Is there a pilot onboard?
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The answer is YES, you have a chance. That of course includes proper radio guidance. In a German tv show they have tried it once, letting a completely unexperienced woman and a quite experienced PPL try their luck in a simulator.
While the woman failed miserably, the PPL guy made it.
They didn't say which attempt that way though, kind of pretended it was the first, and of course a real emergency is by far more difficult. There won't be a sim instructor sitting at his radio 24/7 just waiting for the occasional PPL trying to land an airliner and needing guidance.
But in such a real situation it couldn't hurt to try it nevertheless. A little chance is better than certain death of all people on board.
And it's not like you have to land within 5 minutes (usually).
While the woman failed miserably, the PPL guy made it.
They didn't say which attempt that way though, kind of pretended it was the first, and of course a real emergency is by far more difficult. There won't be a sim instructor sitting at his radio 24/7 just waiting for the occasional PPL trying to land an airliner and needing guidance.
But in such a real situation it couldn't hurt to try it nevertheless. A little chance is better than certain death of all people on board.
And it's not like you have to land within 5 minutes (usually).
)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aunt Mabel,
I always liked the bit in Apollo 13 where James Lovell's mother says, "If a fridge could fly, my Jimmy could land it!" (probably misquoted slightly) ........ But then he was a test pilot/astronaut, not a PPL
SS
I always liked the bit in Apollo 13 where James Lovell's mother says, "If a fridge could fly, my Jimmy could land it!" (probably misquoted slightly) ........ But then he was a test pilot/astronaut, not a PPL
SS
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a geeky PPL with a few hundred hours of MSFS time, I'd say I'd be quietly confident of at least not killing everyone in the process.
I come to the flight deck with the advantages of knowing the principles of flying an aircraft, the idea of approach speeds and roundouts and a knowledge that the autopilot would be doing most of the actual flying. Depending on the airfield/kit, landing the aircraft would be a case of twiddling dials, smoothing the landing and stopping the thing from running off the end of the runway
Of course, this would require a pilot on the ground talking to me and providing the experience and knowledge on type. Without that link, anyone would be floundering.
I come to the flight deck with the advantages of knowing the principles of flying an aircraft, the idea of approach speeds and roundouts and a knowledge that the autopilot would be doing most of the actual flying. Depending on the airfield/kit, landing the aircraft would be a case of twiddling dials, smoothing the landing and stopping the thing from running off the end of the runway
Of course, this would require a pilot on the ground talking to me and providing the experience and knowledge on type. Without that link, anyone would be floundering.
Guest
Posts: n/a
What you will discover is that sims (and airliners) are much more sensitive to Pitch and Power.
Couple this to higher inertia and you will "porpoise" very nicely the first few times and over correct like crazy.
The best analogy I can think of is steering a canal barge as opposed to a rowing boat.
You will also discover that flight management system automatics have a few traps for the unwary
Couple this to higher inertia and you will "porpoise" very nicely the first few times and over correct like crazy.
The best analogy I can think of is steering a canal barge as opposed to a rowing boat.
You will also discover that flight management system automatics have a few traps for the unwary
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NW England
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poor Aunt Mabel,
Plucks up courage to ask a question and gets spit roasted in return.
I agree with SSD, if you are a pilot you ought to be able to make a survivable landing, it might be a case of familiarising yourself with the equipment in front of you and playing around a little before you got to finals - not to mention a great deal of RT support.
On a related vein I thought you all may be interested in a comment made to me by a Captain who regularly flies an Airbus and informed me that the auto flight system is used to such an extent these days that their Instrument Ratings are becoming technically invalid - but, over-riding the auto flight system to fly manually can land you in very hot water indeed.
Who'd want to 'fly' like that for a living??
Tony
Plucks up courage to ask a question and gets spit roasted in return.
I agree with SSD, if you are a pilot you ought to be able to make a survivable landing, it might be a case of familiarising yourself with the equipment in front of you and playing around a little before you got to finals - not to mention a great deal of RT support.
On a related vein I thought you all may be interested in a comment made to me by a Captain who regularly flies an Airbus and informed me that the auto flight system is used to such an extent these days that their Instrument Ratings are becoming technically invalid - but, over-riding the auto flight system to fly manually can land you in very hot water indeed.
Who'd want to 'fly' like that for a living??
Tony
Guest
Posts: n/a
Tony
I would be intrigued to know on what basis of fact or opinion you make this assertion.
agree with SSD, if you are a pilot you ought to be able to make a survivable landing, it might be a case of familiarising yourself with the equipment in front of you and playing around a little before you got to finals - not to mention a great deal of RT support.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A 737 is not exactly a difficult aircraft to fly, but the pitch-power couple, followed by the sheer inertia of the thing means it takes a bit of practice.
First time for an inexperienced PPL, I don't think so somehow, but I'm sure they'd be able with guidance to get the autoland working and get it down safely.
Afterall, if I can manage it......!
First time for an inexperienced PPL, I don't think so somehow, but I'm sure they'd be able with guidance to get the autoland working and get it down safely.
Afterall, if I can manage it......!
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I suppose you'd really need to define "land" too.
I mean, do you mean pull off a reasonable landing, with no damage to aircraft and no injuries to passengers?
Or do you simply mean that the aircraft is repairable, and none of the passengers received serious injuries?
I would imagine that the second one would be a lot more achievable than the first one.
I mean, do you mean pull off a reasonable landing, with no damage to aircraft and no injuries to passengers?
Or do you simply mean that the aircraft is repairable, and none of the passengers received serious injuries?
I would imagine that the second one would be a lot more achievable than the first one.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: NW England
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F 3 G
Aunt Mabel asked a hypothetical question and I gave my answer as a personal opinion based on principles of aerodynamics and why (and how) ALL aeroplanes fly (and glide).
If I killed myself doing it you could/would claim to be correct in your outrage that I should even suggest being able to achieve such a thing. But come on, lighten up, it was not a serious post and my reply was based on possible theory, not practice.
I still don't understand the outrage at Aunt mabels original post?
Tony
PS - As the post has become serious, I trust no one objects to me reminding you just how accurately airliners can be flown with just a tiny amount of flight training as was demonstrated on September 11th 4 years ago. I accept that landing was not on the agenda, but there was a degree of accuracy required to achieve their tragic result.
\'Land\' ????
I thought every landing was a good one if you walked away from the aircraft?
OK - you may get carried away from this one, but it would still \'land\'
Tony
Aunt Mabel asked a hypothetical question and I gave my answer as a personal opinion based on principles of aerodynamics and why (and how) ALL aeroplanes fly (and glide).
If I killed myself doing it you could/would claim to be correct in your outrage that I should even suggest being able to achieve such a thing. But come on, lighten up, it was not a serious post and my reply was based on possible theory, not practice.
I still don't understand the outrage at Aunt mabels original post?
Tony
PS - As the post has become serious, I trust no one objects to me reminding you just how accurately airliners can be flown with just a tiny amount of flight training as was demonstrated on September 11th 4 years ago. I accept that landing was not on the agenda, but there was a degree of accuracy required to achieve their tragic result.
\'Land\' ????
I thought every landing was a good one if you walked away from the aircraft?
OK - you may get carried away from this one, but it would still \'land\'
Tony
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 314
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a PPL, and I've been in an A320 sim, and although I might have a better chance than a complete rookie, I think the chances of getting it down and stopping are remote.
The A320 didn't respond much like my PA28, and as for approach speeds, flap limiting speeds, airbrakes etc. - I wouldn't know where to start.
Maybe if the Captain was physically disabled but could answer my questions.....
The A320 didn't respond much like my PA28, and as for approach speeds, flap limiting speeds, airbrakes etc. - I wouldn't know where to start.
Maybe if the Captain was physically disabled but could answer my questions.....
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Lancs, UK
Posts: 129
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Had some time in a commercial 737-200 sim and didn't find it too bad to land. If anything, I thought it was a bit more sensitive in pitch on the flare than the Warrior I'm used to, but I'll put that down to the trimming. It was also a thod in simulated poor weather, with turbulence and a nasty crosswind factored in, but still managed to get it down in one piece. The IMC training was a big help in getting lined up on the runway, but you certainly need to have read up on the speeds, throttle settings etc beforehand. Saying that, it's one thing flying a sim with an instructor next to you and something entirely different doing it for real with numerous terrified passengers (and yourself) on board!
Tried it on one of those 'fairground' simulators at Disney Quest. Failed miserably three times in a row. Still there was the slight problem that the pitch control was reversed so itworked more like a shoot em up computer game. Push to lower THE PICTURE. Why would anyone do that?
I sure would not like to takeoff with the controls reversed!
I sure would not like to takeoff with the controls reversed!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: London UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been watching this one with interest.
I am probably a little more qualified than most on the subject given that in addition to my light aircraft flying I also spend a fair amount of time with 'members of the public' in airline simulators.
I'm afraid to report (as has already been mentioned) that the likely answer is an emphatic 'No!'. The issue is not skill related but simply put, given the likely environment/condition that we are talking about any one tiny feature of the the aircraft systems might stump the would-be pilot.
The Helios crash highlighted this a little since it would appear that the student pilot/cabin crew made repeated distress calls but on a frequency that no-one could hear.
Additionally, reversion modes of auto pilots/autothrust might well cause high levels of workload that simply could not be overcome by a person without experience. I can think of at least two scenarios with the A320, one with the 777 and 747 where a relatively 'normal' AP/ATHR behaviour would flummox an untrained observer.
Basic flying skill is an issue, too. This is not because the airliners are difficult to fly but because they are differnent. The biggest issue I see is a shallowing of the approach below 200' leading to essentially a flypast/stall or an over flare (leading to a similarly unpleasant arrival).
You might not like it but the sad truth is airliners do not fly themselves, nor are they terribly easy to operate. I would, however, wholeheartedly recommend a visit to a simulator to see for yourself.
Tonyh - your Airbus mate is overstating things a little, I'm afraid. The instrument rating (no longer a separate test and therefore invalid on light types) is as much a cerebral and spatial excercise as it is physical.
regards
m
I am probably a little more qualified than most on the subject given that in addition to my light aircraft flying I also spend a fair amount of time with 'members of the public' in airline simulators.
I'm afraid to report (as has already been mentioned) that the likely answer is an emphatic 'No!'. The issue is not skill related but simply put, given the likely environment/condition that we are talking about any one tiny feature of the the aircraft systems might stump the would-be pilot.
The Helios crash highlighted this a little since it would appear that the student pilot/cabin crew made repeated distress calls but on a frequency that no-one could hear.
Additionally, reversion modes of auto pilots/autothrust might well cause high levels of workload that simply could not be overcome by a person without experience. I can think of at least two scenarios with the A320, one with the 777 and 747 where a relatively 'normal' AP/ATHR behaviour would flummox an untrained observer.
Basic flying skill is an issue, too. This is not because the airliners are difficult to fly but because they are differnent. The biggest issue I see is a shallowing of the approach below 200' leading to essentially a flypast/stall or an over flare (leading to a similarly unpleasant arrival).
You might not like it but the sad truth is airliners do not fly themselves, nor are they terribly easy to operate. I would, however, wholeheartedly recommend a visit to a simulator to see for yourself.
Tonyh - your Airbus mate is overstating things a little, I'm afraid. The instrument rating (no longer a separate test and therefore invalid on light types) is as much a cerebral and spatial excercise as it is physical.
regards
m
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: UK
Age: 41
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the time I had 100 hours PPL.
Somebody gave me the chance to play in an A320 sim.
First attempt I landed it no problem on 26L at Gatwick. Second time with a 20 know crosswind - OK it wasn't smooth, but I didn't crash the thing! Third attempt was into Funchal - result as attempt no.2 into LGW! Fourth attempt was taking-off and rocketing under some bridge in Lisbon at 500kts!
OK it was only pitch, bank and throttle, but its not that difficult and I do appreciate the fact that in the real World its a slightly different ball game, but if you have the aptitude I shouldn’t see why, with a bit of help from ATC/pilots over the radio for arming spoilers etc, the average PPL couldn't save everybody on board?
Somebody gave me the chance to play in an A320 sim.
First attempt I landed it no problem on 26L at Gatwick. Second time with a 20 know crosswind - OK it wasn't smooth, but I didn't crash the thing! Third attempt was into Funchal - result as attempt no.2 into LGW! Fourth attempt was taking-off and rocketing under some bridge in Lisbon at 500kts!
OK it was only pitch, bank and throttle, but its not that difficult and I do appreciate the fact that in the real World its a slightly different ball game, but if you have the aptitude I shouldn’t see why, with a bit of help from ATC/pilots over the radio for arming spoilers etc, the average PPL couldn't save everybody on board?
Guest
Posts: n/a
M14
I got "trapped" by using VS mode (cant remember the actual name), without considering the ability of autothrust to deliver the appropriate power - result high altitude upset - not nice (even in a sim)
relatively 'normal' AP/ATHR behaviour would flummox an untrained observer.
(even in a sim)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Here to Eternity
Age: 39
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What would be the chances, though, of your "average" PPL, provided they managed to get a VHF-COM box working on the right frequency, of someone working their way through setting the aircraft up for a 'Cat IIIb'-style autoland?
For example, if our budding hero managed to wrestle the aircraft away from imminent peril, got a radio working and lo, there's a captain of the same type available on 121.5 ... would they stand a chance at programming the FMS in such a way that the aircraft could fly itself to a reasonable (read: survivable) landing? Rather than letting John. Q. Frustrated-PPL loose with however many tons of screaming metal...
Bear in mind I've no real knowledge of AFCS-type stuff, especially when fitted to heavy metal...
-D
For example, if our budding hero managed to wrestle the aircraft away from imminent peril, got a radio working and lo, there's a captain of the same type available on 121.5 ... would they stand a chance at programming the FMS in such a way that the aircraft could fly itself to a reasonable (read: survivable) landing? Rather than letting John. Q. Frustrated-PPL loose with however many tons of screaming metal...
Bear in mind I've no real knowledge of AFCS-type stuff, especially when fitted to heavy metal...
-D