Is there a pilot onboard?
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Think I'll get myself on to a sim just in case. I fancy myself in the role of budding hero! I've only got 10 hours in my log book and am about to solo a C152 so suppose I shouldn't walk before I can crawl
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I flew a BA 777 simulator at Cranebank a few yrs ago, I did several approaches, I greased nearly all of them (probably luck) the instructor couldn't really believe it, I tried a landing at JFK (not sure which rwy etc) following the "running rabbits" in the curve and landed wonderfully well as well, I'd like to think that if I was on a plane to or from holiday and the pilots were incapacitated that I'd be able to land the plane, I'd certainly stick up my hand without hesitation, it's got to be better than a cabin full of people shrugging their shoulders with a quizzed look on their faces
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Some years ago, before I got my PPL, I had an hour in the 747-400 simulator at Cranebank. It was what convinced me to do the PPL.
We had a lengthy brief prior to going on board and firing the sim up. The Instructor then set me up on a 15 mile curved approach to one of the runways at JFK. He talked me through it but his hands remained clear of the controls at all times. His only proviso was that if it looked unsafe he would take control (it taking a considerable time to reboot the sim if I "crashed" it). Coming out of the curved approach onto the glideslope near the outer marker he asked me how it looked - I said "it looks about right". He said "looks good to me - go for it." Amazingly I greased it on and brought it to a full stop, much to the amazement of the instructor. We taxied the big beasty round straight into a rolling take-off, followed by circuits and bumps. The instructor did clean things up for me after each take-off, but then on downwind he talked me through the landing set up. Each time greased on, though the final landing to stop was a floater landing long but stopped well short of the end. The Instructor then did a 10 minute guided tour of the New York skyline at 500' - impressive, followed by a short-field landing. By the end of the hour I was a complete wet rag, dripping in sweat and the high level of concentration beginning to tell. In the debrief the instructor did ask me whether I had ever given thought to becoming a pilot - well the rest is history as they say.
In the real world with crew incapacitated I personally would rather have a PPL have a go at the landing than no one at all. I think it probably raises chances of survivability to about 50/50.
The real difficiency of the sim-experience is that the instructor sets things up for you - usually a take-off or landing. It might be an interesting scenario to take over a sim on auto-pilot in the cruise and try to bring it to land with instructions only.
We had a lengthy brief prior to going on board and firing the sim up. The Instructor then set me up on a 15 mile curved approach to one of the runways at JFK. He talked me through it but his hands remained clear of the controls at all times. His only proviso was that if it looked unsafe he would take control (it taking a considerable time to reboot the sim if I "crashed" it). Coming out of the curved approach onto the glideslope near the outer marker he asked me how it looked - I said "it looks about right". He said "looks good to me - go for it." Amazingly I greased it on and brought it to a full stop, much to the amazement of the instructor. We taxied the big beasty round straight into a rolling take-off, followed by circuits and bumps. The instructor did clean things up for me after each take-off, but then on downwind he talked me through the landing set up. Each time greased on, though the final landing to stop was a floater landing long but stopped well short of the end. The Instructor then did a 10 minute guided tour of the New York skyline at 500' - impressive, followed by a short-field landing. By the end of the hour I was a complete wet rag, dripping in sweat and the high level of concentration beginning to tell. In the debrief the instructor did ask me whether I had ever given thought to becoming a pilot - well the rest is history as they say.
In the real world with crew incapacitated I personally would rather have a PPL have a go at the landing than no one at all. I think it probably raises chances of survivability to about 50/50.
The real difficiency of the sim-experience is that the instructor sets things up for you - usually a take-off or landing. It might be an interesting scenario to take over a sim on auto-pilot in the cruise and try to bring it to land with instructions only.
I have convincingly crashed MS's version of the 737 many times. There again I've managed to land the Combat Flight sim Lanc OK. Must be a taildragger thing.. 
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I would qualify my "no" with something that will also explain it. I would say unless there was a very large, flat area (such as East Anglia!), and the pilot was a good student, there being only one chance, in communication with the outside world. An IR would help.
The reason I say this is that to land on a runway you must hit it in the first bit. This is a trick of firstly setting up a very stable approach, with precise speed / power / descent angle (hence the helpful IR, you do this for an easy ILS on any type). This is adjusted as required on the approach, and then ends with throttles closed and the nose raised slightly - usually about 2 degrees. This is not like a light aircraft!
If the speed is too high or the throttles closed too late then the aircraft will float. If the nose is pitched up too much the aircraft will float or even baloon. These cases will have the aircraft land very long. If the aircraft comes below glideslope it can be difficult to recover, especially with high engine wind-up times. If the speed is low impact is high, although that might not be a disaster.
Keeping the centreline is also very difficult, as the aircraft is not even as responsive as a C-172 (a lazy lump of an aircraft to handle if ever I flew one).
The reason I say this is that to land on a runway you must hit it in the first bit. This is a trick of firstly setting up a very stable approach, with precise speed / power / descent angle (hence the helpful IR, you do this for an easy ILS on any type). This is adjusted as required on the approach, and then ends with throttles closed and the nose raised slightly - usually about 2 degrees. This is not like a light aircraft!
If the speed is too high or the throttles closed too late then the aircraft will float. If the nose is pitched up too much the aircraft will float or even baloon. These cases will have the aircraft land very long. If the aircraft comes below glideslope it can be difficult to recover, especially with high engine wind-up times. If the speed is low impact is high, although that might not be a disaster.
Keeping the centreline is also very difficult, as the aircraft is not even as responsive as a C-172 (a lazy lump of an aircraft to handle if ever I flew one).
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Is there a pilot onboard ?
i have read the comments on this thread with great interest.
I too have a ppl with few hours compared to some, and flew the sim near Leeds and landed no problem from a straight in and ILS approaches. It is pretty obvious from the comments that many contributors are proffesional pilots and I do not envy you in any way as I am fully aware of the training you have gone through and can only take my hat off to you all.
Ladies and gentlemen,ponder this question.
Would any airport let you attempt to land a 70 odd ton potential fireball ?....
I too have a ppl with few hours compared to some, and flew the sim near Leeds and landed no problem from a straight in and ILS approaches. It is pretty obvious from the comments that many contributors are proffesional pilots and I do not envy you in any way as I am fully aware of the training you have gone through and can only take my hat off to you all.
Ladies and gentlemen,ponder this question.
Would any airport let you attempt to land a 70 odd ton potential fireball ?....
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Yes
Because it's better you tried to land at an airport rather than run out of fuel at altitude, alternatively they could always direct you over the water and shoot you down
Because it's better you tried to land at an airport rather than run out of fuel at altitude, alternatively they could always direct you over the water and shoot you down
Great thread, and great question Gontek, must remember to come back tomorrow when I'm at work to throw in my two pennies worth!
But as a taster, 2500 hrs fighter time got to have a go in the ETPS 1-11 as a precursor to tp training. Couldn't believe the effects of inertia. Now't happened. You get the roundout a bit early and your off to the races and off the side of the runway.
All these sim experiences are all well and good but, when there is real terra firma approaching and real Dunlops about to impact it is a very very different story to flying Mr Gate's imagination into the pixel-dense environment,
More tomorrow.
Tarnished
But as a taster, 2500 hrs fighter time got to have a go in the ETPS 1-11 as a precursor to tp training. Couldn't believe the effects of inertia. Now't happened. You get the roundout a bit early and your off to the races and off the side of the runway.
All these sim experiences are all well and good but, when there is real terra firma approaching and real Dunlops about to impact it is a very very different story to flying Mr Gate's imagination into the pixel-dense environment,
More tomorrow.
Tarnished
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Names and places changed to protect the guilty.
With around 100 hours on my PPL (with IMC) and a gliding silver C and - importantly some rotary wing time (where over-control kills you quickest) - I had the opportunity to sit right seat on an empty repositining flight in a bizjet in the Falcon 900/Gulfstream GV category. Just followed the flight director and took it down to 200' on the approach. Left seat said I had it set up nicely and could easily have landed it. Best fun you can have with your clothes on!
This a/c had a small fraction of the inertia of a 100 seat+ airliner, the flight plan was fully loaded into the fmc and I was not under any pressure, plus I had an instructor in the left seat doing all the work of configuring the a/c and talking to the ground.
My guess is that if everything was nicely set up and peace and calmness prevailed and the ppl had luck on his/her side and never deviated by more than a few feet from the ideal profile, then it might be a survivable touchdown - even if the roll-out killed all on board. How many of those factors are going to be in your favour when you have to step up to land a 737 with an incapacitated crew. You've already run out of luck before you sit down!
Interesting point about landing at the airfield. I wonder if you might be informed by ATC that the highest chance of survival would come from ditching just offshore - on the same principal that we are told that the safest thing to do following SEP engine failure at night is to head for the dark bits - your chance of survival virtually nil but at least you don't embarrass the CAA by killing people on the ground!
Good luck Aunty Mabel - but I hope you will understand I don't want anyone I know to be in the back when you get your shot at glory!
With around 100 hours on my PPL (with IMC) and a gliding silver C and - importantly some rotary wing time (where over-control kills you quickest) - I had the opportunity to sit right seat on an empty repositining flight in a bizjet in the Falcon 900/Gulfstream GV category. Just followed the flight director and took it down to 200' on the approach. Left seat said I had it set up nicely and could easily have landed it. Best fun you can have with your clothes on!
This a/c had a small fraction of the inertia of a 100 seat+ airliner, the flight plan was fully loaded into the fmc and I was not under any pressure, plus I had an instructor in the left seat doing all the work of configuring the a/c and talking to the ground.
My guess is that if everything was nicely set up and peace and calmness prevailed and the ppl had luck on his/her side and never deviated by more than a few feet from the ideal profile, then it might be a survivable touchdown - even if the roll-out killed all on board. How many of those factors are going to be in your favour when you have to step up to land a 737 with an incapacitated crew. You've already run out of luck before you sit down!
Interesting point about landing at the airfield. I wonder if you might be informed by ATC that the highest chance of survival would come from ditching just offshore - on the same principal that we are told that the safest thing to do following SEP engine failure at night is to head for the dark bits - your chance of survival virtually nil but at least you don't embarrass the CAA by killing people on the ground!
Good luck Aunty Mabel - but I hope you will understand I don't want anyone I know to be in the back when you get your shot at glory!
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Not only all the above,
But most are at least twice the speed well probably more close to three if not four times the speed of a light aircraft. If your only used to doing a 65kt approach in a C152 your going to feel very weird if you had to land a plane at 140-160 kts. It wouldnt be a "movie" ending thats for sure. lol
Sam
But most are at least twice the speed well probably more close to three if not four times the speed of a light aircraft. If your only used to doing a 65kt approach in a C152 your going to feel very weird if you had to land a plane at 140-160 kts. It wouldnt be a "movie" ending thats for sure. lol
Sam
