Logging Co-Pilot & PIC flight time as PPL holder
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Age: 52
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Logging Co-Pilot & PIC flight time as PPL holder
A clarifying question regarding logging of co-pilot flight time.
I seem to recall that a UK JAA PPL holder acting as co-pilot, in i.e. a PA28, can log 50% of the actual flight time as co-pilot whilst the PIC can log 100% flight time even though the plane is not multi-crew rated.
This could have relevance for pilots wishing to reduce costs of maintain PPL rights (12 months preceeding rating expiry 12 hours flight time of which only 6 has to be PIC).
I would be gratefull if someone can verify that you can log 50% co-pilot whilst the PIC logs 100% flight time (please refer to relevant documents).
I seem to recall that a UK JAA PPL holder acting as co-pilot, in i.e. a PA28, can log 50% of the actual flight time as co-pilot whilst the PIC can log 100% flight time even though the plane is not multi-crew rated.
This could have relevance for pilots wishing to reduce costs of maintain PPL rights (12 months preceeding rating expiry 12 hours flight time of which only 6 has to be PIC).
I would be gratefull if someone can verify that you can log 50% co-pilot whilst the PIC logs 100% flight time (please refer to relevant documents).
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You've been misinformed
To count time as P2 / Co-pilot then a co-pilot must be required by the aircrafts operating manual. PA28 is a single pilot aircraft only (like every other aircraft you're likely to fly on a PPL).
The 50% you are thinking of is that when a pilot has P2 time it only counts as 50% of actual value towards certain ratings / licenses / experience requirements.
To count time as P2 / Co-pilot then a co-pilot must be required by the aircrafts operating manual. PA28 is a single pilot aircraft only (like every other aircraft you're likely to fly on a PPL).
The 50% you are thinking of is that when a pilot has P2 time it only counts as 50% of actual value towards certain ratings / licenses / experience requirements.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,929
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viking,
No, you cannot. As CM points out, you can only be co-pilot of an a/c requiring multi-crew. Unlikely, you'll get to fly one of these as a PPL.
However, the role of PIC can change during the flight. I.e. you can be PIC for half the time and the other pilot for the other half (assuming, of course, you're both current and hold valid medicals). In this scenario, a one-hour flight could be logged as 30 mins PIC each.
HTH
No, you cannot. As CM points out, you can only be co-pilot of an a/c requiring multi-crew. Unlikely, you'll get to fly one of these as a PPL.
However, the role of PIC can change during the flight. I.e. you can be PIC for half the time and the other pilot for the other half (assuming, of course, you're both current and hold valid medicals). In this scenario, a one-hour flight could be logged as 30 mins PIC each.
HTH
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmmm.......
As a PPL holder am I required to know what the rules are and how to find them? (or is it an adequate defence to say "this bloke on the Internet told me it was OK?")
The answer to your question can be found in JAR–FCL 1.080 (assuming it's as JAR PPL(A) that you hold.
You can also find the answer in LASORS
Mike
As a PPL holder am I required to know what the rules are and how to find them? (or is it an adequate defence to say "this bloke on the Internet told me it was OK?")
The answer to your question can be found in JAR–FCL 1.080 (assuming it's as JAR PPL(A) that you hold.
You can also find the answer in LASORS
Mike
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by 172driver
However, the role of PIC can change during the flight.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: エリア88
Posts: 1,031
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This could have relevance for pilots wishing to reduce costs of maintain PPL rights (12 months preceeding rating expiry 12 hours flight time of which only 6 has to be PIC).
You only have to do 1 flight with an examiner once every 24 months (if you cant afford the 12 flights/12months rules that is), so its not very expensive and if you cant pass that then you shouldnt be flying anyway.
To answer the question. No you cant log the time, check LASORS
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buggleskelly
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QUOTE---PA28 is a single pilot aircraft only (like every other aircraft you're likely to fly on a PPL).
Not so, a PA28 is a MINIMUM 1 pilot aircraft,two pilots regualrly fly these aircaft, one is called an insructor and one is called a student and both log the hours.
Not so, a PA28 is a MINIMUM 1 pilot aircraft,two pilots regualrly fly these aircaft, one is called an insructor and one is called a student and both log the hours.
This guy is in Copenhagen, they don't gave LASORS there. You can forgive him for being confused because the privilege of the licence is stated in LASORS as:
Now, an aeroplane that requires a co-pilot, must be a multi-pilot aeroplane, which then requires ATPL level knowledge, an IR MCC and a type rating in order to exercise the co-pilot privilege!
I guess the JAA copied the privilege from elswhere without thinking its virtually impossible to exercise!
JAR–FCL 1.110 Privileges and conditions
(a) Privileges. Subject to any other conditions specified in JARs, the privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act, but not for remuneration, as pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aeroplane engaged in non-revenue flights.
(a) Privileges. Subject to any other conditions specified in JARs, the privileges of the holder of a PPL(A) are to act, but not for remuneration, as pilot-in-command or co-pilot of any aeroplane engaged in non-revenue flights.
I guess the JAA copied the privilege from elswhere without thinking its virtually impossible to exercise!
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Saraksh
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An-2 for example as commercial use or even in some skydive clubs needs 2 pilots. Actually it is SEP-PPL plane, so in that case it possible to be on right sit and use 50% of hours in logbook?
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
from JAR-FCL
By regulations one assumes they mean statutory regulations rather than something you, your insurers or your flying club have thought up. Work out whether a co-pilot is required and you have the answer.
(2) Co-pilot flight time
The holder of a pilot licence occupying a
pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as
co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aeroplane, or the
regulations under which the flight is
conducted.
The holder of a pilot licence occupying a
pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as
co-pilot flight time on an aeroplane on which
more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aeroplane, or the
regulations under which the flight is
conducted.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Anywhere
Posts: 2,212
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by theresalwaysone
Not so, a PA28 is a MINIMUM 1 pilot aircraft,two pilots regualrly fly these aircaft, one is called an insructor and one is called a student and both log the hours.
I suggest you read the POH and see what is the required flight crew for the aircraft - this denotes whether it is multi crew or not, which in turn denotes whether it is possible to log P2 time
theresalwaysone - what an apt name
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Ormond Beach
Age: 49
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by acuba 290
An-2 for example as commercial use or even in some skydive clubs needs 2 pilots. Actually it is SEP-PPL plane, so in that case it possible to be on right sit and use 50% of hours in logbook?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Buggleskelly
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by theresalwaysone
Not so, a PA28 is a MINIMUM 1 pilot aircraft,two pilots regualrly fly these aircaft, one is called an insructor and one is called a student and both log the hours.
No Sh1t Sherlock.
I suggest you read the POH and see what is the required flight crew for the aircraft - this denotes whether it is multi crew or not, which in turn denotes whether it is possible to log P2 time
theresalwaysone - what an apt name
Thank you and yes i thought it rather apt, I looked through all the posts and in fact i decided on the name after reading one of your post but thats mainly because i couldnt fit in the name' isnt a little knowledge dangerous?'
First of all the offical document for the PA28 is the manufacturers flight manual not the POH in this case as you state. (POHs as definitive documents were phased out with the Spitfire but are a name adopted by people including some manuafactures who produce versions of flight manuals). Flight manuals are approved manufactures documents and you will not find any **** in there Sherlock. The original Piper Flight Manual was deposited with the CAA, or I think Air Ministry in those days, in order for the PA28 to be accepted onto the British register, this is still the position with all new types. The CAA in consultaion with the manufacturer and the flight manual ascertain the MINMUM crew and that is published on the C of A document as well as in the official flight manual. The word ONLY is never used. From a balloon to an Airbus the word minimum is used. Also note the phrase POH is not used in the ANO, only FLIGHT MANUAL.
The word REQUIRED is used in the ANO for the purposes of establishing the MINIMUM crew on public transport operations.
Required crew cannot be ascertained by the manufacturer because he has no idea in what category the aircraft will be operated or in what country the aircraft will be registered in. Obviously, hopefully even to our friend Sherlock the UK is not the only country in the world to fly PA28s and some countries have very different requirements than the UK CAA
There is nothing to stop anyone flying a PA28 as a two crew aircraft and logging the hours, These hours of course can not be counted towards the grant or renewal of a licence or rating but if you were officially operating as two crew you should certainly log it because it is a record of your experience and that is one of the purposes of your log book.
My first job was a co -pilot on an aircraft owned by a large industrial company not required by the order (ANO) to operate with two crew. However the big multi-nationals insurance company would not allow their directors to fly in any aircraft which had only one pilot. Interestingly the CAA allowed P2 hours to be counted on this a/c as a dispensation, although I am not sure if this would be allowed today under JARS.
When one of the directors, in fact the chairman SIR xxxxxx, wanted to learn to fly it caused all sorts of problems. even whe he had qualified he had to fly with me and yes I was P2 in a PA28 when he wanted to fly anywhere while he was working for the company and the CAA were aware!
I like posting on here but please reply in the same way as if i was talking to you face to face because to do otherwise is just plain rude, nasty and cowardly. I appreciate it makes you look big but to anyone who is interested in just aviation as opposed to personality disorders it just detracts from the point and makes you look silly.
safe sensible flying to all
Originally Posted by theresalwaysone
Not so, a PA28 is a MINIMUM 1 pilot aircraft,two pilots regualrly fly these aircaft, one is called an insructor and one is called a student and both log the hours.
No Sh1t Sherlock.
I suggest you read the POH and see what is the required flight crew for the aircraft - this denotes whether it is multi crew or not, which in turn denotes whether it is possible to log P2 time
theresalwaysone - what an apt name
Thank you and yes i thought it rather apt, I looked through all the posts and in fact i decided on the name after reading one of your post but thats mainly because i couldnt fit in the name' isnt a little knowledge dangerous?'
First of all the offical document for the PA28 is the manufacturers flight manual not the POH in this case as you state. (POHs as definitive documents were phased out with the Spitfire but are a name adopted by people including some manuafactures who produce versions of flight manuals). Flight manuals are approved manufactures documents and you will not find any **** in there Sherlock. The original Piper Flight Manual was deposited with the CAA, or I think Air Ministry in those days, in order for the PA28 to be accepted onto the British register, this is still the position with all new types. The CAA in consultaion with the manufacturer and the flight manual ascertain the MINMUM crew and that is published on the C of A document as well as in the official flight manual. The word ONLY is never used. From a balloon to an Airbus the word minimum is used. Also note the phrase POH is not used in the ANO, only FLIGHT MANUAL.
The word REQUIRED is used in the ANO for the purposes of establishing the MINIMUM crew on public transport operations.
Required crew cannot be ascertained by the manufacturer because he has no idea in what category the aircraft will be operated or in what country the aircraft will be registered in. Obviously, hopefully even to our friend Sherlock the UK is not the only country in the world to fly PA28s and some countries have very different requirements than the UK CAA
There is nothing to stop anyone flying a PA28 as a two crew aircraft and logging the hours, These hours of course can not be counted towards the grant or renewal of a licence or rating but if you were officially operating as two crew you should certainly log it because it is a record of your experience and that is one of the purposes of your log book.
My first job was a co -pilot on an aircraft owned by a large industrial company not required by the order (ANO) to operate with two crew. However the big multi-nationals insurance company would not allow their directors to fly in any aircraft which had only one pilot. Interestingly the CAA allowed P2 hours to be counted on this a/c as a dispensation, although I am not sure if this would be allowed today under JARS.
When one of the directors, in fact the chairman SIR xxxxxx, wanted to learn to fly it caused all sorts of problems. even whe he had qualified he had to fly with me and yes I was P2 in a PA28 when he wanted to fly anywhere while he was working for the company and the CAA were aware!
I like posting on here but please reply in the same way as if i was talking to you face to face because to do otherwise is just plain rude, nasty and cowardly. I appreciate it makes you look big but to anyone who is interested in just aviation as opposed to personality disorders it just detracts from the point and makes you look silly.
safe sensible flying to all
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not a million miles from EGTF
Age: 68
Posts: 1,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Viking Air
A clarifying question regarding logging of co-pilot flight time.
I seem to recall that a UK JAA PPL holder acting as co-pilot, in i.e. a PA28, can log 50% of the actual flight time as co-pilot whilst the PIC can log 100% flight time even though the plane is not multi-crew rated.
This could have relevance for pilots wishing to reduce costs of maintain PPL rights (12 months preceeding rating expiry 12 hours flight time of which only 6 has to be PIC).
I would be gratefull if someone can verify that you can log 50% co-pilot whilst the PIC logs 100% flight time (please refer to relevant documents).
I seem to recall that a UK JAA PPL holder acting as co-pilot, in i.e. a PA28, can log 50% of the actual flight time as co-pilot whilst the PIC can log 100% flight time even though the plane is not multi-crew rated.
This could have relevance for pilots wishing to reduce costs of maintain PPL rights (12 months preceeding rating expiry 12 hours flight time of which only 6 has to be PIC).
I would be gratefull if someone can verify that you can log 50% co-pilot whilst the PIC logs 100% flight time (please refer to relevant documents).
If you are so stuffed for cash that you are unable to maintain your own currency, or even to deal with the one hour flight test every 24 months, why are you flying???
Over the past few years, thanks to my employer and bank manager, I have flown an average of around 30 hours a year. When I am in the air or close to a busy airfield I really don't want to meet a pilot who feels they are current by counting someone else's hours
Please do it properly, or don't do it at all
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry but there is a load of old nonsense being posted here.
I will say this for the last and final time;
A PPL CANNOT log a flight if there is another pilot already logging it, unless that other person is an FI.
SEP machines are not multi-crew a/c, they are single crew so there is no time that someone can log 50% P1 or PICUS time. The only time PICUS can be logged is when the pilot has undergone a successful flight test. The 50% P1 comes from the old rule that you as an F/O could log half the P1 time as a co pilot, but that requires a multi crew machine and crews who have been through an MCC course.
Get it? Got it? Good.
Check LASORS as per usual. It's not rocket science...... It's common sense.
I will say this for the last and final time;
A PPL CANNOT log a flight if there is another pilot already logging it, unless that other person is an FI.
SEP machines are not multi-crew a/c, they are single crew so there is no time that someone can log 50% P1 or PICUS time. The only time PICUS can be logged is when the pilot has undergone a successful flight test. The 50% P1 comes from the old rule that you as an F/O could log half the P1 time as a co pilot, but that requires a multi crew machine and crews who have been through an MCC course.
Get it? Got it? Good.
Check LASORS as per usual. It's not rocket science...... It's common sense.
Say again s l o w l y
That's not what LASORs says. It makes a dinstiction between the logging of the holder's operating capacity and the accreditation of flight time towards a licence.
That's not what LASORs says. It makes a dinstiction between the logging of the holder's operating capacity and the accreditation of flight time towards a licence.
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a point of pedantry Bookworm, LASORS is not definitive. It does tend to include stuff that the editor has chosen to write which does not form part of the legal requirements and it does not differentiate between the two. Comparison between JAR and LASORS will show up the differences.
Mike
Mike