magical mystery tour of the nether regions of the airport. Then up an escalator, through passport control, down another escalator, through another security check, down in a lift, along the time tunnel, up in another lift......
If only we had basic national identity cards (not the excessive things Trust-me-Tone wants us to pay £100 for.....) and were part of the Schengen community, we wouldn't have all this nonsense.
Let's have intelligent profiling and some realistic security checks!
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My 2p.....
Security staff at Norwich International (don't you just know it's going to be a poxy regional airport when they feel the need to add 'International' to their title by the way, Heathrow International, Gatwick International anyone?!) have always been very pleasant, courteous and down to earth whenever I've flown out from there, which given their paltry wages must be an effort. However, as a wider issue these 'security' measures really p#ss me off these days. Last month flew out of Gatwick and the queues were immense and I was totally not in the mood for adopting the 'good 'ol British public Dunkirk spirit' crap which they were obviously relying on. My loud comment of 'I'm soooo glad we are winning the war on terror' was NOT appreciated as I tasted my baby sons nappy cream after being herded for ages through security and having deodorants binned which I bought again 5 minutes later. This week flew to Zurich from LCY with just hand baggage. Took no deodorant, hair gel or toothpaste as knew it would get taken from me, but the LCY website implied I could buy new products once I was through security. Through security - no toothpaste, only hair gel was some poncey small tube for £13, and only deodorant was small tin of Hugo Boss stuff for another £13!
So, £26 lighter for what I can get from Boots for a fiver, and in a bad mood, I board plane. Next day on way back through security at Zurich confiscate my tiny but relatively highly expensive Hugo Boss deodorant (which I managed to use just once), because 'it's too big to take through'. Security seemed surprised that again I was a tad miffed by this. All this for a security alert that ended with the supposed perpetrators released without charge. Don't get me wrong, I know we have to be careful (primarily thanks to our own dense meddling in other peoples countries), but for Christs sake, as a trained aviation security adviser said at the time of the first panic measures 'I could look at any check-in queue at any time and instantly judge that 95% of them pose no threat whatsoever', instead EVERY single person get's targeted - is that intelligence led security?
--- waits to be shot down in flames now....(no pun intended) ...for my bad attitude!
I just hate losing civil liberty bit by bit in the name of keeping our 'freedom', seems to me the terrorists have substantially won!
Security staff at Norwich International (don't you just know it's going to be a poxy regional airport when they feel the need to add 'International' to their title by the way, Heathrow International, Gatwick International anyone?!) have always been very pleasant, courteous and down to earth whenever I've flown out from there, which given their paltry wages must be an effort. However, as a wider issue these 'security' measures really p#ss me off these days. Last month flew out of Gatwick and the queues were immense and I was totally not in the mood for adopting the 'good 'ol British public Dunkirk spirit' crap which they were obviously relying on. My loud comment of 'I'm soooo glad we are winning the war on terror' was NOT appreciated as I tasted my baby sons nappy cream after being herded for ages through security and having deodorants binned which I bought again 5 minutes later. This week flew to Zurich from LCY with just hand baggage. Took no deodorant, hair gel or toothpaste as knew it would get taken from me, but the LCY website implied I could buy new products once I was through security. Through security - no toothpaste, only hair gel was some poncey small tube for £13, and only deodorant was small tin of Hugo Boss stuff for another £13!
So, £26 lighter for what I can get from Boots for a fiver, and in a bad mood, I board plane. Next day on way back through security at Zurich confiscate my tiny but relatively highly expensive Hugo Boss deodorant (which I managed to use just once), because 'it's too big to take through'. Security seemed surprised that again I was a tad miffed by this. All this for a security alert that ended with the supposed perpetrators released without charge. Don't get me wrong, I know we have to be careful (primarily thanks to our own dense meddling in other peoples countries), but for Christs sake, as a trained aviation security adviser said at the time of the first panic measures 'I could look at any check-in queue at any time and instantly judge that 95% of them pose no threat whatsoever', instead EVERY single person get's targeted - is that intelligence led security? --- waits to be shot down in flames now....(no pun intended) ...for my bad attitude!
I just hate losing civil liberty bit by bit in the name of keeping our 'freedom', seems to me the terrorists have substantially won!
Last edited by h73kr; 10th Nov 2006 at 23:39. Reason: poor spelling!
Hovering AND talking
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The problem with Norwich is that they don't understand the concept of private flights.
Last summer I had the pleasure of flying with Grainger in a Jetranger from Norwich. His helicopter, his passenger.
"Can I see your boarding pass please madam! (Sadly I am no longer of an age where I get called "Miss"). "I don't have one, it's a private flight". "Can't go through without a boarding pass". "It's a private flight" etc etc.
So for anyone coming into Norwich, try to get Sterling to carry out the handling - it'll be much more simple!
Cheers
Whirls
Last summer I had the pleasure of flying with Grainger in a Jetranger from Norwich. His helicopter, his passenger.
"Can I see your boarding pass please madam! (Sadly I am no longer of an age where I get called "Miss"). "I don't have one, it's a private flight". "Can't go through without a boarding pass". "It's a private flight" etc etc.
So for anyone coming into Norwich, try to get Sterling to carry out the handling - it'll be much more simple!
Cheers
Whirls
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niknak
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The problem with Norwich is that they don't understand the concept of private flights.
Last summer I had the pleasure of flying with Grainger in a Jetranger from Norwich. His helicopter, his passenger.
"Can I see your boarding pass please madam! (Sadly I am no longer of an age where I get called "Miss"). "I don't have one, it's a private flight". "Can't go through without a boarding pass". "It's a private flight" etc etc.
So for anyone coming into Norwich, try to get Sterling to carry out the handling - it'll be much more simple!
Cheers
Whirls
Last summer I had the pleasure of flying with Grainger in a Jetranger from Norwich. His helicopter, his passenger.
"Can I see your boarding pass please madam! (Sadly I am no longer of an age where I get called "Miss"). "I don't have one, it's a private flight". "Can't go through without a boarding pass". "It's a private flight" etc etc.
So for anyone coming into Norwich, try to get Sterling to carry out the handling - it'll be much more simple!
Cheers
Whirls
I've no reason to suspect that the service offered by Sterling isn't just as professional, but I know for a fact that they don't have full dining facilities - if the two establishments could work together it would be a plus for G/A.
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So, Niknak, what does all this CIA-secret-agent-speak mean? Next time I fly to Norwich, do I "request taxi to Hangar 10" or do I have to be more specific?
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Excellent posting by A&C in respect of the security problems we, who earn a living by flying, face everytime we go to work.
The basic requirements of airport security are a 'no argument' discussion but there are big variations between airports throughout the UK and the applications of security measures at a local level vary immensely.
A few views of my own (biased towards BAA at Gatwick)-
Why are aircrew given a considerably harder time going through security than pax? We know you have been told to 'concentrate' on us - but why?
Excellent cartoon in the Telegraph a few weeks ago with the wife searching the husband as he comes through the door and a guilty looking moggy next to them. Wife saying to husband - "Well somebody has been bringing dead birds into the house but it seems a bit unfair to pick on the cat"!
Why do I have to take my shoes off, walk through security, go to pick up my shoes and flightbag then be told to take off my jacket, return through the scanner and walk through it again (still minus shoes)? Why do I have to take my jacket off but not my trousers (I was tempted)? Is there something that can be hidden in a jacket but not in the trousers I am still wearing? Are you really trying to wind people up or just ignorant?
When I ask why BAA security staff are allowed to walk from the coffee shop, walk around the scanner, place said coffee on a table airside without being security checked then I am told this doesn't happen. Sorry mate, witnessed this a few days ago. Who is the biggest security risk?
Etc, etc.
Local variations on a big scale and is totally unacceptable. 'Make it up as you go along security' with no ability to question the farcical rules. Keeps the politicians happy though and they all think they are doing a great job.
Rant over.
The basic requirements of airport security are a 'no argument' discussion but there are big variations between airports throughout the UK and the applications of security measures at a local level vary immensely.
A few views of my own (biased towards BAA at Gatwick)-
Why are aircrew given a considerably harder time going through security than pax? We know you have been told to 'concentrate' on us - but why?
Excellent cartoon in the Telegraph a few weeks ago with the wife searching the husband as he comes through the door and a guilty looking moggy next to them. Wife saying to husband - "Well somebody has been bringing dead birds into the house but it seems a bit unfair to pick on the cat"!
Why do I have to take my shoes off, walk through security, go to pick up my shoes and flightbag then be told to take off my jacket, return through the scanner and walk through it again (still minus shoes)? Why do I have to take my jacket off but not my trousers (I was tempted)? Is there something that can be hidden in a jacket but not in the trousers I am still wearing? Are you really trying to wind people up or just ignorant?
When I ask why BAA security staff are allowed to walk from the coffee shop, walk around the scanner, place said coffee on a table airside without being security checked then I am told this doesn't happen. Sorry mate, witnessed this a few days ago. Who is the biggest security risk?
Etc, etc.
Local variations on a big scale and is totally unacceptable. 'Make it up as you go along security' with no ability to question the farcical rules. Keeps the politicians happy though and they all think they are doing a great job.
Rant over.
Hovering AND talking
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For those who don't know, and Whirly is clearly amongst those
The restaurant facilities at Autopilot (I think it's just changed its name to something else!) are open to anyone.
Cheers
Whirls
