Gliders flying in cloud
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Who is "we" in this context?
I would doubt the majority of IFR capable GA aircraft have TCAS. Of the people I know who regularly fly IFR/IMC in G airspace only one has TCAS in his current aircraft AFAIK..."
"We" means the company I fly for. An increasing number of operators are fitting TCAS to their aircraft, especially helicopters. Why do you ask?
Nimbus,
"Exactly what percentage of GA aircraft are fitted with TCAS?, or is the use of the royal 'we' a little too regal?"
Nothing regal about me, I'm just a working class pilot trying to minimise risk to myself and my pax. My employer's aircraft have TCAS.
"If TCAS costs soooo much, it would be cheaper to fit another transceiver on a fixed frequency of 130.4, and then you could permanently listen out"
I would doubt the majority of IFR capable GA aircraft have TCAS. Of the people I know who regularly fly IFR/IMC in G airspace only one has TCAS in his current aircraft AFAIK..."
"We" means the company I fly for. An increasing number of operators are fitting TCAS to their aircraft, especially helicopters. Why do you ask?
Nimbus,
"Exactly what percentage of GA aircraft are fitted with TCAS?, or is the use of the royal 'we' a little too regal?"
Nothing regal about me, I'm just a working class pilot trying to minimise risk to myself and my pax. My employer's aircraft have TCAS.
"If TCAS costs soooo much, it would be cheaper to fit another transceiver on a fixed frequency of 130.4, and then you could permanently listen out"
My comments were aimed at privately registered and flown light aircraft, and I still advacoate that the majority of these aircraft are not fitted with TCAS.
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The Prof is spot on. When I got my PPL in the 1980's as an experienced helicopter pilot I just had to do 12 hours and a check flight. I was then licenced to fly with a passenger for a year and could validate my PPL merely by flying 5 hours per year. There are a lot of very inexperienced PPL's out there.
Further to the Prof's list you can not fly with a passenger unless you are qualified to do so. The following is an extract from the BGA's rules: Before carrying a club member in a glider, the pilot in charge must be authorised by his CFI and hold a Bronze badge or higher certificate and have at least 50 hours P1 on gliders. To give trial lessons, the pilot must have a Basic Instructor rating or higher instructor rating. The pilot must be in current practice, be familiar with the type of glider and method of launch.
Further to the Prof's list you can not fly with a passenger unless you are qualified to do so. The following is an extract from the BGA's rules: Before carrying a club member in a glider, the pilot in charge must be authorised by his CFI and hold a Bronze badge or higher certificate and have at least 50 hours P1 on gliders. To give trial lessons, the pilot must have a Basic Instructor rating or higher instructor rating. The pilot must be in current practice, be familiar with the type of glider and method of launch.
Hovering AND talking
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Well, from my point of view, the Prof is not spot on!!
I have a JAA PPL(H) for which I have to revalidate my licence every year by taking a skills test. The school/club from which I fly requires 28 day currency for Self-Fly Hire with or without passengers. Sorry Flap 5, but things are a bit different now expecially in the heli world!!
Not saying what is right or wrong; just pointing out that there are difference rules and requirements for different folks!
Cheers
Whirls
I have a JAA PPL(H) for which I have to revalidate my licence every year by taking a skills test. The school/club from which I fly requires 28 day currency for Self-Fly Hire with or without passengers. Sorry Flap 5, but things are a bit different now expecially in the heli world!!
Not saying what is right or wrong; just pointing out that there are difference rules and requirements for different folks!
Cheers
Whirls
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Very True Flap5:
Prof Wrote:
My club's currency requirements is 30 days. After that it's 3 check flights with an half-cat or full cat instructor, and at least one of those flights must include a launch failure. [Edited to add:] Oh an there is the annual assessment; my annual instructor assessment and the cross-country and field landing checks at the start of the season!
Allthough I have a PPL, I have always wondered why the currency requirements appear to be so low for SEP?
I can understand the requirement in gliders (no options for go arounds!), but why so low for PPL? Given the relatively high and soaring cost in the UK for your average PPL pilot to fly, then is there a risk of pilots just maintaining the absolute minimum to maintain the licence and does that mean that there is an increasing tendency for skill fade/more inexperienced pilots flying round the sky?
Prof Wrote:
1. At my club I am not allowed to fly if I am not current. This means (with a Basic Instructor rating) I must have flown within the previous 5 weeks. If not, I must take a flight with an instructor before I am allowed to fly as PIC.
Allthough I have a PPL, I have always wondered why the currency requirements appear to be so low for SEP?
I can understand the requirement in gliders (no options for go arounds!), but why so low for PPL? Given the relatively high and soaring cost in the UK for your average PPL pilot to fly, then is there a risk of pilots just maintaining the absolute minimum to maintain the licence and does that mean that there is an increasing tendency for skill fade/more inexperienced pilots flying round the sky?
pneumono
ultramicroscopic
silicovolcano
coniosis
ultramicroscopic
silicovolcano
coniosis
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The skill set needed to fly gliders is slightly different to that required to fly power.
Once you have gone solo and have moved to single seaters and have begun to cut the apron strings, so to speak, the constant monitoring does not stop.
As an instructor, cross country pilot, advanced aerobatic instructor I am still regularly assessed and have to fly with CFI's, regional examioners etc on a fairly regular basis.
I have to fly a certain number of instructional flights per year and a certain number of instructional hours plus a certain number of solo launches and solo hours per year to retain my instructor rating.
To just be able to get in a glider and fly I have to have completed flights within the previous month. If not, I'm straight into a two seater with the CFI for currency checks at least one of which will be launch emergencies.
There is a very strong ethos of safety and constant monitoring for all pilots.
Though we don't legally have to have a license there are various qualifications that a pilot goes through from ab initio to early solo to building more experience.
The safety culture is the strongest I have come across in aviation and the training standards are very high.
The various stages in development are too long to list but from more info you might find a visit to the BGA website useful.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/
Once you have gone solo and have moved to single seaters and have begun to cut the apron strings, so to speak, the constant monitoring does not stop.
As an instructor, cross country pilot, advanced aerobatic instructor I am still regularly assessed and have to fly with CFI's, regional examioners etc on a fairly regular basis.
I have to fly a certain number of instructional flights per year and a certain number of instructional hours plus a certain number of solo launches and solo hours per year to retain my instructor rating.
To just be able to get in a glider and fly I have to have completed flights within the previous month. If not, I'm straight into a two seater with the CFI for currency checks at least one of which will be launch emergencies.
There is a very strong ethos of safety and constant monitoring for all pilots.
Though we don't legally have to have a license there are various qualifications that a pilot goes through from ab initio to early solo to building more experience.
The safety culture is the strongest I have come across in aviation and the training standards are very high.
The various stages in development are too long to list but from more info you might find a visit to the BGA website useful.
http://www.gliding.co.uk/
I used to do cloud climbs in gliders on nothing but a T and S when I was young and stupid. I stopped when I saw another glider in the same cloud one day. And considering that fair weather cumulus clouds are pretty dense, that was f#####g close!
And please don't try and convince me that cloud climbing is safe - a friend of mine died doing it.
And please don't try and convince me that cloud climbing is safe - a friend of mine died doing it.
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No flying is safe .... I've had a couple of friends die doing it!
But risk is relative, and you have to make you own mind up as to what is an acceptable level with all things in life; flying is just one of them.
SS
But risk is relative, and you have to make you own mind up as to what is an acceptable level with all things in life; flying is just one of them.
SS
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"The safety culture is the strongest I have come across in aviation and the training standards are very high"
Did not keep some of you out of a circuit at a licenced airfield I departed from recently. Climbing away downwind had to report gliders conflicting with expected arrivals and departures. Please do not adopt a "better than the powered pilot" attitude, it is untenable.
Did not keep some of you out of a circuit at a licenced airfield I departed from recently. Climbing away downwind had to report gliders conflicting with expected arrivals and departures. Please do not adopt a "better than the powered pilot" attitude, it is untenable.
Avoid imitations
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Best we keep that sort of stuff for another thread. Or revive one of the old "us v. them" threads ....
There's mud to be slung both ways, but so far we were doing quite well at keeping it out of the discussion. It's generally counterproductive.
There's mud to be slung both ways, but so far we were doing quite well at keeping it out of the discussion. It's generally counterproductive.
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I couldn't agree more Shy Torque. Flying in all its forms is wonderful (mind you jumping from Angel falls with a bat suit and parachute doesn't exactly float my boat 
), but mud flinging is best left to those who never get away from it (ie earth bound folk). We are privileged to be able to take to the skies however we do it, so let's not start pointing fingers or try to be elitist! 
SS
), but mud flinging is best left to those who never get away from it (ie earth bound folk). We are privileged to be able to take to the skies however we do it, so let's not start pointing fingers or try to be elitist! SS
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There is a down side to this. Stucturally older gliders were weaker, and this was reflected in their relativly low VNE. Modern gliders have by comparison a much higher VNE. Although older gliders were perhaps more forgiving, once speed did start to build up, it didn't take long to reach VNE.
Most gliders are fitted with a single 12V7AH battery; some have 14V 7AH; some have a reserve....
Once you start adding GPS systems, horizons (which can draw 1.5A on start and 1A in a steady state), Mode C transponders etc then electrical endurance for these long flights (where you may be more reliant on additional instruments) does becomes a issue.
Once you start adding GPS systems, horizons (which can draw 1.5A on start and 1A in a steady state), Mode C transponders etc then electrical endurance for these long flights (where you may be more reliant on additional instruments) does becomes a issue.
If your AI draws 1 A, is it unreasonable to expect you to fit a transponder to fly in cloud? In fact, is it unreasonable to expect you to fit a transponder to fly at all?
As a power pilot, I'd rather you had a transponder and said nothing to ATC than vice versa. At least then they can tell me that you're there, rather than being told in the middle of a 300 mile IFR flight to look out for a glider that just reported going into cloud over Little Smallington.
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[QUOTE]quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most gliders are fitted with a single 12V7AH battery; some have 14V 7AH; some have a reserve....
Once you start adding GPS systems, horizons (which can draw 1.5A on start and 1A in a steady state), Mode C transponders etc then electrical endurance for these long flights (where you may be more reliant on additional instruments) does becomes a issue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's go back to this bit for a moment. Filser's TRT600 LAST draws about 0.2 A at 12 V.
If your AI draws 1 A, is it unreasonable to expect you to fit a transponder to fly in cloud? In fact, is it unreasonable to expect you to fit a transponder to fly at all?
[QUOTE]
OK lets look at the practically:
The typical power budget for a glider is as follows:
GPS - 150mA (it's common for most competition ac to be fitted with 2)
Flight Director/PDA/Audio Vario(based on cambridge 302) - 1A
Radio - 500mA (RX) 1.8A on (TX) - Based con Filser ATR600
Normally steady state = 1.650A;
Max on radio Transmit ~3A.
A fully charged (new) 7AH battery will provide ~ 7Ah for 1 hour or
1 Ah for 7 hours (rated at 10 Hr rated as most 7AH batteries are)
As a ball park figure, and based on these figures most 12V 7Ah batteries will last about 5-6 hours before the voltage begins falls to a point which begins to be an issue and probably about 7 hours before equipment begins to fail. This is normally about right for club flying, although many aircraft are fitted with an additional 2v cell to provide a greater potential, and some are fitted with 2 batteries, to ensure that there is sufficiant voltage available for a full flying day.
For the competition pilots amonst us, and for those whose aircraft are equipped for cloud flying:
add into this a secondary GPS/Logger at about 150mA
an AH at 1.5A start/1A sustained
and a typical transponder at between 400-800mA (not 0.2A as you suggest - See the full technical manual for the TRT600 at http://www.filser.de/handbuch/trt600instmane.pdf.
Lets just assume that there is an additional load of 150mA for a competition glider which draws an additional 1.5A when the transponder is fitted and the AH is switched on.
The maximum current drawn could be as high as 5.3A but likely to be about 2.3 A.
In fact 2.5A is used as a design guide.
Whichever way you look at it, an additional 400/700mA load due to a transponder on such a fragile power budget IS significant. It can mean the difference between systems working at the end of a 7 hour competition flying day or not working. And it is more important to maintain a workable supply to the Radio/Logger/GPS at the end of a flying day, than fit additional instrumentation, when there are procedures in place mitigating the need for it (calling on 130.4)
...Oh and as a PS....I design glider electrical systems!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most gliders are fitted with a single 12V7AH battery; some have 14V 7AH; some have a reserve....
Once you start adding GPS systems, horizons (which can draw 1.5A on start and 1A in a steady state), Mode C transponders etc then electrical endurance for these long flights (where you may be more reliant on additional instruments) does becomes a issue.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's go back to this bit for a moment. Filser's TRT600 LAST draws about 0.2 A at 12 V.
If your AI draws 1 A, is it unreasonable to expect you to fit a transponder to fly in cloud? In fact, is it unreasonable to expect you to fit a transponder to fly at all?
[QUOTE]
OK lets look at the practically:
The typical power budget for a glider is as follows:
GPS - 150mA (it's common for most competition ac to be fitted with 2)
Flight Director/PDA/Audio Vario(based on cambridge 302) - 1A
Radio - 500mA (RX) 1.8A on (TX) - Based con Filser ATR600
Normally steady state = 1.650A;
Max on radio Transmit ~3A.
A fully charged (new) 7AH battery will provide ~ 7Ah for 1 hour or
1 Ah for 7 hours (rated at 10 Hr rated as most 7AH batteries are)
As a ball park figure, and based on these figures most 12V 7Ah batteries will last about 5-6 hours before the voltage begins falls to a point which begins to be an issue and probably about 7 hours before equipment begins to fail. This is normally about right for club flying, although many aircraft are fitted with an additional 2v cell to provide a greater potential, and some are fitted with 2 batteries, to ensure that there is sufficiant voltage available for a full flying day.
For the competition pilots amonst us, and for those whose aircraft are equipped for cloud flying:
add into this a secondary GPS/Logger at about 150mA
an AH at 1.5A start/1A sustained
and a typical transponder at between 400-800mA (not 0.2A as you suggest - See the full technical manual for the TRT600 at http://www.filser.de/handbuch/trt600instmane.pdf.
Lets just assume that there is an additional load of 150mA for a competition glider which draws an additional 1.5A when the transponder is fitted and the AH is switched on.
The maximum current drawn could be as high as 5.3A but likely to be about 2.3 A.
In fact 2.5A is used as a design guide.
Whichever way you look at it, an additional 400/700mA load due to a transponder on such a fragile power budget IS significant. It can mean the difference between systems working at the end of a 7 hour competition flying day or not working. And it is more important to maintain a workable supply to the Radio/Logger/GPS at the end of a flying day, than fit additional instrumentation, when there are procedures in place mitigating the need for it (calling on 130.4)
...Oh and as a PS....I design glider electrical systems!
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just a question...
in other countries, such as NZ, don't gliders have to have transponders fitted? Perhaps not, I'm not sure....
But, if so, does anyone know how the power budget in gliders is managed over there, or anywhere where transponders are mandatory in gliders?
in other countries, such as NZ, don't gliders have to have transponders fitted? Perhaps not, I'm not sure....
But, if so, does anyone know how the power budget in gliders is managed over there, or anywhere where transponders are mandatory in gliders?
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No not transponders; FLARM has been introduced into NZ. It draws less than 80mA wich is about an 1/8th of that of a conventional transponder.
see my earlier post or go to: http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
see my earlier post or go to: http://www.flarm.com/index_en.html
Avoid imitations
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Oh dear, Nimbus! This statement shows where your true priorities lie:
Quote: "And it is more important to maintain a workable supply to the Radio/Logger/GPS at the end of a flying day, than fit additional instrumentation, when there are procedures in place mitigating the need for it (calling on 130.4)"
You appear to completely underestimate the danger of relying on a little used frequency to provide separation from GA in cloud. You are flying with little or no protection from GA. You haven't said where you fly from, but I suggest you speak to a controller at a busy unit such as Coventry and ask their view.
I spent last Sunday and the last three days of this week flying around southern and central UK. Each day our TCAS screen was extremely busy with GA aircraft flying VMC / IMC at MSA up to FL55, as were we. I would think that not ONE of them was on the frequency you insist on relying on for your safety.
I did listen out on 130.4 when I could, which wasn't often due to both radios being in use for ATC frequencies. As far as I am concerned, it's not viable for us to do so. I proved to myself (and my bemused colleague) that we simply cannot leave 130.4 dialled up due to ATC requirements. Unfortunately the chances are that we will therefore miss a relevant call from a glider (I never heard ONE glider call on 130.4 or any other frequency, btw).
I wish you safe and lucky flying
And myself
Quote: "And it is more important to maintain a workable supply to the Radio/Logger/GPS at the end of a flying day, than fit additional instrumentation, when there are procedures in place mitigating the need for it (calling on 130.4)"
You appear to completely underestimate the danger of relying on a little used frequency to provide separation from GA in cloud. You are flying with little or no protection from GA. You haven't said where you fly from, but I suggest you speak to a controller at a busy unit such as Coventry and ask their view.
I spent last Sunday and the last three days of this week flying around southern and central UK. Each day our TCAS screen was extremely busy with GA aircraft flying VMC / IMC at MSA up to FL55, as were we. I would think that not ONE of them was on the frequency you insist on relying on for your safety.
I did listen out on 130.4 when I could, which wasn't often due to both radios being in use for ATC frequencies. As far as I am concerned, it's not viable for us to do so. I proved to myself (and my bemused colleague) that we simply cannot leave 130.4 dialled up due to ATC requirements. Unfortunately the chances are that we will therefore miss a relevant call from a glider (I never heard ONE glider call on 130.4 or any other frequency, btw).
I wish you safe and lucky flying
And myself
...Oh and as a PS....I design glider electrical systems!
A very well reasoned answer, Nimbus, thank you.
And it is more important to maintain a workable supply to the Radio/Logger/GPS at the end of a flying day, than fit additional instrumentation, when there are procedures in place mitigating the need for it (calling on 130.4)
If the power requirement of a transponder reduced the typical battery life by a factor of 3, I could see a case for exempting gliders from the forthcoming requirement to carry them. But at 10-20% of the design electrical load, I can't -- while it is undoubtedly significant, we all make sacrifices to performance to install equipment with a safety benefit.
BTW power consumption data on the TRT600 appears contradictory:
0.2 A on http://www.filser.de/main.php?dat=e_ger_trt600
0.1 A on http://www.filser.de/prospekte/TRT600_prosE.pdf
0.4 A on http://www.filser.de/handbuch/trt600instmane.pdf
I'd imagine a Mode S only environment would significantly decrease the mean power consumption, but that will be a long way off while Mode A/C ground equipment continues to operate.