does cross channel check count as PIUS?
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At the end of the day if a club wants you to have a checkout for crossing the briney then it is up to them. However we moan and winge about it the final say on who rents a clubs aircraft is the club and if they have rules you have to follow them or find a new club.
I do however think the enforced club checkout is the biggest con on earth, totally reprehensible and should be banned. If a pilot lacks confidence to do what has to be the simplest thing around then they should ask for support not have it foisted on them.
As for the Instructor logging it as P1, that is also disgusting and people like FFF can come up with as many excuses as the want on why they should be P1 but it still stinks.
I went to LFAT on my own a week after getting my licence. It's not rocket science.
I do however think the enforced club checkout is the biggest con on earth, totally reprehensible and should be banned. If a pilot lacks confidence to do what has to be the simplest thing around then they should ask for support not have it foisted on them.
As for the Instructor logging it as P1, that is also disgusting and people like FFF can come up with as many excuses as the want on why they should be P1 but it still stinks.
I went to LFAT on my own a week after getting my licence. It's not rocket science.
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I'm very much with Bose on this one!
My first trip after getting my licence was through the low level corridor into Grand Central from Swaziland. Had not done it before, asked for advice, planned the route, asked an experienced mate to check it was okay. Climbed into the aeroplane and 3 hours later had a cold Castle in Jo'burg.
If you lack the confidence then your training is amiss. Knowledge dispels fear.
Stik
My first trip after getting my licence was through the low level corridor into Grand Central from Swaziland. Had not done it before, asked for advice, planned the route, asked an experienced mate to check it was okay. Climbed into the aeroplane and 3 hours later had a cold Castle in Jo'burg.
If you lack the confidence then your training is amiss. Knowledge dispels fear.
Stik
Last edited by stiknruda; 6th Sep 2006 at 17:54. Reason: to make my English look less like Afrikaans
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If you lack the confidence then your training is amiss. Knowledge dispels fear.
Knowledge is theory, doing it is experience. Experience dispells inappropriate fear (and reinforces justified fear!).
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HWD - I never said I wasn't sh!tting myself! They said, you can do it, we believe that you can do it, if we didn't we'd not be LENDING you our aeroplane. Now get and go before we change our minds!
Oh I was nervous and both Swazi radar and RSA radar (Lowveld) asked me for estimates to positions that weren't on my chart and I probably made a Horlicks of the RT, but at the end of the day I got myself and the 172 to a different country and swapped my sister for a puppy, all without GPS. An exchange I'll never regret!
It all boils down to good decision making skills, being instilled early in training, I guess.
Oh I was nervous and both Swazi radar and RSA radar (Lowveld) asked me for estimates to positions that weren't on my chart and I probably made a Horlicks of the RT, but at the end of the day I got myself and the 172 to a different country and swapped my sister for a puppy, all without GPS. An exchange I'll never regret!
It all boils down to good decision making skills, being instilled early in training, I guess.
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Just before applying for my license I want to make sure I have the correct P1 hours. I did a cross channel check to Le touquet with an instructor on a 172. I was already checked out on the aircraft and also had my ppl license.
Did you have your licence in your sticky mits or did you mean that you had past the flight tests and had the stuff ready to apply for the licence?
Unless you have your licence issued you can not log P1.
If you have your licence and you take an instructor then either the instructor or you can log P1, depending on the inclination of the instructor.
Since it was a club checkout I reckon that your instructor would have logged that as P1, most would.
That leaves PUT for you.
I doubt that the CAA would have advised that you could log this as P1S, as that is only applicable to successful flight tests, that is unless you spoke to the tea lady.
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I think the arguments are far too polarized in favour and against cross channel checks.
In good conditions the vast majority of new PPLs will cope well. In poor conditions many will struggle. In spite of the training flying on instruments for 30 minutes or more can be disconcerting. Moreover, it is not just the cross channel aspect but how many pilots are actually shown how to file a flight plan or what to expect when dealing with French air traffic. This means that the more confident new PPL will cope albeit find the experience a new challenge. The less confident will find the experience disconcerting, and would have been happy to have had along an instructor or more experienced pilot the first time. Of course this is where a good club and good instructors will know their students and will suggest with some x students they might benefit from being accompanied. In short there is no right or wrong answer.
A point that hasn’t been made is that when accompanied whatever the debate about how to log the flight what should have been clear before the flight even started is the relationship between the crew. Who is in command? Is the pilot under training? At the very least the instructor should make this absolutely clear.
An earlier post passed comment that it is not rocket science and all will be well so long as you have life jackets. I have to disagree. Do not kid yourself life jackets are of very little value. For most of the year in the very unlikely event you come down on the sea in the channel with only a life jacket there is a very good chance you will die of hypothermia before you are rescued. The risk assessment is yours of the likelihood of an engine failure but if you don’t like the answer life jackets are not the solution - invest in a life raft!
In good conditions the vast majority of new PPLs will cope well. In poor conditions many will struggle. In spite of the training flying on instruments for 30 minutes or more can be disconcerting. Moreover, it is not just the cross channel aspect but how many pilots are actually shown how to file a flight plan or what to expect when dealing with French air traffic. This means that the more confident new PPL will cope albeit find the experience a new challenge. The less confident will find the experience disconcerting, and would have been happy to have had along an instructor or more experienced pilot the first time. Of course this is where a good club and good instructors will know their students and will suggest with some x students they might benefit from being accompanied. In short there is no right or wrong answer.
A point that hasn’t been made is that when accompanied whatever the debate about how to log the flight what should have been clear before the flight even started is the relationship between the crew. Who is in command? Is the pilot under training? At the very least the instructor should make this absolutely clear.
An earlier post passed comment that it is not rocket science and all will be well so long as you have life jackets. I have to disagree. Do not kid yourself life jackets are of very little value. For most of the year in the very unlikely event you come down on the sea in the channel with only a life jacket there is a very good chance you will die of hypothermia before you are rescued. The risk assessment is yours of the likelihood of an engine failure but if you don’t like the answer life jackets are not the solution - invest in a life raft!
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Fuji,
Thread creep warning!
You make many valid points, perhaps sending someone off with a more experienced PPL might sort out the x-channel thing.
The liferaft is of course excellent advice but many of us do that risk assessment and skoosh over sometime at low level to remain VMC as our aircraft have no capacity for the dinghy!
The Irish Sea , I always find more daunting than the Channel.
Stik
Thread creep warning!
You make many valid points, perhaps sending someone off with a more experienced PPL might sort out the x-channel thing.
The liferaft is of course excellent advice but many of us do that risk assessment and skoosh over sometime at low level to remain VMC as our aircraft have no capacity for the dinghy!
The Irish Sea , I always find more daunting than the Channel.
Stik
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Er FD, read his post....... He has a little folder the same colour as the one I got recently and I did a lot of P1 logging before I got it. 
Nuclear,
Did you have your licence in your sticky mits or did you mean that you had past the flight tests and had the stuff ready to apply for the licence?
Unless you have your licence issued you can not log P1.
If you have your licence and you take an instructor then either the instructor or you can log P1, depending on the inclination of the instructor.
Since it was a club checkout I reckon that your instructor would have logged that as P1, most would.
That leaves PUT for you.
I doubt that the CAA would have advised that you could log this as P1S, as that is only applicable to successful flight tests, that is unless you spoke to the tea lady.
Did you have your licence in your sticky mits or did you mean that you had past the flight tests and had the stuff ready to apply for the licence?
Unless you have your licence issued you can not log P1.
If you have your licence and you take an instructor then either the instructor or you can log P1, depending on the inclination of the instructor.
Since it was a club checkout I reckon that your instructor would have logged that as P1, most would.
That leaves PUT for you.
I doubt that the CAA would have advised that you could log this as P1S, as that is only applicable to successful flight tests, that is unless you spoke to the tea lady.
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Just before applying formy license I want to make sure I have the correct P1 hours. I did a cross channel check to Le touquet with an instructor on a 172. I was already checked out on the aircraft and also had my ppl license.
Unless you intimate that this chap already had a PPL and was checking P1 before applying for his CPL issue.
I take it that he was talking about PPL all the way through as I doubt that anyone applying for a CPL will need hand holding on a X-channel checkout.
Or do you think that newly minted CPLs require that sort of assistance?
Only asking.......
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Just before applying for my license I want to make sure I have the correct P1 hours. I did a cross channel check to Le touquet with an instructor on a 172. I was already checked out on the aircraft and also had my ppl license. He only came along as it was the policy of my school if you are going for the first time. I want to know if this counts as Pilot in command under supervision as I flew the aircraft and planned it and I was not beign taught how to fly.
Also do the caa go through every single trip you log to add it up or they just go with the school stamps on your log book as I did 90% of my hour building and training at a uk school and have a couple of stamps verifying my hours.
Also do the caa go through every single trip you log to add it up or they just go with the school stamps on your log book as I did 90% of my hour building and training at a uk school and have a couple of stamps verifying my hours.
Want to play that game eh Frank? Read before you open your gob.......
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You know me uncouth.........
But it's fine darling, appology accepted....... :P
Agreed why does a CPL candidate need a cross channel checkout, just goes back to my point about it being criminal!
If a pilot is nervous about making the crossing then it is first class airmanship to seek assistance in the planning and execution of the flight. To have it forced on you is criminal and to have it forced on you as a "training" flight is just immoral.
If the school are that concerned that the pilot will damage the aircraft or themself crossing the channel that an Instructor has to be there then I would suggest the pilot is not ready for solo.
As for the excuses about the Instructor being P1 so he can legally take over in a problem - what a load of complete and utter tosh. P1 is handed over in flight all the time. If the instructor is that concerned that he will have to do that then comment above applies.
But it's fine darling, appology accepted....... :PAgreed why does a CPL candidate need a cross channel checkout, just goes back to my point about it being criminal!
If a pilot is nervous about making the crossing then it is first class airmanship to seek assistance in the planning and execution of the flight. To have it forced on you is criminal and to have it forced on you as a "training" flight is just immoral.
If the school are that concerned that the pilot will damage the aircraft or themself crossing the channel that an Instructor has to be there then I would suggest the pilot is not ready for solo.
As for the excuses about the Instructor being P1 so he can legally take over in a problem - what a load of complete and utter tosh. P1 is handed over in flight all the time. If the instructor is that concerned that he will have to do that then comment above applies.
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Not sure why you take exception to it. At the end of the day it is a fact!
I realise that most instructors are mega beings but I am pretty certain that even they cant keep a Cessna in the air after the donkey dies......
As far as the paperwork stuff is concered if you could fill in your PPL application form then you can fill in a gen dec and a flight plan....
I realise that most instructors are mega beings but I am pretty certain that even they cant keep a Cessna in the air after the donkey dies......
As far as the paperwork stuff is concered if you could fill in your PPL application form then you can fill in a gen dec and a flight plan....
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I don't see the problem here with deciding how to log the time. Regardless of the morality of a flying club/school insisting on these 'check out' flights, you can be guaranteed that unless it's agreed up front the instructor will log P1 for his time. We are not talking about multi-crew aircraft, or flight test, or some strange integrated course, so that leaves only two possibilities. You log the time as P/UT or you don't log it. Why do so many people seem offended by the idea of logging P/UT? 
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There is something very odd about a PPL holder, whose legal privileges are down to 3000m vis, but who cannot actually navigate under those conditions and is supposed to have an instructor present to go over the water. What is that instructor supposed to be showing him? How to track a VOR and, better still, how to switch on the GPS?
When I did that flight we used a GPS. Neither myself nor the instructor was interested in dead reckoning for about 70 miles in haze.
The instructor will likely be an ATPL hour builder and he will most definitely want to log the flight with himself as PIC, regardless of how the "student" logs it. Somebody will sure as hell be adding up the instructor's logbook entries to see if it adds up to 500 (or whatever) but the "student" will be long forgotten.
I could be wrong on this but I think that in the case of a G-reg plane and a JAA instructor the "non-instructing person" is always PU/T - the successful PPL skills test being the only exception (P1/S).
If the plane was N-reg, then the instructor could be an FAA CFI and the "student" would log it as PIC. The logbook entry would be the same as in the G-reg case.
When I did that flight we used a GPS. Neither myself nor the instructor was interested in dead reckoning for about 70 miles in haze.
The instructor will likely be an ATPL hour builder and he will most definitely want to log the flight with himself as PIC, regardless of how the "student" logs it. Somebody will sure as hell be adding up the instructor's logbook entries to see if it adds up to 500 (or whatever) but the "student" will be long forgotten.
I could be wrong on this but I think that in the case of a G-reg plane and a JAA instructor the "non-instructing person" is always PU/T - the successful PPL skills test being the only exception (P1/S).
If the plane was N-reg, then the instructor could be an FAA CFI and the "student" would log it as PIC. The logbook entry would be the same as in the G-reg case.
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I intend to do my cross channel check at the end of this month (hopefully).
I'm going to combine it with a check out on a new aircraft type (either a Warrior or a Skyhawk) having only flown a C152 up till now. That way, it has to be PU/T but I get to kill two birds with one stone !!!
I'm going to combine it with a check out on a new aircraft type (either a Warrior or a Skyhawk) having only flown a C152 up till now. That way, it has to be PU/T but I get to kill two birds with one stone !!!
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When I started this forum I didn't expect it to continue this long however I will just like to clarify. The caa said it is P1 if you were in control throughout. In my own case I was already checked out on the aircraft and the instructor simply showed me how to fill the custom forms. And yes you can see the coast of France on a clear summer day.
My advice to anyone who wants to do it shoyuld clarify with the school that you intend to log it as P1 and see what they say. In the mean time I am ging to look for a job.
My advice to anyone who wants to do it shoyuld clarify with the school that you intend to log it as P1 and see what they say. In the mean time I am ging to look for a job.
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Nuclear weapon
What license ave you just applied for? Shiny blue - in my day PPL covers were dog efflux brown
If you had not received a PPL, then IMHO you would log the time as P/ut, with the FI as P1.
If you were PPL qualified, then a cross channel trip is neither a formal test nor a lesson from the CAA syllabus, so logic suggests that you would be P1, unless a specific training activity was briefed, agreed and executed.
Otherwise, I would suggest that any intructor input was from a highly qualified passenger, unless he took over the controls.
What license ave you just applied for? Shiny blue - in my day PPL covers were dog efflux
brown If you had not received a PPL, then IMHO you would log the time as P/ut, with the FI as P1.
If you were PPL qualified, then a cross channel trip is neither a formal test nor a lesson from the CAA syllabus, so logic suggests that you would be P1, unless a specific training activity was briefed, agreed and executed.
Otherwise, I would suggest that any intructor input was from a highly qualified passenger, unless he took over the controls.