does cross channel check count as PIUS?
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However, it does not list the case where a qualified pilot flies with an instructor, when not receiving any additional instruction.
That doesn't mean in can't be logged. It just means that LASORS doesn't tell you how to log it. So it's up to you to use your common sense.
Common sense suggests that PICUS sounds like the most logical way of logging the time, but PUT also sounds like it might be correct.
That doesn't mean in can't be logged. It just means that LASORS doesn't tell you how to log it. So it's up to you to use your common sense.
Common sense suggests that PICUS sounds like the most logical way of logging the time, but PUT also sounds like it might be correct.
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If he is a qualifed pilot not receiving any instruction then common sense would say P1, not PUS, not PUT. There is NO instruction taking place.
However, I would say it is instruction because the instructor is technically doing a refresher course and is being paid for his time. What the school is saying is the student has already got the licence but doesn’t know how to exercise the privileges properly so needs extra training before they will allow him/her to cross the channel in their aircraft.
Only in the UK!
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But I can almost guarantee the instructor logged it as P1 so the other pilot can't.
If no instruction is taking place and they are there as a requirement for the 1st XC of a qualified pilot hiring from a club then the FI is in effect filling the capacity of a safety pilot and therefore SNY.
As you said, only in the UK!
Moving On
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As I said if the school specifically require you to do this then it should be detailed in their flying order book/operations manual. In which case the only sensible thing for them to do is to make it a requirement that a pilot completes a dual channel crossing therefore making it PU/T. Unfortunately unless the CAA issue some new specific guidleines this argument is going to go on ad infinitum (check the search there are countless threads like this). As far as i can see it is simply a case of who was P1, if the instructor was then you log it dual, if the instructor wasn't you log it P1 and they cannot log it.
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If it is a "club" and not a school, they should act like a "club".
A decent club would arrange a fly out to someplace like Le Touquet and place experienced members with new members who have never crossed the channel. One member fly’s there, one fly’s back. The new member gets the experience while the other pilot gets to share costs. This promotes both a cost reduction, a chance to meet and fly with new people, utilisation of aircraft and most importantly FUN!!! (It would also do away with this daft "Can I log the hours for a none existent flight check" thread). Isn’t that the whole point of a club?
I have seen it done like this but sadly it seems not to be the norm in the UK....and people wonder why GA is dying over here.
A decent club would arrange a fly out to someplace like Le Touquet and place experienced members with new members who have never crossed the channel. One member fly’s there, one fly’s back. The new member gets the experience while the other pilot gets to share costs. This promotes both a cost reduction, a chance to meet and fly with new people, utilisation of aircraft and most importantly FUN!!! (It would also do away with this daft "Can I log the hours for a none existent flight check" thread). Isn’t that the whole point of a club?
I have seen it done like this but sadly it seems not to be the norm in the UK....and people wonder why GA is dying over here.
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Originally Posted by Julian
If no instruction is taking place
. You could argue that as you have paid to cart an instructor along with you, then you are receiving instruction, irrespective of whether they do. It simply comes down to who signs for the aircraft. If you sign it out, then you are P1 and the instructor is SNY. If the instructor signs is out, you are PUT and the instructor logs it as P1. There is no such thing as P1S outside of a multi crew or skills test.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Originally Posted by Julian
If he is a qualifed pilot not receiving any instruction then common sense would say P1, not PUS, not PUT. There is NO instruction taking place.
Personally, I make sure that any time I am hired through my employer to fly with someone, I log P1, whatever the circumstances. If I am at work, then I am acting as an instructor. If you don't want an instructor as Captain, then you don't have to fly with me - but don't be offended if my employer doesn't let you hire our aircraft. This is quite aside from the legal aspect, which I have repeated on these forums many times - it is important to me that I am Captain, because if I am not Captain I have no legal right to take over the controls from you if you screw up.
On the other hand, if a friend phones me and asks if I want to go flying on my day off, then he is probably going to be logging P1, and I am a passenger.
FFF
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Julian
Did you read my post?
I didn't say the PPL limited the navigation. The point I was making is that DR backed by visual navigation is the only type examined on the PPL skills test. My x-channel check develops that, using DR backed by radio nav one way, radio tracking the other.
I was not saying that gliding range is the reason.
I also never said that it was written down anywhere that a x-channel check is required by any CAA rule. In fact if it was you would be able to log it P1S!
You cannot just invert the question, it makes no sense to answer my point! The point I was making was that clubs I have worked at would require a cross-water check before a flight well away from land, and the Isle of Man would probably count as Ireland certainly would (Fouga was suggesting that Isle of Man trips might not need a check). A previous cross channel check would be sufficient. It is only known as a "cross-channel check" because this is by far the most common situation, not because it is the only situation.
However it is written down somewhere. It is in many clubs' flying orders, which you must read and should comply with, or you risk a hefty bill from the insurance company if anything goes wrong. You are hiring something that belongs to someone else. If you don't like the conditions of hire then buy your own!
I also said that if it is flown with an instructor (the club might accept an experienced member or club official/director instead) and the instructor logs it then you can't log it P1! I agree that there is nothing to say that the instructor must log it, but that will depend on the agreement between the pilot wanting to fly and the club or the instructor. The fact remains that any time cannot be logged as P1 by both pilots.
These discussions would be an awful lot shorter if you read the post you wanted to reply to!
I hope you make sure there is instruction taking place any time you fly with an instructor. Or do you know everything there is to know about flying light aircraft already, and are you current with practicing all of it? I'm with Gus on this one.
FFF
LASORs might not say it, but it says elsewhere that P1S (PICUS as you put it) can only be used for flying in multicrew aircraft or on a CAA skills test. There might be an exception if the aircraft is used on an AOC in a situation where the Ops Manual requires multi-crew (such as operating without autopilot under IFR) but I'm not sure and that isn't the case here. You cannot have two people log P1 on a single-crew aircraft for the same hours except a flight test.
I agree with your logic, but the CAA does not.
Did you read my post?
I didn't say the PPL limited the navigation. The point I was making is that DR backed by visual navigation is the only type examined on the PPL skills test. My x-channel check develops that, using DR backed by radio nav one way, radio tracking the other.
I was not saying that gliding range is the reason.
I also never said that it was written down anywhere that a x-channel check is required by any CAA rule. In fact if it was you would be able to log it P1S!
You cannot just invert the question, it makes no sense to answer my point! The point I was making was that clubs I have worked at would require a cross-water check before a flight well away from land, and the Isle of Man would probably count as Ireland certainly would (Fouga was suggesting that Isle of Man trips might not need a check). A previous cross channel check would be sufficient. It is only known as a "cross-channel check" because this is by far the most common situation, not because it is the only situation.
However it is written down somewhere. It is in many clubs' flying orders, which you must read and should comply with, or you risk a hefty bill from the insurance company if anything goes wrong. You are hiring something that belongs to someone else. If you don't like the conditions of hire then buy your own!
I also said that if it is flown with an instructor (the club might accept an experienced member or club official/director instead) and the instructor logs it then you can't log it P1! I agree that there is nothing to say that the instructor must log it, but that will depend on the agreement between the pilot wanting to fly and the club or the instructor. The fact remains that any time cannot be logged as P1 by both pilots.
These discussions would be an awful lot shorter if you read the post you wanted to reply to!
I hope you make sure there is instruction taking place any time you fly with an instructor. Or do you know everything there is to know about flying light aircraft already, and are you current with practicing all of it? I'm with Gus on this one.
FFF
LASORs might not say it, but it says elsewhere that P1S (PICUS as you put it) can only be used for flying in multicrew aircraft or on a CAA skills test. There might be an exception if the aircraft is used on an AOC in a situation where the Ops Manual requires multi-crew (such as operating without autopilot under IFR) but I'm not sure and that isn't the case here. You cannot have two people log P1 on a single-crew aircraft for the same hours except a flight test.
I agree with your logic, but the CAA does not.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Tuned In,
Do you know where this is written?
It won't make any difference to me, since I've always logged time when I've flown with instructors as PUT. I've also always recommended to other people when they fly with me in my instructional capacity (or any other instructor) that they log PUT, but if I knew where it was written, I could back up my argument far better. As it is, though, I haven't been able to find it written down anywhere official.
FFF
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LASORs might not say it, but it says elsewhere that P1S (PICUS as you put it) can only be used for flying in multicrew aircraft or on a CAA skills test
It won't make any difference to me, since I've always logged time when I've flown with instructors as PUT. I've also always recommended to other people when they fly with me in my instructional capacity (or any other instructor) that they log PUT, but if I knew where it was written, I could back up my argument far better. As it is, though, I haven't been able to find it written down anywhere official.
FFF
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Can't give you the reference at the moment, I'm afraid - my reminder is in the instructions printed in the front of my logbook. Don't have easy access to the official references. I did think it was in LASORs, but I haven't even used that for a while.
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Tuned,
Interesting. I was examined on VOR tracking as part of my PPL skills test. Radio nav was covered as part of the course syllabus. We have also already said the you can see France anway and not out of sight of ground features. Previous XC checks do not seem to count, in my experience at least, in that another club I have used wanted you to do with their instructor never mind having already done one recently with another school.
I think you also missed my point re 'inverting' your question. It is not a requirement to go XC channel to have a checkout - apart from a schools flying order book - a point which we have already acknowledged and stated that it would be different in as group scenario where only a group member would be required. As you say, not stipulated by the CAA. So you as you say yourself:
Thanks for your advice but have already done this. Not for this reason but got fed up for paying high sums of money for quite frankly delapidated aircraft with half the bits missing out of the panel.
No I dont and there is no reason to do so just because an instructor is sat next to you. No i dont know everything and in fact put myself through a full IPC every year even when, legally, I dont need one. You should always know your personal limitations. I wont execute a priveledge of my licence if I dont feel confident never mind current and at that point I will use either an instructor or a safety pilot dependant on the situation.
I didn't say the PPL limited the navigation. The point I was making is that DR backed by visual navigation is the only type examined on the PPL skills test.
I think you also missed my point re 'inverting' your question. It is not a requirement to go XC channel to have a checkout - apart from a schools flying order book - a point which we have already acknowledged and stated that it would be different in as group scenario where only a group member would be required. As you say, not stipulated by the CAA. So you as you say yourself:
These discussions would be an awful lot shorter if you read the post you wanted to reply to!
If you don't like the conditions of hire then buy your own!
I hope you make sure there is instruction taking place any time you fly with an instructor. Or do you know everything there is to know about flying light aircraft already, and are you current with practicing all of it? I'm with Gus on this one.
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Just got my licence from the caa it apperas they accepted my cross channel check as P1 as they've just sent me my shinning blue licence. Sorry for all the argument this caused. Good luck to those of you currently training.
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FougaMagister wrote:
Since the VMC minima for a PPL is 3 km viz it is in fact poosible to be out of sight of 'land' for some 25km. I beleive a low hour PPL would find it tricky to fly cross chanel with no land features and possible no visible horizon, yet still be legal VMC.
Personally, as an instructor, if I am flying with a person who is paying me, I am P1, otherwise I may as well not be there.
As has been mentioned, in VMC, one can see the French coast long before reaching mid-Channel, so dead-reckoning isn't too difficult -
Personally, as an instructor, if I am flying with a person who is paying me, I am P1, otherwise I may as well not be there.
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Julian
Radio navigation is required in training but it is not necessarily examined skills test. It is possible to test in an aircraft with no functioning navigation aids!
How can you see France from the UK? You clearly haven't been to the Channel Islands from the Bembridge VFR - at 3000 feet to remain clear of the airway. Or to Deauville from Shoreham. Or to Cherbourg in the VFR recommended route through the danger area. Or been refused clearance through said route, so had to navigate around it. Or to Brest from Plymouth.
I think it is you that failed to make any relevant point trying to invert my question. No-one has said that it is written anywhere other than local flying orders that a x-channel check is required. That is not the point at issue. Nor does it mean it is not a sensible requirement, which is the point at issue. It also doesn't mean that a qualified pilot shouldn't learn something useful from the trip.
I personally would have signed you off x-channel if you had checked out with another club, with one or two exceptions. On the other hand one of the clubs I worked at wouldn't let me fly x-channel without a checkout, even though I was checking out members of another club. When I'd done about 5 they then allowed me.
nuclear
They don't check very carefully. Technically you have logged it incorrectly, but even if they noticed they would only tell you to correct the small error, you wouldn't get into trouble. However major "errors" have got pilots into trouble, so I would always recommend you fill out the logbook carefully and correctly in future.
Radio navigation is required in training but it is not necessarily examined skills test. It is possible to test in an aircraft with no functioning navigation aids!
How can you see France from the UK? You clearly haven't been to the Channel Islands from the Bembridge VFR - at 3000 feet to remain clear of the airway. Or to Deauville from Shoreham. Or to Cherbourg in the VFR recommended route through the danger area. Or been refused clearance through said route, so had to navigate around it. Or to Brest from Plymouth.
I think it is you that failed to make any relevant point trying to invert my question. No-one has said that it is written anywhere other than local flying orders that a x-channel check is required. That is not the point at issue. Nor does it mean it is not a sensible requirement, which is the point at issue. It also doesn't mean that a qualified pilot shouldn't learn something useful from the trip.
I personally would have signed you off x-channel if you had checked out with another club, with one or two exceptions. On the other hand one of the clubs I worked at wouldn't let me fly x-channel without a checkout, even though I was checking out members of another club. When I'd done about 5 they then allowed me.
nuclear
They don't check very carefully. Technically you have logged it incorrectly, but even if they noticed they would only tell you to correct the small error, you wouldn't get into trouble. However major "errors" have got pilots into trouble, so I would always recommend you fill out the logbook carefully and correctly in future.
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How can you see France from the UK? You clearly haven't been to the Channel Islands from the Bembridge VFR - at 3000 feet to remain clear of the airway. Or to Deauville from Shoreham. Or to Cherbourg in the VFR recommended route through the danger area. Or been refused clearance through said route, so had to navigate around it. Or to Brest from Plymouth.
No-one has said that it is written anywhere other than local flying orders that a x-channel check is required.
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But you have done nothing to try and say it is not justified! No-one ever said it was more than a club (or duty-of-care, or insurance) requirement. The argument was whether it was a justified requirement.