Civvy Circuit Size
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Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Up there somewhere
Civvy Circuit Size
Has anyone else noticed the tendency for many flying schools to teach their studes larger/wider circuits?
Apparently this is to give the stude MORE TIME
(if they can't hack it, they obviously need more lessons in the circuit being taught how to fly a normal cct)
And also...for spacing?!
The number of times I end up getting circuit rage flying the square circuit is unreal. If you are number 2 and there is a cross country circuit going on infront...you get screwed over royally (as well as clocking up more minutes = more money to pay!)
Also, I don't think 3 mile finals are necessary in cct.
Come on instructors...sort it out!
I was always taught...spacing downwind... edge of wing on runway (or thereabouts, type dependent)
Any thoughts? Or is it just me?
Lets start teaching everyone oval ccts
Apparently this is to give the stude MORE TIME
(if they can't hack it, they obviously need more lessons in the circuit being taught how to fly a normal cct)And also...for spacing?!
The number of times I end up getting circuit rage flying the square circuit is unreal. If you are number 2 and there is a cross country circuit going on infront...you get screwed over royally (as well as clocking up more minutes = more money to pay!)
Also, I don't think 3 mile finals are necessary in cct.
Come on instructors...sort it out!
I was always taught...spacing downwind... edge of wing on runway (or thereabouts, type dependent)
Any thoughts? Or is it just me?
Lets start teaching everyone oval ccts
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
This is a constant battle in many places. Some schools teach these enormous bomber ccts that just get in everbodies way whilst the rest of us try and teach a far more reasonable sized cct.
I'm still at a loss to understand why such massive circuits are necessary in slow moving light trainers.
I'm still at a loss to understand why such massive circuits are necessary in slow moving light trainers.
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Has anyone else noticed the tendency for many flying schools to teach their studes larger/wider circuits?
However, I often watch the other big name school's circuits with disbelief; one sometimes wonders if the pilot has died at the controls as it heads off seemingly to the downwind horizon 
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 1st December 2005 at 12:47.
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From: Earth
Call me a cynic but......
Surely the larger the circuit the less fuel per hour the a/c uses (less take-offs) and therefore less cost to running that a/c for the club?
Less landings per hour also reduce wear and tear surely?
Perhaps I have taken the wrong direction on this but I'm sure they must consider these factors.
Surely the larger the circuit the less fuel per hour the a/c uses (less take-offs) and therefore less cost to running that a/c for the club?
Less landings per hour also reduce wear and tear surely?
Perhaps I have taken the wrong direction on this but I'm sure they must consider these factors.
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Glasgow
Wide circuits do mean fewer landings, but as a student I am trying to learn to handle the approach and landing. So the more of these I can get the better.
Ken
ps. my instructor wrapped my knuckles as my circuits were going ovoid.
Ken
ps. my instructor wrapped my knuckles as my circuits were going ovoid.
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: Milton Keynes
Yes this happened to me when training (early solo circuits) following an aircraft clearly visible infront downwind, reached the point I normally turned base aircraft in front goes straight on. I've been told I'm number three and can see number one on short finals. When the aircraft infront left the ATZ (clearly defined by a motorway) I convinced myself I was following the wrong aircraft so I turned base at my usual spot and ended up being number two instead of three. ATC told me not to worry about it so they must have thought he was leaving too.
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my circuits were going ovoid
BTW, it is no co-incidence that ATZ's are circular, Circuits should be round (or at least ovoid) to fit inside.
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
I think all early circuit training should be done in gliders.
We use motorgliders to practice field selection prior to cross-country. I think power schools should make arrangements to fly a series of glider circuits before solo to show power pilots the correct size of a circuit, just in case the engine stops.
Given many pilots failures to recognise carb icing, it would be a salutary lesson if the instructors chopped the throttle on a long low fianl approach once in a while
We use motorgliders to practice field selection prior to cross-country. I think power schools should make arrangements to fly a series of glider circuits before solo to show power pilots the correct size of a circuit, just in case the engine stops.
Given many pilots failures to recognise carb icing, it would be a salutary lesson if the instructors chopped the throttle on a long low fianl approach once in a while
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Dub Trub, since when have non-military circuits been round or oval?
Not anywhere I've ever been........ Or according to the CAA. The standard circuit pattern should have an upwind, crosswind, downwind, base leg and final sections.
Circuits should not be so far out as not to able to make the field in some form if you get an engine failure. That's not necessarily onto the runway, but within the boundaries of the field. Paper work is easier and it's easier for the emergency services to get to you if you need them.
Not anywhere I've ever been........ Or according to the CAA. The standard circuit pattern should have an upwind, crosswind, downwind, base leg and final sections.
Circuits should not be so far out as not to able to make the field in some form if you get an engine failure. That's not necessarily onto the runway, but within the boundaries of the field. Paper work is easier and it's easier for the emergency services to get to you if you need them.
Last edited by Say again s l o w l y; 1st December 2005 at 12:28.
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From: UK
if the circuit is contained within gliding distance it means that
a. you can get in if the engine stops and
b. if you ever had an engine out emergency then your final aproach to wherever you decide to land will be (nearly) the normal configuration for you.
a. you can get in if the engine stops and
b. if you ever had an engine out emergency then your final aproach to wherever you decide to land will be (nearly) the normal configuration for you.
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: U.K.
Probably for a similar reason that we have a different method to the military for dealing with forced landings.
Tight turning circuits are all very well in high performance, high energy a/c flown by a skilled pilot who originally needed a curving approach due to not being able to see ahead because they were in something like a Spit or Hurricane, whereas in civvy street we are dealing with a totally different set of circumstances. For instance it is much easier to control traffic patterns with muti leg circuits, rather than ones with constant turns, it is easier to teach and fly, and far easier for people to able to judge wind drift than if they were constantly turning. It also allows people to have a longer approach and not rush them, which would invariably lead to a huge number of problems in training or with inexperienced pilots.
We don't have the problems of a lack of visibility or excess speed that military machines used to have.
This is the standard pattern as laid out, but if you wish to do something different, that's up to you, but you must fit in with all the other traffic that's around you.
Tight turning circuits are all very well in high performance, high energy a/c flown by a skilled pilot who originally needed a curving approach due to not being able to see ahead because they were in something like a Spit or Hurricane, whereas in civvy street we are dealing with a totally different set of circumstances. For instance it is much easier to control traffic patterns with muti leg circuits, rather than ones with constant turns, it is easier to teach and fly, and far easier for people to able to judge wind drift than if they were constantly turning. It also allows people to have a longer approach and not rush them, which would invariably lead to a huge number of problems in training or with inexperienced pilots.
We don't have the problems of a lack of visibility or excess speed that military machines used to have.
This is the standard pattern as laid out, but if you wish to do something different, that's up to you, but you must fit in with all the other traffic that's around you.
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: UK
DT
quote:‘Cross-country flight’ means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure.
but this is for the purpose of defining the privileges of the AFI/FI(R) nothing more!
All circuits should fit into the ATZ, if they don't, you lose the protection of the ATZ and in accordance with Rule 39 (3)(b) you must report on the radio your position and height on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it! With a standard 2nm ATZ the final leg cannot exceed 1 mile (nm).
If the aircraft ahead flies out of the ATZ don't follow it! HE'S WRONG NOT YOU. Fly a propper circuit and if necessary go arround, you can do that from anywhere in the circuit. Maybe then the bomber circuit brigade would get the message.
quote:‘Cross-country flight’ means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure.
but this is for the purpose of defining the privileges of the AFI/FI(R) nothing more!
All circuits should fit into the ATZ, if they don't, you lose the protection of the ATZ and in accordance with Rule 39 (3)(b) you must report on the radio your position and height on entering the zone and immediately prior to leaving it! With a standard 2nm ATZ the final leg cannot exceed 1 mile (nm).
If the aircraft ahead flies out of the ATZ don't follow it! HE'S WRONG NOT YOU. Fly a propper circuit and if necessary go arround, you can do that from anywhere in the circuit. Maybe then the bomber circuit brigade would get the message.
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Daventry UK
I suggest some of this is down to noise abatement proceedures, which specify seriously wide flying at quite a few places.
Some airfields with NIMBY problems have published downwinds starting/finishing almost 3mi from the runway! Unfortunately these proceedures are often published in flight guides and on the Internet without any form of scale attached, apart from the amorphous globs that are the NIMBY's to be avoided. All pretty meaningless to a visitor unfortunately.
I don't know if the omission of scale stems from a reluctance to admit that some of the proceedures potentially place circuits outside the ATZ.
Some airfields with NIMBY problems have published downwinds starting/finishing almost 3mi from the runway! Unfortunately these proceedures are often published in flight guides and on the Internet without any form of scale attached, apart from the amorphous globs that are the NIMBY's to be avoided. All pretty meaningless to a visitor unfortunately.
I don't know if the omission of scale stems from a reluctance to admit that some of the proceedures potentially place circuits outside the ATZ.
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: beverley
I fly at a large regional airport and was flying big circuits until my skills test at which time the examiner asked me why,as from 1000ft I wouldn't make it in on the glide approach!
Since passing I fly nice tight ovals,spitfire style curving downwind to final.Looks nice,feels nice and get round quicker.
I'm with Flik roll on this one
Since passing I fly nice tight ovals,spitfire style curving downwind to final.Looks nice,feels nice and get round quicker.
I'm with Flik roll on this one
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Norfolk
There is a school of thought which says that if one throttles back to idle on downwind and treats all circuits as glide approaches, the circuit size will reduce to a sensible size! 
Works in the Pitts, Tiger and Cub!
Stik
Works in the Pitts, Tiger and Cub!
Stik