Watch the speed!
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It's a shame more people don't fly gliders before they (progress?) to power. All the same issues are there and others besides! Due to the nature of soaring, you learn from an early stage to feel for the stall, to fly as slowly as possible even in a very tight turns (to remain in the core of a thermal). Great emphasis is placed on stalls and SPINNING! for reasons of high exposure to the risk. Gliders with their greater wingspan, winch launching and thermalling activities are often flown within a wasps breath of the stall. ASI is important, but it's only feel, attitude and experience (by practice, not hours) that keep it so safe.
I've mostly flown small underpowered PFA types, with dubious ASI's (and sometimes strange flying characteristics) so I've learned to use airspeed as a guide rather than as a dictate. I'm not suggesting everyone ignor their ASI, but I would encourage them to remember attitude, power settings ect for a given airspeed whilst everything is working fine. Then when the day comes (which it will) when a problem occurs, they will be prepared and will automatically fly by instinct and not by numbers. Or course, when near the ground the ASI is invaluble as it's easy to be suckered by wind affects on visual clues ... but if well trained and aware it is still not essential.
I noticed someone mentioned only doing shallow turns onto final. That's great, but don't fall into the trap that of thinking shallow turns are always safe. It's too easy to worry about banking and then feed in more and more rudder to stop from overshooting the centre line. A low, slow skidding turn is a real spin scenario! Banking is fine if properly co-ordinated and the correct attitude (or if you prefer ... airspeed) maintained.
"Seat of the pants" sounds very Gung-Ho and old school, but in reality anyone who has learned to fly, will (even if they don't admit it) fly by visual and sensual clues. The trick is to know when to ignor them!
SS
I've mostly flown small underpowered PFA types, with dubious ASI's (and sometimes strange flying characteristics) so I've learned to use airspeed as a guide rather than as a dictate. I'm not suggesting everyone ignor their ASI, but I would encourage them to remember attitude, power settings ect for a given airspeed whilst everything is working fine. Then when the day comes (which it will) when a problem occurs, they will be prepared and will automatically fly by instinct and not by numbers. Or course, when near the ground the ASI is invaluble as it's easy to be suckered by wind affects on visual clues ... but if well trained and aware it is still not essential.
I noticed someone mentioned only doing shallow turns onto final. That's great, but don't fall into the trap that of thinking shallow turns are always safe. It's too easy to worry about banking and then feed in more and more rudder to stop from overshooting the centre line. A low, slow skidding turn is a real spin scenario! Banking is fine if properly co-ordinated and the correct attitude (or if you prefer ... airspeed) maintained.
"Seat of the pants" sounds very Gung-Ho and old school, but in reality anyone who has learned to fly, will (even if they don't admit it) fly by visual and sensual clues. The trick is to know when to ignor them!
SS
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Hear hear
The low shallow final turn is a real killer, and not enough power pilots realise that. Certainly since I've been flying powered aircraft instructors don't demonstrate that one too often to students
The low shallow final turn is a real killer, and not enough power pilots realise that. Certainly since I've been flying powered aircraft instructors don't demonstrate that one too often to students
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Why should a shallow final turn be more of a killer than a non-shallow final turn?
Regarding gliding, yes that might be helpful but when I looked into having some lessons a few years ago it became very obvious that in gliding one is going to get to know the other club members exceedingly well
Regarding gliding, yes that might be helpful but when I looked into having some lessons a few years ago it became very obvious that in gliding one is going to get to know the other club members exceedingly well
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When I was taught the one thing that was drilled into me was the well-banked final turn.
In itself, a shallow turn is not dangerous, but add to that a low final turn and the risks start to build up. The natural reaction for a person is to raise the nose when low to get away from the hard bits, so to turn an inexperienced pilot might over-rudder to line up the nose.
If speed control is not right you have the stall/spin with no height available to recover
Again, since taking up power flying, I have been surprised to see how many pilots 'drag in' low down the approach from a long way out, relying on the donkey to keep going.
They should try a flight in a VW or 0-200 powered aircraft in an icing day - that would teach them a good lesson in positioning the circuit and height on approach
In itself, a shallow turn is not dangerous, but add to that a low final turn and the risks start to build up. The natural reaction for a person is to raise the nose when low to get away from the hard bits, so to turn an inexperienced pilot might over-rudder to line up the nose.
If speed control is not right you have the stall/spin with no height available to recover
Again, since taking up power flying, I have been surprised to see how many pilots 'drag in' low down the approach from a long way out, relying on the donkey to keep going.
They should try a flight in a VW or 0-200 powered aircraft in an icing day - that would teach them a good lesson in positioning the circuit and height on approach
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Originally Posted by IO540
Why should a shallow final turn be more of a killer than a non-shallow final turn?
Also, a 45 degree turn uses less height overall (in gliders you will necessarily descend during the final turn unless there happens to be lift there) and is easier to judge so you end up pointing in the right direction, rather than displaced to one side of the runway or field.
I have seen two gliders spin in from relatively steep final turns. This was because the lower wing was in less wind than the upper wing due to wind gradient. I had landed just before one of them and noticed a sudden 20 kt drop in IAS at the same height. For gliders this, IMO, makes it worth avoiding steep final turns close to the ground in any significant wind.
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Sorry chaps, but I think I must have a different grasp of aerodynamics.
So, if I get this right, it's safer to do a steep turn close to the ground, than do a shallow turn?.......
Any a/c has enough elevator authority to stall itself, especially at increasing angles of bank. How can they not? These aren't tiny little controls with short lever arms we're talking about.
The load factor will also increase with an increasing angle of bank and so therefore will the stall speed decrasing your margin for error.
Making a steep turn onto final approach is as daft an idea as I've heard for a while, especially in a discussion about low houred and inexperienced pilots.
Another one of my bug bears (I'm sure many have nothiced that I have a few!!) is people who teach making small heading changes by using rudder, especially on approach, or even worse on climb out.......
All turns should be co-ordinated and that means using the rudder to counteract the adverse aileron yaw, NOT as a method of changing direction. At low speeds and low altitudes it is even more important than normal to keep yaw to a minimum, lest you learn first hand that Stall + Yaw = Spin.
So, if I get this right, it's safer to do a steep turn close to the ground, than do a shallow turn?.......
Any a/c has enough elevator authority to stall itself, especially at increasing angles of bank. How can they not? These aren't tiny little controls with short lever arms we're talking about.
The load factor will also increase with an increasing angle of bank and so therefore will the stall speed decrasing your margin for error.
Making a steep turn onto final approach is as daft an idea as I've heard for a while, especially in a discussion about low houred and inexperienced pilots.
Another one of my bug bears (I'm sure many have nothiced that I have a few!!) is people who teach making small heading changes by using rudder, especially on approach, or even worse on climb out.......
All turns should be co-ordinated and that means using the rudder to counteract the adverse aileron yaw, NOT as a method of changing direction. At low speeds and low altitudes it is even more important than normal to keep yaw to a minimum, lest you learn first hand that Stall + Yaw = Spin.
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im 3 hours into PPL, what advice and useful info could you give me on flying the circuit, particularly base and final (not forgetting flare as everytime i have landed i have bounced)
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SAS
I didn't exactly advocate steep turns close to the ground did I? If you read my post again, I was pointing out that a well banked but properly co-ordinated turn onto finals is safer than being afraid to bank and subconciously ruddering around the turn. A slow skidding turn is the perfect recipe for a spin as you know. I say co-ordinated, but actually that's not quite true ... a well banked slipping turn onto finals is actually quite safe.
ProfChrisReed
That's a new one on me? but for once I think you're wrong. Are you confusing the fact that in a slip most gliders will naturally straighten up if you get too slow due to lack of rudder authority?
Pulse1
I was alluding to what you saw when I mentioned a gliders larger wingspan and said that gliders suffer all the same issues and more. It is rare though, but I seem to remember reading in one of Derek Piggots books that it happened to him. His answer was to keep the involuntry turn going as the phenonomen is instantly cured once you've turned downwind ... but then how many of us have his experience to think that cool in such circumstances???
So, if I get this right, it's safer to do a steep turn close to the ground, than do a shallow turn?.......
ProfChrisReed
Because in a glider you have enough elevator authority to stall the glider in a shallow turn, but usually not (except perhaps in a few rare types) in a 45+ degree banked turn. Thus, even if suckered (by ground proximity, other aircraft, events on the runway etc.) into pulling back on the stick, you won't stall, drop a wing and spin in.
Pulse1
I was alluding to what you saw when I mentioned a gliders larger wingspan and said that gliders suffer all the same issues and more. It is rare though, but I seem to remember reading in one of Derek Piggots books that it happened to him. His answer was to keep the involuntry turn going as the phenonomen is instantly cured once you've turned downwind ... but then how many of us have his experience to think that cool in such circumstances???
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Felix Saddler,
With your experience level I would ignore this thread completely (with the exception of Lister's first post) and concentrate only on what your instructor wants you to know and to do.
im 3 hours into PPL, what advice and useful info could you give me on flying the circuit, particularly base and final
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im 3 hours into PPL, what advice and useful info could you give me on flying the circuit, particularly base and final (not forgetting flare as everytime i have landed i have bounced)
3 things:
watch your speed
watch your speed
watch your speed
and always trim the plane for the desired speed; don't just hold it there with some combination of power and pulling/pushing the yoke. A correctly trimmed plane should fly at the desired speed with your hands off the yoke.
And find out what speeds you should be flying at on downwind, base, and final.
Basically, unless you do something really daft (like flying into a hill), the only way you will ever crash if you allow the speed to decay into the stall region. All the time you have speed, you have a controllable aircraft.
I was never taught any of the above in my PPL, but think it's a useful summary.
I hope you aren't flying a Tomahawk though. My 20 hours in those is remembered for it having no working trim.
3 things:
watch your speed
watch your speed
watch your speed
and always trim the plane for the desired speed; don't just hold it there with some combination of power and pulling/pushing the yoke. A correctly trimmed plane should fly at the desired speed with your hands off the yoke.
And find out what speeds you should be flying at on downwind, base, and final.
Basically, unless you do something really daft (like flying into a hill), the only way you will ever crash if you allow the speed to decay into the stall region. All the time you have speed, you have a controllable aircraft.
I was never taught any of the above in my PPL, but think it's a useful summary.
I hope you aren't flying a Tomahawk though. My 20 hours in those is remembered for it having no working trim.
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SS, I'm agreeing with you, co-ordinated turns are vitally important, what I'm disagreeing with is the comment that shallow turns are by nature more dangerous than steep turns......
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Oh I see!
Sorry, that's not at all how I meant it at all. What I meant is that it is easier to fall into the trap of over ruddering (to keep to the centre line if drifting) and perhaps even raising the nose slightly, from a shallow turn than a well banked one. Of course a shallow turn in itself is safer if flown correctly. Here's a (very bad) analogy ... Driving fast is potentially more dangerous than plodding along slowly taking in the view. However, this is often offset slightly by the driver focussing more on the actual driving.
SS
Sorry, that's not at all how I meant it at all. What I meant is that it is easier to fall into the trap of over ruddering (to keep to the centre line if drifting) and perhaps even raising the nose slightly, from a shallow turn than a well banked one. Of course a shallow turn in itself is safer if flown correctly. Here's a (very bad) analogy ... Driving fast is potentially more dangerous than plodding along slowly taking in the view. However, this is often offset slightly by the driver focussing more on the actual driving.
SS
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High Wing Drifter.
Listen to what your instructor tells, and shows, you.
Main points to remember are:
1. Watch Your Speed (Indicated and also your "feel" for how fast you are going)
2. The Base to Final Turn can be a *major* killer of low time pilots becase of the lack of altitude to recover from stall
3. Incorrect (non) use of Carb Heat will also cause you problems in the UK. Learn your Carb Heat theory thoroughly - remember Carb Heat may be needed on lovely sunny days....
Enjoy your training.
Listen to what your instructor tells, and shows, you.
Main points to remember are:
1. Watch Your Speed (Indicated and also your "feel" for how fast you are going)
2. The Base to Final Turn can be a *major* killer of low time pilots becase of the lack of altitude to recover from stall
3. Incorrect (non) use of Carb Heat will also cause you problems in the UK. Learn your Carb Heat theory thoroughly - remember Carb Heat may be needed on lovely sunny days....
Enjoy your training.
Gender Faculty Specialist
Originally Posted by Felix Saddler
im 3 hours into PPL, what advice and useful info could you give me on flying the circuit, particularly base and final (not forgetting flare as everytime i have landed i have bounced)
As per my previous post.
POWER ATTITUDE TRIM
If the POH can't tell you your instructor can. Set the correct power, fly the right attitude and you WILL fly at the correct speed...then trim it. Remember too that all the prescribed speeds in the POH have a safe working factor added to them. For instance you will not stall if you fly a couple of knots below your final approach speed for a couple of seconds.
Don't fall into the trap of staring at your ASI, because you don't need to if you use the correct power and attitude. Incorporate it into your scan, yes. Scan outside starting behind the left wing, past the nose and behind the right wing, then inside. Check the engine instruments, altimeter, ASI etc. And then start again. Your head should be moving constantly...which leads me on to my next point.
Remember the first rule of airmanship "KEEP A GOOD LOOKOUT". Especially if you're flying in a busy circuit. This helps you with your situational awareness aswell. It will stop you flying into someone else, and will help you get out of the way of someone who's head is inside staring at his ASI.
LANDING.
DON'T be afraid of the ground.
As soon as you turn final stabilise your approach. Configuration, attitude, power, trim and speed should all be steady as soon as possible. Make small corrections as necessary.
Once you're over the threshold ignore the ILS, PAPIs and anything else you were looking at. Ease your nose down a bit to INCREASE very slightly your rate of descent, take off enough power so your speed gradually reduces to your landing speed (if your approach speed and landing speed are different). Between 10 and 20 feet (keep the aeroplane flying towards the runway and don't use your altimeter, this is a judgement call) look at the far end of the runway. This allows your perspective vision to better judge your height. GENTLY check the rate of descent, take off a trickle of power and flare, GENTLY! Arrive!
DON'T be afraid of the ground, DON'T flare too high. DON'T be afraid of the ground, DON'T flare too high.
Keep flying the aeroplane right down and if anything flare later than you think you should. Don't worry, it wont be!
Remember. A good landing is at the correct speed and at the correct place. Not just because it is smooth.
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Just to clarify what I said before; I didn't mean don't teach the numbers - that would obviously be daft! I meant teach how the a/c feels, without reference to the numbers (ie asi covered) too.
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Originally Posted by wombat13
yeah, right.
If this is really the best you can contribute, maybe it is best to learn a bit more and hold back on your contributions until you have your licence and some post qualification experience under your belt.
The wombat
If this is really the best you can contribute, maybe it is best to learn a bit more and hold back on your contributions until you have your licence and some post qualification experience under your belt.
The wombat
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Set-up for 70 kts down wind and never look at the ASI again.
Longbow, I would not be so abrasive as wombat13, but if you really think that setting up a PA28-180 downwind at 70kias is good practice, I am a bit worried for you.
70 is a good speed for the start of final, coming back to 65, but it's way too slow for downwind.
As a generic approach I'd plan to fly downwind at 100 coming back to 90kias, base 80-75, final 70-65.
Obviously these numbers would be amended as necessary in the circumstances prevailing at the time.
Also, I would expect to trim quite actively, especially if going to the 2nd stage of flaps from clean and then for 65 on short final.
Using these speeds, I could operate quite happily into 700m of grass, with a final approach of about 1nm, due to local considerations. So no bomber circuit necessary, yet no dawdling to baulk high performance singles or twins.
Just my thoughts.
Longbow, I would not be so abrasive as wombat13, but if you really think that setting up a PA28-180 downwind at 70kias is good practice, I am a bit worried for you.
70 is a good speed for the start of final, coming back to 65, but it's way too slow for downwind.
As a generic approach I'd plan to fly downwind at 100 coming back to 90kias, base 80-75, final 70-65.
Obviously these numbers would be amended as necessary in the circumstances prevailing at the time.
Also, I would expect to trim quite actively, especially if going to the 2nd stage of flaps from clean and then for 65 on short final.
Using these speeds, I could operate quite happily into 700m of grass, with a final approach of about 1nm, due to local considerations. So no bomber circuit necessary, yet no dawdling to baulk high performance singles or twins.
Just my thoughts.
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Final, You are correct, as different planes are flown differently. and I should have said at the numbers, and those numbers I gave were for the 172,152 I fly, the 182 is 80 down wind, and 70 with 1st notch of flaps at the numbers. the last time I flew an Archers, 80 down wind, 70 at the numbers and the last time I looked at the ASI (During VFR flight) on final it was right above 65. I am sorry is I offended anyone with my slight courseness, I usually don't say anything.