From Zero to Forty Five - my PPL Diary

[MichaelJP59]

Personally I was thinking of doing the whole CPL, ATPL route...

I was once thinking about that until I did some research and found out to my amazement that it would cost me about £50-60K to get qualified for a job that is relatively low-paid!

That wouldn't be so bad, but to really put the tin hat on it it turns out that there are thousands who have actually done this and can't even get even the low-paid flying jobs!

So I'm just doing it for fun. I hope at some point to be able to fly to some business meetings but I'm not kidding myself it will be any faster and certainly not any cheaper than using the car

- Michael

[c-bert]

My feelings exactly!

[ThePirateKing]

Mazzy,

SquawkIdent makes a good point. Unless you already hold a valid Flight Radio Telephony Operator's Licence, using your scanner is illegal. See the Ofcom website for more details:

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/codes_guidel...ofw156?a=87101

My interpretation of this is that ATC transmissions are not "general reception transmissions" (that is, they are not meant for the general public, but for specific parties), and therefore under section 5(1)(b) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949, only licenced operators are entitled to listen to the transmissions.

Under the "general reception" section, there is talk of "navigation transmissions". I believe this refers to GPS, TrafficMaster, etc. rather than ATC.

Of course, there is a big question over the likelihood of getting caught...

TPK

[mazzy1026]

SQUAWKIDENT

Thanks mate - where can I get one of these telescopic antenna's and how will I know it will fit?

PirateKing

Thanks for that info - I really wasnt aware of that! My question is, can I use the scanner (legally) once I have my PPL and the radio license that goes with it? I know you can get your radio license way ahead of passing your actual PPL so is this sufficient/correct license? Because when you are flying your not only listening in but also broadcasting?

With regards to the CPL/ATPL business - I know exactly what you mean. Before I started training I was so full of "Yeah I want ATPL and wanna fly for British Airways" in other words, I was a naieve wreck! Now I am totally happy whilst in training and totally enjoy flying every Sunday even though I am still learning. I can only imagine that once I get my license that it will become even better. I would settle for a nice aircraft share and regular fun flying

Thanks

Lee

[ThePirateKing]

Mazzy,

The FRTOL and the PPL are separate things, both issued by the CAA. You can get a PPL without getting an FRTOL - I know at least one person who is in the situation. This allows you to fly non-radio. (Legally, without even listening in... but hey!)

I am not aware of anybody having obtained an FRTOL without getting a PPL too, and I'm not even sure you can do so. The CAA may well only allow you to apply for an FRTOL if you have, or are simultaneously applying for, a PPL. Like I said - I don't really know.

As I said before, the chances of anyone catching you are pretty small. If you have a transceiver (i.e. the ability to transmit) be careful not to accidentally do so, because they WILL track you down, and you WILL be in trouble!

And if they do catch you listening in, and you point to your on-going PPL training, I would expect the worst outcome would be a slap on the wrist. But, then again, I'm not the CAA!

TPK

[c-bert]

Pirateking - Just had a look at LASORs and it says you only need a FRTOL to transmit - with the exception of pilots under training. I think anyone can listen in otherwise you would have hundreds of spotters being arrested all the time.

Equally you can listen in to police radio quite legally, it is acting on information recived that way that is illegal (as told to me by a policeman).

[SQUAWKIDENT]

Lee

Link here for telescopic replacement antenna for Maycom AR-108
(scroll down to the Maycom and select accessories)

http://www.airsupply.co.uk/acatalog/...RODUCTS_1.html

Bit pricey IMO but definitely improves reception for me here in London. Can now hear Heathrow ATC and most of the Swanwick ground controllers (and Volmet comes in nice and clear which is very useful before I set out to go flying..)

Cheers

Adam

[ThePirateKing]

c-bert,

I don't wish to start an argument, and maybe your information is better than mine, but if you check the link I gave earlier, you will find the legal situation as laid out by the actual regulator of all things (radio-)telegraphic and (radio-)telephonic.

It is quite clear that receiving, for example, police transmissions is illegal. The specific question regarding listening to police transmissions and not acting on them is covered in the FAQ at the bottom.

Of course, how an individual policeman acts in relation to the law is another question. One in London the other day told me outright that he had no idea how to enforce the new zebra crossings they have which don't have zig-zag lines approaching them. Police officers make mistakes. (Just ask the magistrate who threw out my speeding case! )

WRT an FRTOL, I think you'll find you are only allowed to exercise the priviledges of the licence is relation to the safe conduct of a flight. Ergo, using one to have a chin-wag with your mate in the air, for example, is not allowed.

Editted to add that LASORS, section B1.1 states "the FRTOL does not entitle the holder to operate a radio station which is installed anywhere other than in an aircraft". Therefore, it specifically does not entitle the holder to use a handheld radio (except, perhaps, inside an airplane in event of a failure of a fixed radio installation).

Rgds,

TPK

[c-bert]

PirateKing - no arguement (hopefully). I stand corrected on the police thing. As I said it was word of mouth only.

Have just read the link you provided. Seems I am completely in the wrong! . My unreserved appologies.

Having said that, I wonder how many people who own a scanner have a licence to operate one....?

[mazzy1026]

So why is it that all the spotters who stand at Manchester viewing point (or any airfield for that matter) aren't arrested? Even when I go flying I see loads of them at Liverpool - is it one of them laws that only exist as an item on paper and that nobody really is out to catch? I can understand if you are transmitting - which would be stupid and perhaps dangerous, wouldnt even go there!!

Cheers

Lee

[ThePirateKing]

Mazzy,

Same reason not all speeders are arrested. And not all shopkeepers/pubs that sell cigarettes/alcolhol to minors. And not all PPLs who accidentally stray into a bif of fluff at 2500ft. And not all white van men who block yellow box junctions. And not all cyclists who think traffic lights don't apply to them. (etc, etc, ad nauseum).

Enforcement is tricky. Although a gathering of "users" at, say, the local airport would be quite obvious, I suspect that nobody is really that interested. It's pretty harmless.

I simply wanted to make sure you were aware of the law. I use my scanner quite regularly to listen to traffic at Blackbushe. (And even to listen for friends coming to pick me up - I can be a Blackbushe before they land if I leave home when I hear their first radio call! )

Cheers!

TPK

[mazzy1026]

No problem Pirate - I agree with what you say and will certainly take on board your advice.

Cheers

Lee

[Obs cop]

I think that with regards to scanners, a bit of common sense is normally applied.

The cost for the enforcement agencies, to prosecute even the minor offenders is beyond proportion inrelation to the severity of the offence, because in order to gather evidence of a person "listening" to a frequency you would need to do covert surveillance requiring an authority in line with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act.

The whole thing moves up a notch when either an unauthorised person acts on that information or actually transmits on that channel. This is quite a severe offence and is usually one which is frequently targetted by the various agencies.

Thepirateking hit the nail on the head. My analogy is that the vast majority of drivers speed, but not all speeders are dangerous drivers. The limited resources available to enforcement agencies mean that whilst there are a lot of offenders, it makes more sense to target those who speed dangerously or in dangerous locations.

Mazzy, BTW great thread and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting your first solo.

Regards

Obs cop

[BRL]

A search revealed the 'Listening to RT' thread which I have revived considering the questions on this thread at the mo'.

[g0kmt]

You can get a telescopic antenna for your scanner from Maplins. Connectors on scanners tend to be BNC, although a few newer radios use SMA.

BNC connectors on a radio are cylindrical with two diametrically opposed pegs stuck out about 1mm from the top.

SMA connectors are threaded and about 5mm in diameter.

The manual will tell you which your scanner accepts.

Good luck with the flying, I wish I could get down to a weight where I wouldnt move the CofG outside limits hehehe then I would give it a go.

Cheers n beers
Ian

[mazzy1026]

ObsCop - thank you sir, I agree with whats been said, and that anaolgy is pretty spot on. The thing is, today I am taking my girlfriend to the flying school - she is gonna sit by the apron on the picnic tables whilst I do circuits. She has never been in that environment before and she is looking forward to it. I was gonna give her my little scanner, just so she could listen in to me in the circuit - but now I am 50/50. If I were to do it then, perhaps I would give her earphones, as to not make it too obvious. I cant see the harm personally, as there is one in the lounge anyway that everyone can hear (she wont even know what the hell it all means nayway! (sorry luv))

Ian
How heavy are you mate? If you are too heavy for the PA38 Tomahawk, then why not try the PA28 Warrior or similar? It's a 4 seater which in guessing you are not as heavy as 3 average people put together

Solo is creeping up on me now, I am just waiting for the words "ok your turn" as he crawls out the door. Honestly, I cant wait now, my heart will be pounding, and looking back at the start of my thread, I never thought I could get this far!

BRL: I'll check that one out mate, thanks

Regards all

Lee

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect, the Office of Communications is "interpreting" the Act, they are not the final arbiter, the courts are.

Go ahead and give your girlfriend your scanner or transciever to listen in on. There should be no problem. You make "broadcast" calls don't you? By definition they may be listened to by people "intended" to receive them. I would have thought that included your girlfriend, volunteer marshalls at a fly in, skydivers and all sorts of people.

The real test is intent to use the information for an unlawful purpose.

Telling your girlfriend to remove bra and knickers over the radio is not a hanging offence, unless she is under eighteen or whatever.

[Obs cop]

mazzy,

The common sense solution may well be just to ask ATC if they mind your girlfriend listening in whilst you are flying.

Most general aviation and some airport facilities don't mind, but if you have their permission, you are perfectly legal if you listen in.

Avoids all of this can I, can't I stuff and puts your mind at rest.

Just a thought,

Obs cop

[magpienja]

I would ask cath or malcom in the office they will know for sure, if you were to go into the terminal over by were the windows that look out on the apron, every spotter there will have one going full plelt with lots of they boys in blue about all the time.

Nick.

[mazzy1026]

Hour 16

I have bee really unlucky with the weather ever since starting my circuit training. Every single session that I have done, it has been bloody windy, close or past aircraft limits. My instructor told me I would have already gone solo had it not been for this fact, so I get a little cheesed off when I wake up for the lesson and its howling outside. Anyway, that’s UK aviation for you so I either get used to it or stress myself out!

On rw 09 today we had a 20kt headwind throughout most of the session. Takeoff was interesting as we got airspeed for free and we climbed higher, quicker so we had to crab quite a bit to get a decent crosswind distance, so that we were not too close to the runway on downwind. The flying was going well, and on the second circuit we performed 2 orbits to give spacing to one of the easyjets (the sky in Liverpool especially on a weekend is dotted with orange!) So there we are jollying away, knowing that if the weather was good I may have had the opportunity to go solo, but still, was loving every minute.

Then, we thought we could do a couple of gliding descents to land. As we turned to final, instructor said to me:

“Tell me when you think we could cut the engine and successfully make the runway”.

Bearing in mind the wind was bloody strong, I was guessing at pretty much over the extended threshold – the metal structures that hold the approach lights (anyone know the technical word I am looking for?). So at 1000 feet, we cut the engine, carb heat on and kept the nose up for 70kt. Then commenced the glide. As we got further along, I was thinking, “We aint gonna make this”. All of a sudden…..WALLOP! We were dropping like a whore’s knickers (sorry) – loads of power back on to keep us from dying and ensure that we make the runway – very very interesting indeed.

On the next base:

Instructor: “Wanna do another one?”
Me: “Too right”.

This time, it was quite scary. We were practically over the numbers when we cut the engine at 1000ft. the runway looked TINY! Miles away! I was expecting a very exciting landing as we were SO high, never seen the runway from this perspective before (listen to me like a kid with a new toy). So again, trim for 70kts and set the glide up. This time, we were making it no problem and had plenty of runway to play with – landed fine. I had concerns with what I had learned: What would it be like if you REALLY had lost your engine and you had no runway to play with, or for that matter, no runway at all! Getting the glide angle spot on and picking the best landing point (a nice field) would be essential, and I can imagine pretty scary.

Lots learned today, and still awaiting my solo which I am really looking forward to. I gave my airband scanner to my dad who was back at the house, more than 15 miles away, he could hear me clearly in the circuit which was great.

Safe flying,

Lee