Beware of Unscrupulous US Visa Advice

[MLS-12D]

Frankly, I don't see the point in attempting to decipher silly American regulations and comply with their petty restrictions. It would be much easier for any UK pilot to simply do overseas training in friendly Australia, Canada or South Africa. The cost is approximately the same and the instruction is at least as good, perhaps even better.

I like visiting the USA, but unfortunately their paranoid right-wing government has effectively taken the country out of the flight training business. There are better options.

[englishal]

It would be much easier for any UK pilot to simply do overseas training in friendly Australia, Canada or South Africa

The problem is that none of these countries would recognise foreign ratings without jumping through hoops....probably a throwback from the old colonial days

Although I can't stand Bush (oh oh, now the CIA are probably onto me to bang me up in a jail somewhere without trial....or possibly even MI6 ), and it makes me cringe when I see him on TV talking about spreading democracy around the globe as it is his destiny from beyond the stars (or some other crap).....but one thing the Americans have got right is GA, and they are happy to recognise everyone elses ratings.....

[Keygrip]

OK, I'll play along - apart from the PPL, what other ratings does the FAA recognise on any other Country's licence?

What do you class as "hoops" - which I presume must be more than application forms days or weeks in advance, fingerprints, possible background check, attendance at the office with photo ID to get through the door?

[MLS-12D]

none of these countries would recognise foreign ratings without jumping through hoops

I cannot speak for South Africa, but I believe you are wrong about Australia, which issues a lifetime "special pilot license" on the basis of other ICAO countries' licenses and medicals. I got mine in 2002, on the back of my Canadian PPL. It is a paperwork validation, which can be done without making prior arrangements. The SPL doesn't allow flight training for extra ratings , but would be fine for those interested in time-building. Anyone wanting to earn a multi-rating or whatever can convert their foreign ICAO license to an Australian one without too much difficulty; see further Flight Crew Licensing Procedures Manual.

Apparently there is a minor hassle unique to UK pilots, but that is the fault of the CAA, not the CASA.

For obvious reasons, I am not personally familiar with the Canadian process of recognizing foreign qualifications (I think Gertrude the Wombat is), but to the best of my knowledge it is neither time-consuming nor arduous to obtain a "Foreign licence Validation Certificate" or a "Limited Term Private Pilot Licence"; see further here. While those documents have the disadvantage of being time-limited (unlike the FAA and CASA equivalents), that is of little or no consequence to someone who just wants to come here to build time or earn ratings on a one-off basis. And anyone who needs or wants a permanent Canadian license can obtain one quite easily: see CARs section 421.26(9).

The FAR §61.75 pilot certificate is a fine thing, and I am glad to possess one. But it is certainly not unique, and no reason for choosing to fly in the USA despite all of the restrictions.

MLS

P.S. to our American friends: my distaste for all of the restrictions imposed by the TSA et al. is not intended as a denigration of the friendly nature of most Americans or the quality of instruction available in the USA. I think that it is a shame that your flight schools are 'taking it in the neck' as a result of political expediency.

[chopperpilot47]

You need to read the TSA ruling to see where the visa comes into play. It is repeated in a number of places but taking just one bit:

"The flight training provider must keep a record of the following for 5 years for each foreign applicant:
The photograph of the candidate;
A copy of the approval sent by the TSA confirming the candidate's eligibility for flight training ( this is the final determination sent to the candidate and flight training provider via e-mail after the candidate has applied for flight training with the TSA, paid the $130 fee, and submitted fingerprints);
Candidate's full name, gender, and date of birth;
Candidate's ID number created by the TSA;
Copy of candidate's valid, unexpired passport and visa ;
Copy of all previous passports and visas held by the candidate and all the information necessary to obtain a passport and visa ;
Candidate's country of birth, current country or countries of citizenship and each previous country of citizenship, if any;
Candidate's requested dates, type, and location of training;
Candidate's current US pilot certificate and certificate number, if any;
Candidate's current address and phone number and each address for the previous 5 years;
Copy of receipt confirming that the $130 was paid;

Flight training is defined in the rule as "flight training for the issuance of a new certificate or rating or the addition of a certificate or rating in an aircraft weighing 12,500 pounds or less". It does not apply to flight reviews, proficiency checks, or other flight training not for the purpose of a new certificate or rating. Nobody yet knows if it applies to training endorsements such as complex, high performance, tailwheel etc because the TSA have not yet decided.

It seems to me that unless you have a visa you cannot commence flight training for a new certificate or rating because you could not complete the TSA requirements at the very least. I also think that if you arrived at a US airport and told them you were in the USA for flight training and did not have a visa you would be refused entry. I suppose the only way to find out for sure is to turn up and try it but my sincere advice is not to be the first one to try!

The requirements to demonstrate you have a visa are repeated a number of times in the TSA rule.

I don't know if this will satisfy everyone but as I said before you can't come to my school without obtaining a visa. All of my students with a visa had no trouble entering the US which is really what this is all about isn't it?

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[Keygrip]

I was talking to SEVIS (the visa people) today about something else - and mentioned that I'd seen information on an internet message board suggesting that the visa was no longer required due to the TSA rules overshadowing the process.

The SEVIS man said "I think that information needs to be taken out to the kerb, and left with all the other garbage"

[Sensible]

Seems to confirm my earlier post:

Here is the gospel according to St Ricardo (alias the boss of Naples Air Centre).

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showth...&threadid=65838

It remains 100% accurate so far as I am aware and it has remained for some time unchallenged which speaks volumes for the accuracy of the information.

The information is to be found as a "Sticky" at the top of the Private Pilots forum page.

So it's back to square 1 then!

[englishal]

OK, I'll play along - apart from the PPL, what other ratings does the FAA recognise on any other Country's licence?

Multi engine
Instrument (with IFP exam passed)
747 type rating
Whatever ICAO recognised rating you have

Hoops means that you cannot just get into an aircraft and fly. I remember reading in Flyer about flying in SA, and before you can solo you must pass the PPL flight test. If I go to SA to fly, I cannot fly IAW IFR, or even a ME aircraft......I would love to be able to fly as freely in SA as I can in the USA, its a beautiful place (worked there in 96 as well as Australia which is equally beautiful). I even had the pleasure of "co-piloting" a B1900 from Adelaide to Port Lincoln a few years ago. I was nothing to do with the flight crew, the aircraft we charted for work was single pilot, and when the pilot found out that I was a pilot he let me sit in the RHS for the trip, and talked me through everything which was cool.

Copy of candidate's valid, unexpired passport and visa ;

Doesn't say M1 though does it?

Look, I am not saying that I'm right, but to me an M1 seems overkill for additional ratings. You are not a student, you are not on a full time course, and therefore not entitled to an M1. You are doing a course of training which is covered by the B1 visa, which incidentally is multiple entry and normally valid for 10 years. Show me exactly where it says (officially) "AN M1 VISA IS REQUIRED TO ADD EXTRA RATINGS TO YOUR FAA LICENSE" and I'll shut up

I can accept that for a new "student pilot" an M1 is required. I think a lot of it is to do with the wording on the SEVIS application that the flight schools submit to the INS. If they word it that the applicant is a "student" then sure, an M1 visa will be the outcome. Now if they word it that the "candidate will be attending a training course" then the M1 is not applicable.

Sorry to harp on about this, I have a nature to question decision, and some people seem to just sit back and take stuff at face value...It doesn't particularly worry me as I have all the ratings I'm going to get for the time being, and with the wife being American I can get a green card if I want. I would just like to see 100% clarification.

[slim_slag]

What seems to matter is how the 'Law' is being interpreted by the Department of Homeland Security and the departments within it. For instance, it seems to me the recent security law that Congress rushed through in haste didn't work well in practice, and the money we pay to AOPA to represent us properly in Washington (ie payment of dollars to our politicians represents us better than voting for them) made the TSA re-intepret the law (after several attempts) in favour of US citizens.

Other laws, eg whether a non-resident alien needs an M1 visa to train for a PPL, are now being interpreted in that you do need one. I agree with englishal that you never used to need an M1, and nothing has changed in immmigration Law that now means you have to have an M1, so you shouldn't need an M1 now either.

So tell that to the immigration officer and expect to get put on the next plane back to the UK and banned from the US for five years.

englishal, don't bother with the green card unless you need to work in the US, you don't need the IRS hassle.

[chopperpilot47]

Isn't a B1 visa for business purposes? This is what the US Government website says:
Generally, a citizen of a foreign country who wishes to enter the United States must first obtain a visa, either a nonimmigrant visa for temporary stay, or an immigrant visa for permanent residence. The "visitor" visa is a nonimmigrant visa for persons desiring to enter the United States temporarily for business (B-1) or for pleasure or medical treatment (B-2). As examples, if the purpose for your planned travel is to consult with business associates, travel for a scientific, educational, professional or business convention, or conference on specific dates, settle an estate, or negotiate a contract, then you would apply for a visitors visa. As additional examples, if the purpose of your planned travel is recreational in nature, including tourism, amusement, visits with friends or relatives, rest, medical treatment, and activities of a fraternal, social, or service nature, then you would apply for a vistors visa. The visa allows a foreign citizen, to travel to the United States port-of entry and request permission of the U.S. immigration inspector to enter the U.S.

If someone had a private certificate and wanted a commercial licence or instrument rating would they not be described as a student for the course of study they are undertaking? I can't see them being described as a businessman.

I agree this is all academic. If you want to come to the USA for training you had better have an M1 visa or you won't get past the first desk.

Regards,

Chopperpilot 47

[englishal]

would they not be described as a student for the course of study they are undertaking

Maybe in the eyes of the flight school, which is probably where this mess originates from. Not in the eyes of the FAA....you are only a "student" when you hold a current "FAA student permit" which you don't once the PPL has been achieved.

B1 covers a number of activities, including business meetings, and educational *courses* rather than being a "student" - for example an IT course, where you know your onions, but you are attending a course to learn about a new piece of software. You could argue that as a recreational course GA flying would only require a B2, the same way as a new parachutest might.

The only difference between someone entering the USA on a pre issued B1/B2 visa and the visa waiver is that the B1/B2 is issued beforehand. A visa waiver applicant will still be stamped in B1 or B2 depending on the purpose of the visit. Now you could argue that you don't even need a visa to carry out flight training (other than the fact that the TSA require proof of it) but only the visa waiver.

It is all academic though, as pointed out you will probably need an M1. Dunno the point though, it certainly wont do anything to combat any terrorists, they will just go somewhere else to learn to fly.

[Flyin'Dutch']

For training towards a license or rating you DO need a VISA and TSA registration.

As so often when it comes to US regulations related to flying there are some people who interpret these regulations in a for them beneficial way.

It is however not whether you can convince yourself that you are compliant; but the US authorities.

[Frank Furillo]

It's very simple folks, if you don't get a visa you will be risking deportation and all the hassle that would cause jobs etc.....
I am going accross in March for my CPL etc and I will be getting a Visa, because for $130 and a day in London it's not worth pissing off the USA.
You cannot argue with a goverment you will always lose, they are bigger than us and we are in their country, painful as it may be we have to do what they say, if we want to be there.
I used to sell luxury cars for a living, (3 pointed star badge) when we used to do Cherished Transfers the rules seemed to change all the time, no point disagreeing as the staff at the wonderful DVLA and VRO's, they can do what they want, just do what they ask.
The same goes for the Americans and any other goverment, we are guests in their counry and if they want us to fart around getting visa's and fingerprints, well so be it. Thats the price you pay for training there.
FF

[englishal]

As so often when it comes to US regulations related to flying there are some people who interpret these regulations in a for them beneficial way.

I accept that the general consensus is that you need an M1, but I would still like to see it printed in black and white that the M1 is the only visa that will allow you to add further ratings to an already issued FAA certificate.....

TSA is a given nowadays, you must complete the process without a doubt...

[Keygrip]

the M1 is the only visa

englishal - not sure that soundbite is totally correct - I remember working (as production crew) on a post 9/11 seminar with FAA, FBI, INS, Customs, etc (in the days before TSA came along to screw things up).

They stressed that if anybody is in the USA on ANY visa (not the waiver) for ANY purpose - they could carry out flight training as a secondary event provided that their PRIMARY reason for attendance in the USA was supported by any make, model or colo(u)r of visa.

I'm not saying that this is, necessarily, still the case - but it used to be.

[englishal]

They stressed that if anybody is in the USA on ANY visa (not the waiver) for ANY purpose - they could carry out flight training as a secondary event

Exactly, which is why some people viewing this thread will probably think I've been harping on on some personal crusade

For the record, I've held a multi entry B1/B2 visa for almost 10 years, becasue I used to attend courses and training seminars in the States. I used to enter the states on this and the INS guys had no problem with me comming in "on a flying holiday" which it was.

The thing about the B1/B2 is that it is a muti entry visa valid for 10 years or so (if you are of good character ) so if this would suffice for flight training, then it makes our lives as pilots much much easier (one visit to the embassy, and the occasional TSA online clearance). When I got my visa, I didn't even have to go to the embassy, I filled out a form promising not to over throw the US government, sent them my passport and hey presto a nice US visa with a picture of me (looking younger and thinner I might add) on it.....


Cheers

Edit: I just found this on a US Government visa web site:

If you are going to the U.S. primarily for tourism, but want to take a short course of study of less than 18 hours per week, you may be able to do so on a visitor visa.

[Keygrip]

..............but you're not suggesting that they apply for any other than an M1/J1 primarily for flight training, are you?

That would be a different interpretation of what I said.

[AndyGB]

As someone who did spend £700 on a day trip to the Imigration office at Orlando airport in 2002 having been given duff advice, all I can add to this is get a visa, and don't try and waffle your way past the people on the desk.

(Thats not what I did by the way, I was open and honest and had emails from the school I was going to that said I didn't need a visa) which interested the immigration people a great deal. I think that is why although I was fingerprinted and photgraphed and escorted back to the returning flight I wasn't treated quite as harshly as some of the other people who were being processed at the same time as me.

Wen I went back later in the year (to AAA as it happens) I had the M1 visa and even then had a bit of a problem with immigration. Quite frankly I think that even with a visa you are still at the mercy of the guys on the desk and if they don't want to let you in they don't have to give you a reason.

[chrisbl]

I enquired of the Us embassy in London about the need for a visa. This is the complete text of their reply.

"If you are to receive flight training in the U.S. you will require an F-1, M-1 or J-1 visa. You should contact the flight school which will provide you with either an I-20F or M, or a DS-2019 which is required to apply for the visa.

If you have a private pilots license and you merely wish to build up flight hours, you will require a B-2 visa. While you may be eligible to travel visa free under the Visa Waiver Program, if otherwise qualified, since the introduction of the Applicability of Aviation and Transportation Security Act, we would recommend that you apply for a B-2 visa.
When applying for the B-2 visa and entry into the U.S. you will be required to furnish a letter from the flight school stating the type of aircraft you will be flying.

Detailed information on visa application procedures and advice on how to schedule an interview at the Embassy is available from our website at www.usembassy.org.uk

If your flight school cannot issue you with the appropriate form then we regret that you cannot apply for the necessary visa.

Thank you for your email correspondence.

Consular Information Unit
U.S. Embassy London
CONS/CIU/GMS"

That has been added to by the TSA rules but the fact is a visa is needed for any training that gives or adds to a licence or rating.

I did a night qualification and the time it took to get the visa was longer than the actual training involved.

Now you may think this is stupid but its their country and they can do what they like.

And if you want to know what the various visa types are then look here http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...v/nivindex.htm

but in short, F visas are for academic, M for vocational study and J visas are exchange.

You would be likely to apply for a F -1 when you are going to a university on a aviation course.

[englishal]

..............but you're not suggesting that they apply for any other than an M1/J1 primarily for flight training, are you?

No. Every time I have done any flight training it has been during a holiday. One year we went over for some hour building and fun flying, and becasue the weather was so crap ended up with an IR (at less than 18 hours training per week, I was allowed under the B2 to complete the course).

Anyway, if the flight school applies for an M1, then get it, as it will no doubt save a bunch of hassle....and I will leave it at that