Gliders flying in cloud
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I must respect your capabilities, but PPL training tells us the earhole and backside cannot be depended upon when the eyes are out of the loop. Recall the party trick of standing on one leg with eyes closed and falling over after a minute, and the Instructor telling us to shut eyes just before recoveries from u/p's. I've tried that CAA revolving chair and that did for me as well.
If these misleading sensations can be ovecome by being more intimately in tune with the machine, maybe power pilots should go up high, chop the power and practice some gliding to get used to those subtle sounds and sensations.
I must respect your capabilities, but PPL training tells us the earhole and backside cannot be depended upon when the eyes are out of the loop. Recall the party trick of standing on one leg with eyes closed and falling over after a minute, and the Instructor telling us to shut eyes just before recoveries from u/p's. I've tried that CAA revolving chair and that did for me as well.
If these misleading sensations can be ovecome by being more intimately in tune with the machine, maybe power pilots should go up high, chop the power and practice some gliding to get used to those subtle sounds and sensations.
Avoid imitations
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Shortstripper,
Please make no mistake, my only agenda here is to live long enough to collect my pension.
I have absolutely no objection to gliders in clouds, as long as I can avoid flying through the same cloud at the same height!
I too would reconsider my "collision avoidance plan", such as in my Coventry example, if I knew for certain there were gliders ahead and some of them might be in cloud. A radio call from just one of "the swarm" to ATC would be enough to alert everyone. So PLEASE do it!
BTW, I'm an ex glider pilot, too - that's where I began flying. Went solo at RAF Swanton Morley thirty four years ago.
Please make no mistake, my only agenda here is to live long enough to collect my pension.
I have absolutely no objection to gliders in clouds, as long as I can avoid flying through the same cloud at the same height!
I too would reconsider my "collision avoidance plan", such as in my Coventry example, if I knew for certain there were gliders ahead and some of them might be in cloud. A radio call from just one of "the swarm" to ATC would be enough to alert everyone. So PLEASE do it!
BTW, I'm an ex glider pilot, too - that's where I began flying. Went solo at RAF Swanton Morley thirty four years ago.
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All national, and regional competitions in the UK, as well as some inter-club league competitions are NOTAM'd.
Any decent task setter worth their salt generally sets tasks away from areas of potential heavy traffic, and routes are normally set with good horizontal seperation from controlled airspace. Airspace infringements are another topic altogether!
It's very unlikely that in any field of say 40 glider that any more than the odd one or two, will take or risk a cloud climb, and thats only if the conditions are right. As I have said in earlier posts, it really is the exception - rather than the norm.
A system called FLARM has been introduced on the continent, which is aimed at providing a collision avoidance system for light GA and gliders.
It uses integrated I-band tranceivers and GPS to provide visual and audio feedback on aircraft on collision courses (360 degrees). Unfortunately, as I understand it, the frequencies used for FLARM, are allocated for other purposes in the UK. I for one would fully support such a scheme in the UK, given the relatively low cost.http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
Any decent task setter worth their salt generally sets tasks away from areas of potential heavy traffic, and routes are normally set with good horizontal seperation from controlled airspace. Airspace infringements are another topic altogether!
It's very unlikely that in any field of say 40 glider that any more than the odd one or two, will take or risk a cloud climb, and thats only if the conditions are right. As I have said in earlier posts, it really is the exception - rather than the norm.
A system called FLARM has been introduced on the continent, which is aimed at providing a collision avoidance system for light GA and gliders.
It uses integrated I-band tranceivers and GPS to provide visual and audio feedback on aircraft on collision courses (360 degrees). Unfortunately, as I understand it, the frequencies used for FLARM, are allocated for other purposes in the UK. I for one would fully support such a scheme in the UK, given the relatively low cost.http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
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F3G's
I too am an ex-glider pilot and once the kids are grown will be again. I've just seen so many of these threads on various forums and there are always some that come across in the way I described. To be fair, this thread is developing a bit more sensibily than most, so forgive me for being too cynical. After all that is what I asked (tounge in cheek) "am I being too cynical?"
SS
I too am an ex-glider pilot and once the kids are grown will be again. I've just seen so many of these threads on various forums and there are always some that come across in the way I described. To be fair, this thread is developing a bit more sensibily than most, so forgive me for being too cynical. After all that is what I asked (tounge in cheek) "am I being too cynical?"
SS
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This thread is a real eye-opener. I did not know that it was legal for gliders to fly into cloud. As a PPL who flies in IMC often I have always assumed like englishal that provided I was clear of the cloudbase there was no risk of encountering a glider in cloud. I am not clear how to respond to this new information!
Presumably it doesn't really matter whether you are a glider pilot or powered pilot, any venture into cloud risks collision with another aircraft. The difference for gliders is that they will not have a radar service. Does this mean that there is a greater risk of gliders colliding with one another?
I am trying to work out how I would manage flying in IMC differently/better with this knowledge. Do the instructors on this thread have any suggestions?
Presumably it doesn't really matter whether you are a glider pilot or powered pilot, any venture into cloud risks collision with another aircraft. The difference for gliders is that they will not have a radar service. Does this mean that there is a greater risk of gliders colliding with one another?
I am trying to work out how I would manage flying in IMC differently/better with this knowledge. Do the instructors on this thread have any suggestions?
Avoid imitations
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Jayemm,
There is no easy answer. That's why the glider pilots need to consider speaking on an ATC frequency to advertise their presence. Otherwise it's a lottery, albeit one where you don't want your number to come up!
There is no easy answer. That's why the glider pilots need to consider speaking on an ATC frequency to advertise their presence. Otherwise it's a lottery, albeit one where you don't want your number to come up!
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I'm (cautiously) practising cloud flying in my glider.
ShyTorque suggests that I call an ATC frequency, and I'd be happy to do so - but which one? And how often?
So far as I know, all the glider collisions in cloud have been with other gliders, and they appear to have been in competitions prior to the mid-late 1970s when cloud flying seems to have been much more popular - this is (I think) because the lower-performing wooden gliders benefitted much more from cloud climbs than modern glass machines.
My biggest risk (and the biggest risk I create) seems to be from/to other gliders, so I need to monitor and call on 130.4, which is the BGA-allocated cloud flying frequency.
I could call ATC when about to enter cloud, but as I'll only be cloud climbing in class G airspace I'd like to know who to call. Near my home club the obvious candidate would be Lakenheath, but would this lead to powered a/c being alerted if in the area?
In other words, if you're flying IMC in class G airspace, who would be advising you about my activities?
[And, BTW, I don't think any (sane) glider pilot flies in CBs these days. Since we found out about wave, seriously high (say 10,000 ft plus) flying is done that way).
ShyTorque suggests that I call an ATC frequency, and I'd be happy to do so - but which one? And how often?
So far as I know, all the glider collisions in cloud have been with other gliders, and they appear to have been in competitions prior to the mid-late 1970s when cloud flying seems to have been much more popular - this is (I think) because the lower-performing wooden gliders benefitted much more from cloud climbs than modern glass machines.
My biggest risk (and the biggest risk I create) seems to be from/to other gliders, so I need to monitor and call on 130.4, which is the BGA-allocated cloud flying frequency.
I could call ATC when about to enter cloud, but as I'll only be cloud climbing in class G airspace I'd like to know who to call. Near my home club the obvious candidate would be Lakenheath, but would this lead to powered a/c being alerted if in the area?
In other words, if you're flying IMC in class G airspace, who would be advising you about my activities?
[And, BTW, I don't think any (sane) glider pilot flies in CBs these days. Since we found out about wave, seriously high (say 10,000 ft plus) flying is done that way).
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Prof, best of luck if you want to call ATC first. Today I was listening out to Essex Radar for a while and heard the following:
A glider (from Wethersfield, I believe): Essex, Glider XXX
ATC: Glider XXX, stand by:
[Time passed. ATC talked to various airliners or whatever for several minutes]
Glider: Essex, Glider XXX standing by;
ATC: Glider XXX, I'll get back to you;
[Time passed. ATC talked to various airliners or whatever for several more minutes]
ATC: Glider XXX, pass your message;
Glider: [Unintelligible];
ATC: Glider XXX, I received only carrier wave, say again;
Glider: [Unintelligible];
ATC: Glider XXX, I received only carrier wave, stay out of controlled airspace.
I changed to 130.4 soon after, so I heard no more - I was going cloud flying between Stansted and Bury St. Edmunds, to get high enough to cross to Tibenham without descending into the Mildenhall/Lakenheath complex or needing to thermal near the extended centreline of any of their runways.
You asked which ATC to talk to. You could consider Essex, Lakenheath, or I suppose London Info. None will know all the others' traffic, I expect, none will know of other gliders, and if you try Essex they will almost certainly be too busy. Lakenheath was fairly busy today too (I listened out to them for a while when near their area). If you do try ATC, make sure you have a good radio and well-charged battery - I can't imagine it improves our credibility with them if we can't sustain transmissions like the chap today.
If you do cloud fly,. for goodness sake use 130.4 while doing it - as I have pointed out before, the biggest risk to a glider is another glider - and it might be me in that area!
I can't convince the power pilots on here (and I'm not going to try any more) that talking to ATC is impractical and anyway addresses the least of our risks. If you monitor Essex or Lakenheath for a bit, however, you will understand why I wrote earlier that if all gliders in East Anglia did so, they would be swamped.
By the way, the only powered aircraft I saw were in VMC, well below cloud. The closest was a few hundred metres away, at my height - about 1500 feet, just south of Ridgewell, and it looked like he had just flown over Ridgewell - where we were winch launching, and displaying the correct signal for what its worth. And they think we take risks!
Regards - Chris N.
============================
A glider (from Wethersfield, I believe): Essex, Glider XXX
ATC: Glider XXX, stand by:
[Time passed. ATC talked to various airliners or whatever for several minutes]
Glider: Essex, Glider XXX standing by;
ATC: Glider XXX, I'll get back to you;
[Time passed. ATC talked to various airliners or whatever for several more minutes]
ATC: Glider XXX, pass your message;
Glider: [Unintelligible];
ATC: Glider XXX, I received only carrier wave, say again;
Glider: [Unintelligible];
ATC: Glider XXX, I received only carrier wave, stay out of controlled airspace.
I changed to 130.4 soon after, so I heard no more - I was going cloud flying between Stansted and Bury St. Edmunds, to get high enough to cross to Tibenham without descending into the Mildenhall/Lakenheath complex or needing to thermal near the extended centreline of any of their runways.
You asked which ATC to talk to. You could consider Essex, Lakenheath, or I suppose London Info. None will know all the others' traffic, I expect, none will know of other gliders, and if you try Essex they will almost certainly be too busy. Lakenheath was fairly busy today too (I listened out to them for a while when near their area). If you do try ATC, make sure you have a good radio and well-charged battery - I can't imagine it improves our credibility with them if we can't sustain transmissions like the chap today.
If you do cloud fly,. for goodness sake use 130.4 while doing it - as I have pointed out before, the biggest risk to a glider is another glider - and it might be me in that area!
I can't convince the power pilots on here (and I'm not going to try any more) that talking to ATC is impractical and anyway addresses the least of our risks. If you monitor Essex or Lakenheath for a bit, however, you will understand why I wrote earlier that if all gliders in East Anglia did so, they would be swamped.
By the way, the only powered aircraft I saw were in VMC, well below cloud. The closest was a few hundred metres away, at my height - about 1500 feet, just south of Ridgewell, and it looked like he had just flown over Ridgewell - where we were winch launching, and displaying the correct signal for what its worth. And they think we take risks!
Regards - Chris N.
============================
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Gliding in Cloud in the 50s.
Extract from memoirs.
One Saturday afternoon at Farnborough I found myself sitting in the right seat of the ETPS Sedburg glider with Bill Bedford, the Harrier test pilot, in the left. Bill was an enthusiastic glider pilot and at the time held several British gliding records for height and distance. We released from an aero tow somewhere near Guildford under a growing cumulus cloud and were soon rapidly gaining height in the cloud. The air temperature kept reducing with increasing altitude and we began to wonder how much colder we could become before leaving the cloud.
The glider had a battery driven artificial horizon and direction indicator and Bill had been doing a good job with these instruments. But without us realising it initially, the battery was going flat and the AH started to lean over. Bill followed the AH until I noticed that the turn indicator was not making sense. Soon after we entered a steep spiral dive and speed rapidly increased. I watched in horror as the airspeed went on up over the red line speed of 92 Kts. Markings around the dial of the ASI were from 20 kts to 110 kts with a gap around the bottom 30 degrees of the dial. I watched the needle go around through the gap and continue until it was showing 25 Kts the second time around.
The airflow noise was very high and I was using both hands pulling on the air-brake lever with the feeling that if I pulled any harder I would break something. We hurtled out through the cloud base still well nose down and directly over the city of Guildford. Bill slowly brought the nose up and as the speed thankfully reduced we zoomed up to cloud base again. By now the AH was unusable and there was no way we were going to re-enter the cloud.
We recognised that we were now too low to glide upwind to Farnborough so Bill elected to try to glide downwind to the airfield at Dunsfold just visible in the distance. We hoped to be able to pick up some rising air on the way. Our gliding angle was obviously too high for us to reach Dunsfold directly so we headed off a little towards another cumulus hoping for some lift beneath it. But we were disappointed and realised that a forced landing was now most probable.
It was the time of the year when all of the wheat fields in the area were being harvested and there were bales of straw all over. We spotted a green field beyond a small forest and decided that this was to be our place to land. Having committed ourselves to this green field, there was then nowhere else to go. Alas we soon began to see that it was a wheat-field ready for harvesting.
I tightened my harness as much as possible expecting a sudden stop and that was just as well. Bill levelled off the glider just above the wheat and it brushed us loudly underneath. Eventually stalling we sank down into the wheat until our sight line was below the wheat. Suddenly the wings sank into the wheat and we stopped immediately with very rapid deceleration. The last foot or two was a vertical drop on to the ground with a teeth jarring crunch.
Suddenly all was silence except that in the distance we could hear a few people yelling to each other. We had disappeared from anyone's view and local observers all believed from the noise generated by our arrestment that we had severely crashed.
Bill and I looked at each other in relief and having assured ourselves that we were alright we climbed out to find that we were just tall enough to see over the top of the wheat. We carefully made our way along the rows of wheat in the general direction of a farm house not far away with Bill explaining that it would be normal for the farmer to extract compensation for that portion of his crop knocked down.
Soon we were being treated to a cup of tea in the farmhouse whilst curious locals turned up from all directions. Someone had reported a crash to police and soon several police cars approached. Two policeman turned up on bicycles. One came on a horse. Then came an ambulance and Bill was able to talk the ambulance crew into giving him a few swigs of medicinal brandy. The policemen were eager to help so we used them to help manhandle the wings off the glider and move them and the fuselage into the farmer's barn ready for retrieval next day.
All that remained was the completion of an incident report and a structural inspection of the glider for overstress. It was pronounced airworthy. Two weeks later it was used to give the Duke of Edinborough his first flight in a glider.
--------------------------------
Then there was the time when I was enjoying the challenges of glider flying in the ETPS Olympia over Farnborough seeing lots of green ball as I climbed in a growing Cu. Niggling buffet at the normal soaring speed gradually increased in intensity and demanded my attention. A quick glance away from the instruments was enough to see extensive ice accretion along a wing leading edge and around the nose. I could not believe that the extent of icing had not reduced the gliding capabilities of the Olympia to that of a brick.
Straightening up soon had me out of the side of the cloud, now with maximum red ball, plunging down to below freezing level. Big chunks of ice started to break away creating another hazzard and I was much relieved that none of the chunks hit the tail. It occurred to me that the chunks of ice were probably big enough to reach the ground so I endeavoured to avoid overflying built up areas for a while as I made my way back to Farnborough.
----------------------------------------
Then again in the Olympia in cloud over Farnborough I was startled to hear 4 engines with noisy props approaching. I wanted out of that cloud in a hurry but not soon enough before the roar of the close pass of an aircraft reached a crescendo and then slowly died away at about the same rate as the lowering of my racing heart pulse rate. I now wonder why I didn't roll over and pull through away from the approaching menace.
I am now cured of flying gliders in cloud!
Extract from memoirs.
One Saturday afternoon at Farnborough I found myself sitting in the right seat of the ETPS Sedburg glider with Bill Bedford, the Harrier test pilot, in the left. Bill was an enthusiastic glider pilot and at the time held several British gliding records for height and distance. We released from an aero tow somewhere near Guildford under a growing cumulus cloud and were soon rapidly gaining height in the cloud. The air temperature kept reducing with increasing altitude and we began to wonder how much colder we could become before leaving the cloud.
The glider had a battery driven artificial horizon and direction indicator and Bill had been doing a good job with these instruments. But without us realising it initially, the battery was going flat and the AH started to lean over. Bill followed the AH until I noticed that the turn indicator was not making sense. Soon after we entered a steep spiral dive and speed rapidly increased. I watched in horror as the airspeed went on up over the red line speed of 92 Kts. Markings around the dial of the ASI were from 20 kts to 110 kts with a gap around the bottom 30 degrees of the dial. I watched the needle go around through the gap and continue until it was showing 25 Kts the second time around.
The airflow noise was very high and I was using both hands pulling on the air-brake lever with the feeling that if I pulled any harder I would break something. We hurtled out through the cloud base still well nose down and directly over the city of Guildford. Bill slowly brought the nose up and as the speed thankfully reduced we zoomed up to cloud base again. By now the AH was unusable and there was no way we were going to re-enter the cloud.
We recognised that we were now too low to glide upwind to Farnborough so Bill elected to try to glide downwind to the airfield at Dunsfold just visible in the distance. We hoped to be able to pick up some rising air on the way. Our gliding angle was obviously too high for us to reach Dunsfold directly so we headed off a little towards another cumulus hoping for some lift beneath it. But we were disappointed and realised that a forced landing was now most probable.
It was the time of the year when all of the wheat fields in the area were being harvested and there were bales of straw all over. We spotted a green field beyond a small forest and decided that this was to be our place to land. Having committed ourselves to this green field, there was then nowhere else to go. Alas we soon began to see that it was a wheat-field ready for harvesting.
I tightened my harness as much as possible expecting a sudden stop and that was just as well. Bill levelled off the glider just above the wheat and it brushed us loudly underneath. Eventually stalling we sank down into the wheat until our sight line was below the wheat. Suddenly the wings sank into the wheat and we stopped immediately with very rapid deceleration. The last foot or two was a vertical drop on to the ground with a teeth jarring crunch.
Suddenly all was silence except that in the distance we could hear a few people yelling to each other. We had disappeared from anyone's view and local observers all believed from the noise generated by our arrestment that we had severely crashed.
Bill and I looked at each other in relief and having assured ourselves that we were alright we climbed out to find that we were just tall enough to see over the top of the wheat. We carefully made our way along the rows of wheat in the general direction of a farm house not far away with Bill explaining that it would be normal for the farmer to extract compensation for that portion of his crop knocked down.
Soon we were being treated to a cup of tea in the farmhouse whilst curious locals turned up from all directions. Someone had reported a crash to police and soon several police cars approached. Two policeman turned up on bicycles. One came on a horse. Then came an ambulance and Bill was able to talk the ambulance crew into giving him a few swigs of medicinal brandy. The policemen were eager to help so we used them to help manhandle the wings off the glider and move them and the fuselage into the farmer's barn ready for retrieval next day.
All that remained was the completion of an incident report and a structural inspection of the glider for overstress. It was pronounced airworthy. Two weeks later it was used to give the Duke of Edinborough his first flight in a glider.
--------------------------------
Then there was the time when I was enjoying the challenges of glider flying in the ETPS Olympia over Farnborough seeing lots of green ball as I climbed in a growing Cu. Niggling buffet at the normal soaring speed gradually increased in intensity and demanded my attention. A quick glance away from the instruments was enough to see extensive ice accretion along a wing leading edge and around the nose. I could not believe that the extent of icing had not reduced the gliding capabilities of the Olympia to that of a brick.
Straightening up soon had me out of the side of the cloud, now with maximum red ball, plunging down to below freezing level. Big chunks of ice started to break away creating another hazzard and I was much relieved that none of the chunks hit the tail. It occurred to me that the chunks of ice were probably big enough to reach the ground so I endeavoured to avoid overflying built up areas for a while as I made my way back to Farnborough.
----------------------------------------
Then again in the Olympia in cloud over Farnborough I was startled to hear 4 engines with noisy props approaching. I wanted out of that cloud in a hurry but not soon enough before the roar of the close pass of an aircraft reached a crescendo and then slowly died away at about the same rate as the lowering of my racing heart pulse rate. I now wonder why I didn't roll over and pull through away from the approaching menace.
I am now cured of flying gliders in cloud!
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I have never flown a glider so would not comment on gliding but I have to say it was totally unknown to me that i may well meet a glider in IMC in the UK. I fly a fair amount of time in class G in IMC and always plan a route to get a LARS service for safety reasons. Now that I may encounter a glider in cloud (very rare I understand) which probably is not painting on radar, how do i plan my routes to be safets possible?
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ChrisN
If you persist in your current approach and attitude, I would not be surprised to find an article on the lines of the following in one of the tabloids somtime in the future.......
"Reckless Glider Pilots Endanger Airliners
By A. Reptile, Staff Writer
Passengers travelling on airliners expect the highest possible levels of safety and may assume that they are travelling in an environment where risks are reduced to the minimum.
However, research by the Daily Bugle shows that there is a serious risk to airliners, caused by a reckless minority of glider pilots who deliberately fly in clouds without establishing radio communications with air traffic control.
Airlines are equipped with electronic devices that show air traffic controllers where they are and what height they are flying at. When aircraft are flying in cloud, the pilots rely on air traffic controllers to instruct them where to fly safely.
However, some glider pilots refuse to talk to air traffic control, because they say that the rules do not oblige them to do this. They also decline to carry the electronic devices that allow air traffic controllers to track them like airliners, because they are said to be too expensive. Also, glider pilots do not have to train for an instrument rating to fly in clouds, unlike airline pilots, which we find amazing.
This means that your airline flight could be endangered by a reckless glider pilot and the Daily Bugle has discovered that the law currently allows no action to be taken against them.
The Bugle is starting a petition to change this archaic law, which dates back to times when there was a lot less air traffic than today and we encourage you to complete the coupon below and send it to us.
We will make sure that this petition is delivered to the Prime Minister and we will not remain silent on this issue until he takes positive action to close this legal loophole and bringing gliding under the control of the CAA, just like airlines are."
If you persist in your current approach and attitude, I would not be surprised to find an article on the lines of the following in one of the tabloids somtime in the future.......
"Reckless Glider Pilots Endanger Airliners
By A. Reptile, Staff Writer
Passengers travelling on airliners expect the highest possible levels of safety and may assume that they are travelling in an environment where risks are reduced to the minimum.
However, research by the Daily Bugle shows that there is a serious risk to airliners, caused by a reckless minority of glider pilots who deliberately fly in clouds without establishing radio communications with air traffic control.
Airlines are equipped with electronic devices that show air traffic controllers where they are and what height they are flying at. When aircraft are flying in cloud, the pilots rely on air traffic controllers to instruct them where to fly safely.
However, some glider pilots refuse to talk to air traffic control, because they say that the rules do not oblige them to do this. They also decline to carry the electronic devices that allow air traffic controllers to track them like airliners, because they are said to be too expensive. Also, glider pilots do not have to train for an instrument rating to fly in clouds, unlike airline pilots, which we find amazing.
This means that your airline flight could be endangered by a reckless glider pilot and the Daily Bugle has discovered that the law currently allows no action to be taken against them.
The Bugle is starting a petition to change this archaic law, which dates back to times when there was a lot less air traffic than today and we encourage you to complete the coupon below and send it to us.
We will make sure that this petition is delivered to the Prime Minister and we will not remain silent on this issue until he takes positive action to close this legal loophole and bringing gliding under the control of the CAA, just like airlines are."
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The main danger is between GA light aircraft and gliders. Being an airline pilot and a glider pilot I would say that the possibility of conflict between an airliner and a glider is minimal. Airliners usually climb rapidly through the lower levels and their departure routings are well known to glider pilots. However the Coventry approach scenario mentioned earlier is more likely where a GA aircraft is climbed to avoid a 737 with the potential conflict of the GA aircraft with a glider.
The main point to come out of this thread is the need for educating power pilots that they could conflict with gliders in cloud. I have to say that when I am gliding it is apparent that power pilots don't keep a good enough look out in VMC, let alone the problems of look out in cloud! When you are close to cumulus clouds at lower altitudes keep a good look out, there will be gliders around!
Also I would not consider flying in CB's in a glider or an airliner! It's those fluffy white cotton wool clouds that glider pilots go for!
The main point to come out of this thread is the need for educating power pilots that they could conflict with gliders in cloud. I have to say that when I am gliding it is apparent that power pilots don't keep a good enough look out in VMC, let alone the problems of look out in cloud! When you are close to cumulus clouds at lower altitudes keep a good look out, there will be gliders around!
Also I would not consider flying in CB's in a glider or an airliner! It's those fluffy white cotton wool clouds that glider pilots go for!
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Final 3 Greens someone could write a much more scary story about commercial traffic encountering fast-jet [military] traffic, other commercial traffic or GA in uncontrolled airspace in the north-east if they wanted to...
Infact they did - you can find quite a few examples in the Airprox bulletins.
I didn't see many (2) glider -v- commercial ops reports in there though
See HERE
This is from that report (I hope they don't mind me posting it)
The grid at Figure 4 shows which groups conflicted and how often.
The yellow column shows the pilot group (or their air traffic controllers) that filed Airprox while those in the green row represent the other party.
Positioning in either grouping does not imply being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – it is just how they met.
For example, ‘GA Helicopter’ pilots met ‘GA Private or Club’ pilots on five occasions, the latter group meeting each other 20 times.
The largest change on results from 2003 was experienced by pilots of scheduled passenger airliners who filed on 10 more occasions.
Whilst this is an increase over the preceding year, the 2004 total of 64 is 12 less than the 2002 figure, illustrating the variability of such data.
Infact they did - you can find quite a few examples in the Airprox bulletins.
I didn't see many (2) glider -v- commercial ops reports in there though
See HERE
This is from that report (I hope they don't mind me posting it)
The grid at Figure 4 shows which groups conflicted and how often.
The yellow column shows the pilot group (or their air traffic controllers) that filed Airprox while those in the green row represent the other party.
Positioning in either grouping does not imply being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – it is just how they met.
For example, ‘GA Helicopter’ pilots met ‘GA Private or Club’ pilots on five occasions, the latter group meeting each other 20 times.
The largest change on results from 2003 was experienced by pilots of scheduled passenger airliners who filed on 10 more occasions.
Whilst this is an increase over the preceding year, the 2004 total of 64 is 12 less than the 2002 figure, illustrating the variability of such data.
Join Date: Sep 2003
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I see from your post, Final 3 Greens, that I'm not being over cynical after all! I assume rightly or wrongly that your post reflects what you think should happen?
I've flew my Swallow glider in cloud years ago, had no problems (even without training "there is a world of difference between gliders and powered aircraft"), and considered the risk was tiny then and now. I consider the risk of collision far higher in an overhead join on a busy day than ever it is between a glider and powered aircraft in cloud outside controlled airspace. But then I'm a realist, not an alarmist
SS
I've flew my Swallow glider in cloud years ago, had no problems (even without training "there is a world of difference between gliders and powered aircraft"), and considered the risk was tiny then and now. I consider the risk of collision far higher in an overhead join on a busy day than ever it is between a glider and powered aircraft in cloud outside controlled airspace. But then I'm a realist, not an alarmist
SS
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I'm really baffled by the attitude of some people: It's no good shouting you need to contact ATC...blah blah blah.... on which frequency do you suggest? There is a dedicated cloud flying frequency... 130.4.. If people are so worried by the relatively low risk, then why don't YOU switch to 130.4 and ask if there is anyone at a location flying in cloud or just listen - you'll soon hear.
As I said in my earlier posts, those of us who do fly in clouds follow a set protocol, regardless of how infrequent we do it: Call on the enroute freq before entering; change to 130.4; State call sign, location(!), height (QNH) and entering cloud.... Then height info (QNH) every 500', announcing clear of cloud at (whatever) height then change to enroute!
I did a quick 150 km route yesterday, and the conditions were actually right for a 1500' cloud climb, in a single solitary isolated cu. Within a 25 nautical mile radius of the point I entered cloud I had the following possible ATC stations:
Middle Wallop
Thruxton
Boscombe Down (shut at weekends)
Popham
Farnborough
Lasham
Benson
Booker
White Waltham
Blackbush
Sandhill Farm
Abingdon
Upavon
Salisbury DAIS
Rivar Hill
oh and London Information
Apart from being able to identify where I actually was at the time by this list; what ATC would anyone like to suggest that I notify?
I also had some class A above me at FL65 (but didn't go anywhere near this high (obviously
)
While I was on 130.4 yesterday I heard at least 1 power pilot blind call 130.4, and state that he was enroute from somewhere to somewhere else stating he would be going IMC at Oxford at approx 4800 on the Cotswold QNH and ask if there was anyone in the vicinity climbing in cloud?.
I must admit that it's the first time I've heard it, but I don't tend to spend too long in cloud anyway!!
For me it was however a revelation.... there is a frequency to check if anyone is climbing in cloud...130.4
As I said in my earlier posts, those of us who do fly in clouds follow a set protocol, regardless of how infrequent we do it: Call on the enroute freq before entering; change to 130.4; State call sign, location(!), height (QNH) and entering cloud.... Then height info (QNH) every 500', announcing clear of cloud at (whatever) height then change to enroute!
I did a quick 150 km route yesterday, and the conditions were actually right for a 1500' cloud climb, in a single solitary isolated cu. Within a 25 nautical mile radius of the point I entered cloud I had the following possible ATC stations:
Middle Wallop
Thruxton
Boscombe Down (shut at weekends)
Popham
Farnborough
Lasham
Benson
Booker
White Waltham
Blackbush
Sandhill Farm
Abingdon
Upavon
Salisbury DAIS
Rivar Hill
oh and London Information
Apart from being able to identify where I actually was at the time by this list; what ATC would anyone like to suggest that I notify?
I also had some class A above me at FL65 (but didn't go anywhere near this high (obviously
)While I was on 130.4 yesterday I heard at least 1 power pilot blind call 130.4, and state that he was enroute from somewhere to somewhere else stating he would be going IMC at Oxford at approx 4800 on the Cotswold QNH and ask if there was anyone in the vicinity climbing in cloud?.
I must admit that it's the first time I've heard it, but I don't tend to spend too long in cloud anyway!!
For me it was however a revelation.... there is a frequency to check if anyone is climbing in cloud...130.4
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Unfortunately Nimbus many people here only hear or read what they want to. I thought I wrote a reply to Finals 3 Greens but it has been ignored. You are clearly an experienced glider pilot and have made some very useful contributions to this discussion. I have found that having experience in other areas of flying is very useful in my main job as an airline pilot. Too many pilots have too narrow a view and that can compromise their flying safety. For example the lack of knowledge of some power pilots of what glider pilots can do in or out of cloud.
Avoid imitations
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Nimbus,
With regard to choice of which agency to call on the radio, don't forget that GA pilots have to make that very same choice on every flight in Class G!
(I'm not sure what you mean by "enroute frequency" in view of your question about which agency to call. It is possible that what I write below may be exactly what you do already, if so my apology for trying to teach you to suck eggs).
It sounds like in the particular circumstance you quoted, the best choice in Class G would probably be Farnborough Radar but without knowing your exact route I'm not certain. I'm sure you are aware that Benson can also offer a radar service, as do Brize Norton. Transitting GA routinely works those units as appropriate. All you would need to give is present position, altitude and route so it could be passed on to other traffic. I'm NOT suggesting you give up 130.4 altogether, btw.
Do emphasise that you would be going IMC because that is the whole point of the discussion, otherwise it's the usual rules of "See and avoid" in Class G.
GA pilots routing IFR / IMC near Farnborough are highly likely to be working them. ATC would treat you just like any other aircraft (hopefully you WILL appear on their radar) and they would advise other pilots working them of your presence. Obviously, it's your decision after calling them whether you stay on that frequency or change back to 130.4. If you become VMC and / or leave the area it would be great if you could call them back and say so. Safety improved for everyone, just a couple of quick calls.
Your profile says you have a PPL and fly IFR capable helicopters; there must be IMC rated / IR qualified pilots around your neck of the woods. Why not discuss this locally or ask for some local advice?
Thanks for at least discussing it here, some valuable inputs.
With regard to choice of which agency to call on the radio, don't forget that GA pilots have to make that very same choice on every flight in Class G!
(I'm not sure what you mean by "enroute frequency" in view of your question about which agency to call. It is possible that what I write below may be exactly what you do already, if so my apology for trying to teach you to suck eggs).
It sounds like in the particular circumstance you quoted, the best choice in Class G would probably be Farnborough Radar but without knowing your exact route I'm not certain. I'm sure you are aware that Benson can also offer a radar service, as do Brize Norton. Transitting GA routinely works those units as appropriate. All you would need to give is present position, altitude and route so it could be passed on to other traffic. I'm NOT suggesting you give up 130.4 altogether, btw.
Do emphasise that you would be going IMC because that is the whole point of the discussion, otherwise it's the usual rules of "See and avoid" in Class G.
GA pilots routing IFR / IMC near Farnborough are highly likely to be working them. ATC would treat you just like any other aircraft (hopefully you WILL appear on their radar) and they would advise other pilots working them of your presence. Obviously, it's your decision after calling them whether you stay on that frequency or change back to 130.4. If you become VMC and / or leave the area it would be great if you could call them back and say so. Safety improved for everyone, just a couple of quick calls.
Your profile says you have a PPL and fly IFR capable helicopters; there must be IMC rated / IR qualified pilots around your neck of the woods. Why not discuss this locally or ask for some local advice?
Thanks for at least discussing it here, some valuable inputs.