Logging time 'on top'
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Logging time 'on top'
If you were flying on top of an inversion layer/cloud layer, with negligible ground contact, IFR, but your basic flying was with reference to the visual horizon not the AI, would you log that as instrument time? After all, it's not 'by sole reference to instruments', but an airline pilot friend of mine flying IFR in various weather conditions logs every flight as instrument time regardless of whether it's in VMC and I gather this is standard practice...
I ask because if I can log such flights I'm under-recording my instrument time - I would only log time actually in IMC or simulated IMC.
The ANO is not much help (just says you must record 'instrument flight' but the latter is not defined, that I could see).
Tim
I ask because if I can log such flights I'm under-recording my instrument time - I would only log time actually in IMC or simulated IMC.
The ANO is not much help (just says you must record 'instrument flight' but the latter is not defined, that I could see).
Tim
Genghis,
I think I get your drift, but I'd suggest that the key is VMC/IMC not VFR/IFR, in the circumstance that you infer.
I had a co pilot who was the Base Manager (and from the USA) who logged all flights on an IFR flight plan, as IFR, regardless that he was not on the controls most of the time
My interpretation has always been the caveat "sole reference to instruments", and if the horizon is fully visible and provides a visual reference, how can you claim IFR?
I think I get your drift, but I'd suggest that the key is VMC/IMC not VFR/IFR, in the circumstance that you infer.
I had a co pilot who was the Base Manager (and from the USA) who logged all flights on an IFR flight plan, as IFR, regardless that he was not on the controls most of the time
My interpretation has always been the caveat "sole reference to instruments", and if the horizon is fully visible and provides a visual reference, how can you claim IFR?
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You are not claiming "IFR time". You can be IFR on a brilliantly sunny day if you choose.
You are logging time spent in charge of the aircraft whilst flying solely by reference to instruments - "Instrument time". This implies that you were not on top of or between layers - rather, you were in the clag.
If you can still look out of the window and fly with any success, it isn't instrument time.
Instrument Time has no value in your logbook, other than that you need certain minimum amounts of it for certain licences under some regimes. It is therefore playing a role quantifying your genuine experience flying an aeroplane in soup.
If you bend the rules by claiming every IFR flight regardless of the inflight conditions, or by claiming flight in the clear, between layers, then the real loser is you.
2D
You are logging time spent in charge of the aircraft whilst flying solely by reference to instruments - "Instrument time". This implies that you were not on top of or between layers - rather, you were in the clag.
If you can still look out of the window and fly with any success, it isn't instrument time.
Instrument Time has no value in your logbook, other than that you need certain minimum amounts of it for certain licences under some regimes. It is therefore playing a role quantifying your genuine experience flying an aeroplane in soup.
If you bend the rules by claiming every IFR flight regardless of the inflight conditions, or by claiming flight in the clear, between layers, then the real loser is you.
2D
Well, you still have to pass whatever test you need those hours as a prerequisite for. If you are good enough to pass that test - well, you were presumably good enough !
G
G
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That's a totally different argument Genghis! 
I was attempting to play to the moral argument. If you want the legal argument, it is an offence to falsify a logbook entry, and that is what we are talking about here.
2D
I was attempting to play to the moral argument. If you want the legal argument, it is an offence to falsify a logbook entry, and that is what we are talking about here.
2D
It is of-course illegal to falsify a logbook entry (and, I'd argue, immoral also) - but first we need to establish what is legally allowed as hours in the IFR column? Until we know that, we don't know if it's either.
I confess that for anything except currency, I don't like minimum hours for anything - you're good enough or not. But that is a completely separate argument.
G
I confess that for anything except currency, I don't like minimum hours for anything - you're good enough or not. But that is a completely separate argument.
G
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I agree with 2Donkeys, This seems like a fairly clear case, with no room for argument: flying 'on top' in VMC is not the same as flying on instruments, and doesn't entitle the pilot to log instrument time. Whether one is on an IFR flight plan makes no difference whatsoever.
But that is just my opinion.
But that is just my opinion.
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As 2D's points out, and I'll re-iterate. Instrument time is time flying "with sole reference to instruments".
That means - head in the cockpit, on the clocks, not looking outside because you can't see outside. No different when you were training and had a hood or foggles on.
Logging time on top, in VMC, as instrument time is an illegal logbook entry, and depending on which nation's licence you're flying on can be a criminal offence.
That means - head in the cockpit, on the clocks, not looking outside because you can't see outside. No different when you were training and had a hood or foggles on.
Logging time on top, in VMC, as instrument time is an illegal logbook entry, and depending on which nation's licence you're flying on can be a criminal offence.
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You're Only Hurting Yourself
I suppose one could be successfully prosecuted, but really the chances of being charged are quite remote.
IMHO, the greater deterrent is the self-knowledge that this is an entry that is at best suspect (to be very charitable), and more likely fraudulent. As such, it debases or taints your entire logbook, which can no longer be considered an accurate record.
Just don't do it! When it comes to logging time, always err on the side of conservatism.
IMHO, the greater deterrent is the self-knowledge that this is an entry that is at best suspect (to be very charitable), and more likely fraudulent. As such, it debases or taints your entire logbook, which can no longer be considered an accurate record.
Just don't do it! When it comes to logging time, always err on the side of conservatism.
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The definition of 'instrument flight' is not a constant.
If one is under training for a PPL, the flight would typically be conducted under VFR, the instructor logging the hours as VFR, perhaps with a remark that the lesson was instrument flight. The student, however, logs the time as instrument flight and in the P.u/t column.
The logbook definition of instrument flight refers to the legal rules of flight, IFR or VFR.
I once filed an inflight IFR plan, and as soon as this was accepted called field in sight and was cleared a visual approach, managing to log 15 or 20 legal IFR minutes ; I was desperate to maintain my IFR time.
Point is, it was instrument flight conducted entirely without reference to the instruments!
If one is under training for a PPL, the flight would typically be conducted under VFR, the instructor logging the hours as VFR, perhaps with a remark that the lesson was instrument flight. The student, however, logs the time as instrument flight and in the P.u/t column.
The logbook definition of instrument flight refers to the legal rules of flight, IFR or VFR.
I once filed an inflight IFR plan, and as soon as this was accepted called field in sight and was cleared a visual approach, managing to log 15 or 20 legal IFR minutes ; I was desperate to maintain my IFR time.
Point is, it was instrument flight conducted entirely without reference to the instruments!
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Miserlou
What absolute rubbish! Read the previous posts.
I have never seen, on any form of licence or rating application, a column that says "IFR time". Nobody wants to know, nobody's interested
There often is a column, however, that says "Instrument time"
The two are totally different - or are you another 'logging miscreant'?
What absolute rubbish! Read the previous posts.
I have never seen, on any form of licence or rating application, a column that says "IFR time". Nobody wants to know, nobody's interested
There often is a column, however, that says "Instrument time"
The two are totally different - or are you another 'logging miscreant'?
Last edited by Chilli Monster; 6th Jan 2005 at 07:40.
Well, Chilli Monster, Miserlou is absolutely correct. Because unfortunately, JAA Eurocratic lunacy requires flights conducted under IFR rather than 'flown with sole reference to instruments' to be recorded:
"Details of all flights flown as a pilot shall be kept in a
reliable record in a logbook format acceptable to the
Authority (see IEM FCL 1.080/2.080).
Details of flights flown under JAR-OPS 1, may be
recorded in an acceptable computerised format
maintained by the operator. In this case an operator
shall make the records of all flights operated by the
pilot, including differences and familiarisation training,
available on request to the flight crew member
concerned.
Required information
The record shall contain the following information:
1. Personal details:
a. Name and address of the holder;
b. Particulars of each flight during which the
holder of the logbook acted as either a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for
the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under the Air Navigation
Order.
2. For each flight:
a. Name of Pilot-in-command.
b. Date (day, month, year) of flight.
c. Place and time of departure and arrival (times
(UTC) to be block time).
d. Type (aeroplane make, model and variant)
and registration of aeroplane.
e. SE, ME.
f. Total time of flight.
g. Accumulated total time of flight.
3. Operational conditions:
a. Night
b. IFR
4. Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
So, in theory, if you comply with Instrument Flight Rules when in VMC, then that time must be recorded, totally meaningless though it might be! The JAA doesn't seem to understand that flight under IFR outside RAS is perfectly legal in the UK!
"Details of all flights flown as a pilot shall be kept in a
reliable record in a logbook format acceptable to the
Authority (see IEM FCL 1.080/2.080).
Details of flights flown under JAR-OPS 1, may be
recorded in an acceptable computerised format
maintained by the operator. In this case an operator
shall make the records of all flights operated by the
pilot, including differences and familiarisation training,
available on request to the flight crew member
concerned.
Required information
The record shall contain the following information:
1. Personal details:
a. Name and address of the holder;
b. Particulars of each flight during which the
holder of the logbook acted as either a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for
the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under the Air Navigation
Order.
2. For each flight:
a. Name of Pilot-in-command.
b. Date (day, month, year) of flight.
c. Place and time of departure and arrival (times
(UTC) to be block time).
d. Type (aeroplane make, model and variant)
and registration of aeroplane.
e. SE, ME.
f. Total time of flight.
g. Accumulated total time of flight.
3. Operational conditions:
a. Night
b. IFR
4. Particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
So, in theory, if you comply with Instrument Flight Rules when in VMC, then that time must be recorded, totally meaningless though it might be! The JAA doesn't seem to understand that flight under IFR outside RAS is perfectly legal in the UK!
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Beagle.
The relevant part of your post is "Flights conducted under JAR-OPS 1"
The flights being discussed here are not Commercial flights under JAR-OPS 1 and that definition does not apply. For the definition of "instrument flight time" check the definitions section of JAR-FCL.
2D
The relevant part of your post is "Flights conducted under JAR-OPS 1"
The flights being discussed here are not Commercial flights under JAR-OPS 1 and that definition does not apply. For the definition of "instrument flight time" check the definitions section of JAR-FCL.
2D
2Donkeys, no it is purely the ambiguity of the wording that makes it seem so:
Details of flights flown under JAR-OPS 1, may be
recorded in an acceptable computerised format
maintained by the operator. In this case an operator
shall make the records of all flights operated by the
pilot, including differences and familiarisation training,
available on request to the flight crew member
concerned.
merely states that JAR-OPS 1 flights may be recorded in a compterised format. Whereas:
Particulars of each flight during which the
holder of the logbook acted as either a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for
the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under the Air Navigation
Order.
refers to all flights.
Details of flights flown under JAR-OPS 1, may be
recorded in an acceptable computerised format
maintained by the operator. In this case an operator
shall make the records of all flights operated by the
pilot, including differences and familiarisation training,
available on request to the flight crew member
concerned.
merely states that JAR-OPS 1 flights may be recorded in a compterised format. Whereas:
Particulars of each flight during which the
holder of the logbook acted as either a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for
the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under the Air Navigation
Order.
refers to all flights.
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I think we can safely say that the wording of the FCL quote is in error.
The two factors which we are asked to log, Night and "IFR", are listed as "Operational Conditions". This is just one of many such misuses of IFR (when refering to IMC) in JAR documentation.
2D
The two factors which we are asked to log, Night and "IFR", are listed as "Operational Conditions". This is just one of many such misuses of IFR (when refering to IMC) in JAR documentation.
2D
Well, the ANO states:
28 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and
every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which
the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of
an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the
log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable,
including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the
aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in
either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted,
including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
Whereas there are definitions in LASORS concerning 'instrument flight', there is nothing which defines 'instrument flying' in the ANO unless I've missed it. Mind you, I would certainly agree that 'actual' and 'simulated' IF (as used in the RAF) is the only IF time which is worth logging; time merely under IFR is meaningless!
Incidentally, Miserlou, there is NO NEED to file an airborne flight plan in the UK to fly under IFR outside RAS - the ANO spells that out quite clearly.
This whole thing is a typical CAA/JAA botch up where the wording is different and misleading between JAR-FCL and the ANO. Just one of many instances of such!
28 (1) Every member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom and
every person who engages in flying for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or
renewal of a licence under this Order shall keep a personal flying log book in which
the following particulars shall be recorded:
(a) the name and address of the holder of the log book;
(b) particulars of the holder’s licence (if any) to act as a member of the flight crew of
an aircraft; and
(c) the name and address of his employer (if any).
(2) Particulars of each flight during which the holder of the log book acted either as a
member of the flight crew of an aircraft or for the purpose of qualifying for the grant or renewal of a licence under this Order, as the case may be, shall be recorded in the
log book at the end of each flight or as soon thereafter as is reasonably practicable,
including:
(a) the date, the places at which the holder embarked on and disembarked from the
aircraft and the time spent during the course of a flight when he was acting in
either capacity;
(b) the type and registration marks of the aircraft;
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
(d) particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted,
including night flying and instrument flying; and
(e) particulars of any test or examination undertaken whilst in flight.
Whereas there are definitions in LASORS concerning 'instrument flight', there is nothing which defines 'instrument flying' in the ANO unless I've missed it. Mind you, I would certainly agree that 'actual' and 'simulated' IF (as used in the RAF) is the only IF time which is worth logging; time merely under IFR is meaningless!
Incidentally, Miserlou, there is NO NEED to file an airborne flight plan in the UK to fly under IFR outside RAS - the ANO spells that out quite clearly.
This whole thing is a typical CAA/JAA botch up where the wording is different and misleading between JAR-FCL and the ANO. Just one of many instances of such!