What is it about landing on grass?
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
Tony R, have you noticed that most a/c these days are not tailwheels. What would you do with a rapidly approaching ditch at the end of the field you have just landed in, remember your foolish instructors advice or take the common sense precaution of respectfully using the brakes.
Probably forgotten by most of you is that many scheduled airline services started off grass runways, Burnaston, Sywell, Jersey.
At Burnaston one day a DC3 landed long on wet grass and went straight across the A38, stopping in the transport cafe car park!
Three problems here 1. wet grass 2. landing deep 3. Rutting, something not mentioned here but a major consideration on grass. At burnaston serious rutting had been caused by the Canadair argonauts landing on the grass while training and positioning.
Probably forgotten by most of you is that many scheduled airline services started off grass runways, Burnaston, Sywell, Jersey.
At Burnaston one day a DC3 landed long on wet grass and went straight across the A38, stopping in the transport cafe car park!
Three problems here 1. wet grass 2. landing deep 3. Rutting, something not mentioned here but a major consideration on grass. At burnaston serious rutting had been caused by the Canadair argonauts landing on the grass while training and positioning.
Last edited by whatunion; 12th June 2004 at 10:14.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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From: Chichester West Sussex UK
One point I don’t think has been mentioned to date is that pilots who have ONLY landed on hard runways do need to think about the lack of runway perspective cues (width versus length) they will be faced with when landing on a grass field.
In the absence of VASIs this can lead to a bit more care being needed to stabilise the glide path angle within normal limits.
It is no big deal, but anybody who normally feels that glide path assessment is not their strong point should bear it in mind.
The secret of substituting for the lack of runway perspective stuff is to expand your scan a bit more both sides of the touchdown centreline and so try and visualise the perspective of the aerodrome as a whole. Again practice makes perfect.
One way to back up your visual assessment of how things are going on finals is to find an ‘inner marker’ type of ground feature known to be one or two miles out from touchdown and work out how high you should be when you cross it on the basis of 300 to 350 feet per mile from touchdown.
In the absence of VASIs this can lead to a bit more care being needed to stabilise the glide path angle within normal limits.
It is no big deal, but anybody who normally feels that glide path assessment is not their strong point should bear it in mind.
The secret of substituting for the lack of runway perspective stuff is to expand your scan a bit more both sides of the touchdown centreline and so try and visualise the perspective of the aerodrome as a whole. Again practice makes perfect.
One way to back up your visual assessment of how things are going on finals is to find an ‘inner marker’ type of ground feature known to be one or two miles out from touchdown and work out how high you should be when you cross it on the basis of 300 to 350 feet per mile from touchdown.
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
TonyR
I echo that entirely.
Brakes are for stopping at the right point on the fuel pump hard standing and at the parking lot.
If they are needed on the runway then it was a runway that was too short or the wrong direction was chosen.
I echo that entirely.
Brakes are for stopping at the right point on the fuel pump hard standing and at the parking lot.
If they are needed on the runway then it was a runway that was too short or the wrong direction was chosen.
Joined: Oct 2003
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From: UK
I learnt on grass and found it quite difficult to land gently on a hard runway because the perspective felt wrong!
I start the flare when I can see 'blades of grass' instead of just 'green grass' . There wasn't anything similar on hard runways.
I start the flare when I can see 'blades of grass' instead of just 'green grass' . There wasn't anything similar on hard runways.
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
polly try landing on disused runways with grass growing through the tarmac. otherwise find out who the most nervous instructor is at the airfield. go up with him and when he shouts jesus christ pull back and close the throttle.
monocock if you think brakes are just for stopping at the pumps i would love to take you into guernsey with a 35 knot crosswind and a threshold speed of 130 knots and no thrust reversers.
tony, dont be sorry you fly a rallye club be grateful, i would love to fly one again!
monocock if you think brakes are just for stopping at the pumps i would love to take you into guernsey with a 35 knot crosswind and a threshold speed of 130 knots and no thrust reversers.
tony, dont be sorry you fly a rallye club be grateful, i would love to fly one again!
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Enniskillen
Whatunion,
The thread was mostly about "light aircraft" I also fly a TB20 for touring and a Cessna 340 for a private company, but I still rarely use brakes on the runway (usually only when I've messed up)
But I've come to the conclusion that many pilots just want to fly from "big" airports and have no desire to mix with us "farmer" types who enjoy the freedom of the countryside airstrips.
I landed the Rallye in a big field a couple of weeks ago just for a chat with a friend who was grass cutting. This fella came running accross the field to inform me that he had called 999 when he saw me "crash", he was a pilot. I told him that he'd better wait at the gate to inform the services that no one was hurt & I just took off and went home. He then told my friend (also a pilot) that I should have had the aircraft checked by an engineer before take off after landing in such a place.
It is such a rare thing now to to see people land "off airport". it used to be grate fun during the haymaking season being able to just "drop in" and visit friends.
Tony
The thread was mostly about "light aircraft" I also fly a TB20 for touring and a Cessna 340 for a private company, but I still rarely use brakes on the runway (usually only when I've messed up)
But I've come to the conclusion that many pilots just want to fly from "big" airports and have no desire to mix with us "farmer" types who enjoy the freedom of the countryside airstrips.
I landed the Rallye in a big field a couple of weeks ago just for a chat with a friend who was grass cutting. This fella came running accross the field to inform me that he had called 999 when he saw me "crash", he was a pilot. I told him that he'd better wait at the gate to inform the services that no one was hurt & I just took off and went home. He then told my friend (also a pilot) that I should have had the aircraft checked by an engineer before take off after landing in such a place.
It is such a rare thing now to to see people land "off airport". it used to be grate fun during the haymaking season being able to just "drop in" and visit friends.
Tony
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John F
I can see this for a twin, but what would you advise on single engine aircraft - 550-700 feet per mile depending on engine out/windmilling prop sink rate?
how high you should be when you cross it on the basis of 300 to 350 feet per mile from touchdown
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Reading, Berkshire
Each one is different
The thread started on "Light Aircraft" and "Landing on Grass", which I assume was not necessarily just farm strips.
I fly a spamcam, and thoroughly enjoy it (although if I had the money, I'd definitely move up the GA snob hieirarchy without question
)
During my PPL I was well-trained on both tarmac and grass (perhaps because I told the Instructors I planned to use both, but they all thought it was a good idea and had no problems with it).
I use grass strips often, and have the following 3 golden rules:
1. Always, always phone ahead and get the PPR (irrespective of whether it's a farm strip or any other). If the owner is happy for you to land, don't be afraid to ask as many questions as possible to get an understanding of the area, of obstacles, conditions and so on. Above all, get permission. Often, the owner will want to know your experience and is the best judge of his/her strip, so might suggest you get more experience before landing there.
2. Always, always do the POH calculations and take notice of what they tell you.
3. Every single strip is different. This is the biggest point of all IMHO. Long grass, short grass, dry, wet, flat, bumpy, hard, spongy, rutted, fences, pylons, trees, dips, slopes, sheep, birds, walkers, stones, farm buildings; you name it, each one has a different combination of these.
One of the most challenging (for me) was Westbury-sub-Mendip (now closed) which was neither grass nor tarmac; but this has been discussed in another thread.
Don't let the anti-spamcan brigade put you off; but do follow the rules and believe what the calcs tell you.
On the brakes discussion, in my experience, it doesn't make any difference when the grass is wet; they don't work anyway!
Don't avoid landing on grass, because you miss out on too many wonderful locations. Get an Instructor to give you a couple of sessions and get someone with experience to go with you the first few times to build up some confidence and you'll be fine.
I fly a spamcam, and thoroughly enjoy it (although if I had the money, I'd definitely move up the GA snob hieirarchy without question
)During my PPL I was well-trained on both tarmac and grass (perhaps because I told the Instructors I planned to use both, but they all thought it was a good idea and had no problems with it).
I use grass strips often, and have the following 3 golden rules:
1. Always, always phone ahead and get the PPR (irrespective of whether it's a farm strip or any other). If the owner is happy for you to land, don't be afraid to ask as many questions as possible to get an understanding of the area, of obstacles, conditions and so on. Above all, get permission. Often, the owner will want to know your experience and is the best judge of his/her strip, so might suggest you get more experience before landing there.
2. Always, always do the POH calculations and take notice of what they tell you.
3. Every single strip is different. This is the biggest point of all IMHO. Long grass, short grass, dry, wet, flat, bumpy, hard, spongy, rutted, fences, pylons, trees, dips, slopes, sheep, birds, walkers, stones, farm buildings; you name it, each one has a different combination of these.
One of the most challenging (for me) was Westbury-sub-Mendip (now closed) which was neither grass nor tarmac; but this has been discussed in another thread.
Don't let the anti-spamcan brigade put you off; but do follow the rules and believe what the calcs tell you.
On the brakes discussion, in my experience, it doesn't make any difference when the grass is wet; they don't work anyway!
Don't avoid landing on grass, because you miss out on too many wonderful locations. Get an Instructor to give you a couple of sessions and get someone with experience to go with you the first few times to build up some confidence and you'll be fine.
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Earth
whatunion
Ok, I take your point but I was generalising slightly.
So many times I see light a/c land and then there is the hard dip of the nose as the brakes are applied whilst there is still 400m to go!
In club aircraft it is more prevalent as those who own shy away from very heavy braking once they have paid for their first set of brake pads at the annual check.
Ok, I take your point but I was generalising slightly.
So many times I see light a/c land and then there is the hard dip of the nose as the brakes are applied whilst there is still 400m to go!
In club aircraft it is more prevalent as those who own shy away from very heavy braking once they have paid for their first set of brake pads at the annual check.
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: ex-Abu Dhabi now back in Carrot Cruncher Land
I obtained my PPL nearly 40 years ago at Kiddlington when they only had grass! If my memory serves me correctly CSE Aviation operated the largest flying school in the country at the time and flew many twins (Commance, Navajo).
How times have changed!
How times have changed!
Do a Hover - it avoids G
Joined: Oct 1999
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From: Chichester West Sussex UK
Final 3 Greens
I take your point that 3 to 3.5 deg is shallower than a lot of people fly SEP aircraft and I nearly put 400 to 450 feet per mile. But I decided that the shallower angle is what I would recommend for the case where somebody is going to have their first go at a grass field, perhaps solo. For this first approach it is more important to get the approach and landing right rather than be in a position to glide the rest of the way if the donk should quit.
I feel that shallower approaches give the best and most obvious cues about the angle you are flying and that the steeper you get the harder it is to judge the angle and so the easier it is to arrive at the flare point much steeper than you realised.
Once a runway pilot has overcome the ‘newness’ of setting up the approach to a grass field then like everything else they may modify their technique based on experience.
I take your point that 3 to 3.5 deg is shallower than a lot of people fly SEP aircraft and I nearly put 400 to 450 feet per mile. But I decided that the shallower angle is what I would recommend for the case where somebody is going to have their first go at a grass field, perhaps solo. For this first approach it is more important to get the approach and landing right rather than be in a position to glide the rest of the way if the donk should quit.
I feel that shallower approaches give the best and most obvious cues about the angle you are flying and that the steeper you get the harder it is to judge the angle and so the easier it is to arrive at the flare point much steeper than you realised.
Once a runway pilot has overcome the ‘newness’ of setting up the approach to a grass field then like everything else they may modify their technique based on experience.
aceatco, retired
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: one airshow or another
What's the problem with landing on grass then?
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Official PPRuNe Chaplain
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From: Witnesham, Suffolk
I suppose I was lucky. My first instructor (now flying 737s) insisted on taking me into Ipswich as early as possible so that I could get used to grass. I never had a problem with grass, in that respect.
Where I did have a problem was when a muddy strip deposited a nice divot on the gear microswitch. Landing with two greens was definitely an "interesting" moment. (No, I didn't replace the divot and no, I don't play golf).
Another group member had the same experience the following year. We now have a group rule "No grass in winter or when it's muddy".
Where I did have a problem was when a muddy strip deposited a nice divot on the gear microswitch. Landing with two greens was definitely an "interesting" moment. (No, I didn't replace the divot and no, I don't play golf).
Another group member had the same experience the following year. We now have a group rule "No grass in winter or when it's muddy".
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
smeagol i remember landing at oxford at night on the grass with goosenecks, best fun ever!
tony r your quite right, too deep, too fast, too high its called, tarmacitis.
but you are experienced, its all to easy for the low hour ppl to get it 'orribly wrong.
jayemm, great advice but also find out how many accidents there have been at that particular field, if i had followed my own advice i may not have landed at english bickenor near ross on wye.
i have never been into a short strip since and have no intention of (at least two people have been killed going in here.
can anyone tell me if english bickenor is still going?
tony r your quite right, too deep, too fast, too high its called, tarmacitis.
but you are experienced, its all to easy for the low hour ppl to get it 'orribly wrong.
jayemm, great advice but also find out how many accidents there have been at that particular field, if i had followed my own advice i may not have landed at english bickenor near ross on wye.
i have never been into a short strip since and have no intention of (at least two people have been killed going in here.
can anyone tell me if english bickenor is still going?
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JF
Isee your arguement - less probability of engine quitting than runnning off the end, when inexperienced - makes sense.
But I decided that the shallower angle is what I would recommend for the case where somebody is going to have their first go at a grass field, perhaps solo
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
best short field landing i have ever seen was a comet at strathallan, beautifull landing and roll out, only problem was he took both main legs off crossing the fence.
whatunion says, to look cool you have to miss the fence, on both ends
whatunion says, to look cool you have to miss the fence, on both ends
Northern Monkey
Joined: Apr 2003
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From: Newcastle, England
English Bicknor is still there, I have a friend who lives in the village at the bottom of the hill, and had a walk up there about 3 months ago. Decided against flying there after a quick look, as its still as scary looking as you describe it