Dumping Height: Why not stall?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: London
Dumping Height: Why not stall?
Now, I thorougly expect this to kick off, so first a caveat: This isn't meant as a suggestion, instead a debating point...
In some types, the stall is benign. I mean really benign. You can float away all you like, and even someone who has never even flown an aircraft before will not get themselves in trouble as long as they keep pulling, keep balancing and have some rough kind of faith.
So, now lets take someone who is actually experienced on type. Forced landing. Too high. S-Turns are fine, sideslipping is fine, but... (and I know I'm going out on a limb here)... one could give it some serious back pull and pile off the altitude whilst retaining an "on-track" view to the target.
I think I'll now duck as I expect missiles are incoming.
In some types, the stall is benign. I mean really benign. You can float away all you like, and even someone who has never even flown an aircraft before will not get themselves in trouble as long as they keep pulling, keep balancing and have some rough kind of faith.
So, now lets take someone who is actually experienced on type. Forced landing. Too high. S-Turns are fine, sideslipping is fine, but... (and I know I'm going out on a limb here)... one could give it some serious back pull and pile off the altitude whilst retaining an "on-track" view to the target.
I think I'll now duck as I expect missiles are incoming.
Couldonlyaffordafiver
Joined: Dec 2000
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From: The Twilight Zone near 30W
Good thought. However, the rate of descent in a stall is quite considerable plus the amount of height lost during recovery. I guess it depends how close to the ground you are and the controllability of your aeroplane. Although, you're only likely to find yourself in this situation close to the ground. Best avoided I think. I have heard tales of people stalling into trees when there's been no alternative! 
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Australia
If you've got the height for a stall and recovery then I reckon you've got the height for some shallow turns into the same field and i'd rather do that and spend the extra time preparing pax or trying to inject some life into the fan up front.
But they did it in that movie with the old codgers in the space shuttle
But they did it in that movie with the old codgers in the space shuttle
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From: EuroGA.org
paulo
Do you mean dumping height in an emergency, or dumping height to achieve a very steep descent?
In the latter case, I would say that if there is enough height to stall etc safely then one can do a descending orbit. I once came over some 6000ft hills to land an a field at sea level, about 3nm along. I don't know how many orbits I had to do to lose the 5000ft
Do you mean dumping height in an emergency, or dumping height to achieve a very steep descent?
In the latter case, I would say that if there is enough height to stall etc safely then one can do a descending orbit. I once came over some 6000ft hills to land an a field at sea level, about 3nm along. I don't know how many orbits I had to do to lose the 5000ft
Joined: Dec 1999
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From: Oop North, UK
I would think the main problem here is judging when to recover, if you hold it in until you have the right picture and then recover you could find the recovery has taken you to low which would be VERY embarassing. The advantage with the other methods of losing height (Orbits, "S" turns, sideslipping, fishtailing) is that it is much easier to judge the right point to recover to a normal glide.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Midlands
The biggest problem I can see with a deliberate stall in a PFL situation relates to flying the picture.
I have always been taught to fly pfls with an aiming point remaining fixed in the windscreen. Ie. moving down is an overshoot and moving up an undershoot. Keep it in the same spot and thats where you are going.
In a stall you have a completely different desent profile from that of a normal approach and thus the picture will look radically different. IMHO this would make deciding the point to recover from a stall very difficult and particularly dangerous. Further to this, aircraft that are benign in the stall, tend to sit and wallow at a very high nose up attitude, removing virtually all forward view, making the recovery decision even harder and committing the ultimate sin of not keeping sight of your target field.
Just my thoughts,
Obs cop
I have always been taught to fly pfls with an aiming point remaining fixed in the windscreen. Ie. moving down is an overshoot and moving up an undershoot. Keep it in the same spot and thats where you are going.
In a stall you have a completely different desent profile from that of a normal approach and thus the picture will look radically different. IMHO this would make deciding the point to recover from a stall very difficult and particularly dangerous. Further to this, aircraft that are benign in the stall, tend to sit and wallow at a very high nose up attitude, removing virtually all forward view, making the recovery decision even harder and committing the ultimate sin of not keeping sight of your target field.
Just my thoughts,
Obs cop
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Europe
p,
All the other methods to loose height are very controllable in direction, ROD, entry and exit height, speed etc.
The stall is none of the above and there is always the risk of a spin if you got an upset due to turbulence, which is more likely to increase in the approach to land.
FD
All the other methods to loose height are very controllable in direction, ROD, entry and exit height, speed etc.
The stall is none of the above and there is always the risk of a spin if you got an upset due to turbulence, which is more likely to increase in the approach to land.
FD
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
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From: London, UK
I seem to recall reading somewhere that Lettice Curtis, or one of the other ATA pilots, deliberately stalled to landing after an engine failure in order to avoid crashing into a hangar or ammo dump.
PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Everywhere in the UK, but not home!
In those aircraft that it's safe to do it, a side slip will give you similar ROD to that of a stall, and under much more control! Never stall close to the gound, stall spinning is a huge risk, and deadly!
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
snigs at least you sound like an instructor.
first problem negligence and liabillity.seen the adverts on tv. had an accident not your fault. read into it, had an accident, probably was my fault but lets try and get some money.
your honour, it was openly known the instructor xyz departed from the syllabus and taught people to actuall stall the aircarft at low level to rectify height and adjust descent while practicing pfls.
its fairly obvious then that this stall accident was caused by the negligence of his instructor.
can you tell me instructor xyz is it considered good avaition practice to purposely stall a/c at low level.
would you agree then that it is in fact extremely dangerous to stall an a/c at low level (you may not but there will be plenty of experts present who will)
after you have read this check out whether you are covered for negligence with your school policy or personal policy, if not put your house in your wifes name!
what you are trying to achieve is reduce ground speed while descending. there are many other ways of doing this which are far safer, such as side slipping or turning.
you also may consider that the human body can take much more forward impact that it can upward impact.
when you teach stalling as an exercise, a lot of you are actually teaching stalling on that particulay a/c in that particular configuration at that particular c of g.
have you ever stopped to think you are actually teaching your student stalling on every particular a.c he/ she will fly on from a cessna to a 747.
you may be teaching a slow entry at 1 kt per sec but if your student ever stalls for real will it be a slow entry similar to the one being taught, will he just sit there and say, oh look we are stalling.
remember the trident accident at staines.
the enquiry said;
if after x secs after take off the crew had been asked(and there were 4 on the flight deck!) why dont you recover, they would have replied recover from what?
this is a sentence all instructors should remember when teaching stalling; RECOVER FROM WHAT?
the crew did not understand that the a/c was stalling and seconds later they and all their passengers were dead.
these were 4 proffesional pilots two of whom had been through hamble.
my point is that actually stalling and teaching stalling can be two very different matters. therefore encouraging anyone to stall intentionly at low level would be total madness and totally iresponsible.
when you teach stalling you should teach and drive home the point;
to day we are stalling the a/c correctly loaded and balanced, on this particualr a/c on this particular day and with this particular entry and speed this is what happened. on another day or on another a/c the results may be entirely different.
we have been on stalling here before and discussed always applying full power to recover, so let me run this one by you.
many years ago i was doing a stalling exercise with a student and i asked him to enter a stall with power on and full up elevator. this he dutifully did, when he went to recover the control column would not budge, it was locked in the full aft position. full power wasnt much good to us in fact i had to stop him from continually trying to apply full power.
how would your student fare on a forced landing with full up elevator locked on, not very well i would think so perhaps best not to go there i think!
first problem negligence and liabillity.seen the adverts on tv. had an accident not your fault. read into it, had an accident, probably was my fault but lets try and get some money.
your honour, it was openly known the instructor xyz departed from the syllabus and taught people to actuall stall the aircarft at low level to rectify height and adjust descent while practicing pfls.
its fairly obvious then that this stall accident was caused by the negligence of his instructor.
can you tell me instructor xyz is it considered good avaition practice to purposely stall a/c at low level.
would you agree then that it is in fact extremely dangerous to stall an a/c at low level (you may not but there will be plenty of experts present who will)
after you have read this check out whether you are covered for negligence with your school policy or personal policy, if not put your house in your wifes name!
what you are trying to achieve is reduce ground speed while descending. there are many other ways of doing this which are far safer, such as side slipping or turning.
you also may consider that the human body can take much more forward impact that it can upward impact.
when you teach stalling as an exercise, a lot of you are actually teaching stalling on that particulay a/c in that particular configuration at that particular c of g.
have you ever stopped to think you are actually teaching your student stalling on every particular a.c he/ she will fly on from a cessna to a 747.
you may be teaching a slow entry at 1 kt per sec but if your student ever stalls for real will it be a slow entry similar to the one being taught, will he just sit there and say, oh look we are stalling.
remember the trident accident at staines.
the enquiry said;
if after x secs after take off the crew had been asked(and there were 4 on the flight deck!) why dont you recover, they would have replied recover from what?
this is a sentence all instructors should remember when teaching stalling; RECOVER FROM WHAT?
the crew did not understand that the a/c was stalling and seconds later they and all their passengers were dead.
these were 4 proffesional pilots two of whom had been through hamble.
my point is that actually stalling and teaching stalling can be two very different matters. therefore encouraging anyone to stall intentionly at low level would be total madness and totally iresponsible.
when you teach stalling you should teach and drive home the point;
to day we are stalling the a/c correctly loaded and balanced, on this particualr a/c on this particular day and with this particular entry and speed this is what happened. on another day or on another a/c the results may be entirely different.
we have been on stalling here before and discussed always applying full power to recover, so let me run this one by you.
many years ago i was doing a stalling exercise with a student and i asked him to enter a stall with power on and full up elevator. this he dutifully did, when he went to recover the control column would not budge, it was locked in the full aft position. full power wasnt much good to us in fact i had to stop him from continually trying to apply full power.
how would your student fare on a forced landing with full up elevator locked on, not very well i would think so perhaps best not to go there i think!
Last edited by whatunion; 14th June 2004 at 13:44.
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,414
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From: Europe
w,
Not sure what rattled your cage but I think you are being unfair on sniggs.
Not sure why you pick on him/her, I had actually posted the same and now feel left out!
Whilst it is perfectly safe to stall most aircraft during the landing phase to flare it on at minimum speed at grass top height, the suggestion to do so during the approach to achieve a high ROD is unsafe.
I don't understand what the Staines Trident accident illustrates with regards to stalling during the landing phase.
I will don my flak jacket, as I no doubt will be flamed for having the audacity to query your eloquent post. And whilst I am at it, can I ask you to use capitals there were required. Makes you look so much more mature.
FD
PS Scary to realise that someone who can go off at the deep end like that is actually instructing
Not sure what rattled your cage but I think you are being unfair on sniggs.
Not sure why you pick on him/her, I had actually posted the same and now feel left out!
Whilst it is perfectly safe to stall most aircraft during the landing phase to flare it on at minimum speed at grass top height, the suggestion to do so during the approach to achieve a high ROD is unsafe.
I don't understand what the Staines Trident accident illustrates with regards to stalling during the landing phase.
I will don my flak jacket, as I no doubt will be flamed for having the audacity to query your eloquent post. And whilst I am at it, can I ask you to use capitals there were required. Makes you look so much more mature.
FD
PS Scary to realise that someone who can go off at the deep end like that is actually instructing
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 479
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From: Enniskillen
At the risk of being totally lambasted for this, I used to find that if I want to get "more sink" without side slpping in the old PA27 Aztec, I slow down, (a lot).
I don't do it very close to the ground, but say from 2000 ft to 700 ft agl, it is an effective way to loose height without too much distance covered, and with a bit of height remaining I could get back to blue line speed quickly if one donk failed.
I have flown the aztec into some very difficult places and sometimes you need every trick in the book to get there.
YOU MUST KNOW YOUR AIRCRAFT VERY WELL BEFORE TRYING THIS. ( I do know the Aztec very well)
I was never comfortable side slipping in a twin.
The Rallye can be held in a full stall giving about 1000 fpm ROD showing nothing on the ASI, but again I would not do this on final approach. (it will turn its self into wind).
Tony
I don't do it very close to the ground, but say from 2000 ft to 700 ft agl, it is an effective way to loose height without too much distance covered, and with a bit of height remaining I could get back to blue line speed quickly if one donk failed.
I have flown the aztec into some very difficult places and sometimes you need every trick in the book to get there.
YOU MUST KNOW YOUR AIRCRAFT VERY WELL BEFORE TRYING THIS. ( I do know the Aztec very well)
I was never comfortable side slipping in a twin.
The Rallye can be held in a full stall giving about 1000 fpm ROD showing nothing on the ASI, but again I would not do this on final approach. (it will turn its self into wind).
Tony
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,417
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From: London, UK
FD, whatunion appears to be a troll: have a look at the instructors' forum, where he has had BEagle chewing the furniture.
Edit: to be fair, maybe not a full-on troll of the fol-de-rol variety, but capable of exhibiting troll-like characteristics.
Edit: to be fair, maybe not a full-on troll of the fol-de-rol variety, but capable of exhibiting troll-like characteristics.
Last edited by FNG; 14th June 2004 at 17:19.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 177
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From: london
sorry fd but your comments
The stall is none of the above and there is always the risk of a spin if you got an upset due to turbulence, or
Whilst it is perfectly safe to stall most aircraft during the landing phase
dosnt really sound like instructor speak to me.
perhaps as an instructor you are versed in the difference between people and can understand i post without capital letters as i understand you post with them. the understanding of people does however come with maturity, so hang on in there!
i appreciate some of the others need to highlight my inadequacies and i welcome it because it underlines what sort of instructors you are but as i have said before i am happy with my inadequacies, what excuses can you give for being perfect..
if you get a collection of people who all agree with each other
you dont get any debate, if you do not get any debate you do not get any progress.
you do not understand what the staines accident has to do with stalling on the approach but i do, what does that tell you about both of us and you dont need to put a flak jacket on?
some of you may be very impressed from what you have heard on here from some of the old hands, i cant say i have. my next door neighbour has been driving for years and i have the marks on the gatepost to prove it.
a lot has changed since the birch and bramson era, but generally very little has been changed by those of that era.
have a nice evening with your bird!
The stall is none of the above and there is always the risk of a spin if you got an upset due to turbulence, or
Whilst it is perfectly safe to stall most aircraft during the landing phase
dosnt really sound like instructor speak to me.
perhaps as an instructor you are versed in the difference between people and can understand i post without capital letters as i understand you post with them. the understanding of people does however come with maturity, so hang on in there!
i appreciate some of the others need to highlight my inadequacies and i welcome it because it underlines what sort of instructors you are but as i have said before i am happy with my inadequacies, what excuses can you give for being perfect..
if you get a collection of people who all agree with each other
you dont get any debate, if you do not get any debate you do not get any progress.
you do not understand what the staines accident has to do with stalling on the approach but i do, what does that tell you about both of us and you dont need to put a flak jacket on?
some of you may be very impressed from what you have heard on here from some of the old hands, i cant say i have. my next door neighbour has been driving for years and i have the marks on the gatepost to prove it.
a lot has changed since the birch and bramson era, but generally very little has been changed by those of that era.
have a nice evening with your bird!
Last edited by whatunion; 14th June 2004 at 18:24.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 716
Likes: 7
From: London
Hmmm. Some good things I'd not thought about - the picture scenario, and the windshear type stuff nearer the ground.
I'm not sure what fps is doing this vs. s turns etc. Unless there's a big difference, maybe there'd be no benefit even in a desperation scenario (e.g. you absolutely have to be in that field in front of you, not the next one/housing estate/school field full of kids/whatever)
I'm not sure what fps is doing this vs. s turns etc. Unless there's a big difference, maybe there'd be no benefit even in a desperation scenario (e.g. you absolutely have to be in that field in front of you, not the next one/housing estate/school field full of kids/whatever)
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Whatunion.
Your lack of proper punctuation makes your argument very difficult to understand. From here on in. I shall ignore your posts.
Many people.
Loose = sloppy, not tight.
Lose = to become uncertain of the location of something.
Please get it right, it puts my teeth on edge.
Mike W
Your lack of proper punctuation makes your argument very difficult to understand. From here on in. I shall ignore your posts.
Many people.
Loose = sloppy, not tight.
Lose = to become uncertain of the location of something.
Please get it right, it puts my teeth on edge.
Mike W