What is it about landing on grass?
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: Canada
They buzz around the same bit of sky in the same spam can that they never really mastered.
There are many (perhaps infinite) interesting challenges to flying, but one has to seek them out ... if one just bores endless holes in the sky, feet on the floor and one hand on the 'steering wheel', it is little more than an expensive waste of time.
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From: New South Wales
They're not all like that, but let's face it, someone who gets a PPL and an FI rating as a route to the airlines isn't going to fly a tailwheel aircraft into a short grass strip (or even a longer one) or necessarily empathise with someone else who wants to, are they?
I have no experience of flying anything heavy at all, even a heavy, complex single, but in my naive little world I have to believe this is useful experience whatever you fly, and possibly essential.
QDM
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Well, my flying school just got a few points reading this thread. I did a few touch and goes on grass as well as two or three takeoff's from the grass as part of my training.
The absolute best was doing a check out in Sweden to hire a c172. We flew up to a grass strip and over flew it. Noting the crosswind was totally across the strip and was about 15 knots he suggested this would be a good time to get used to Swedish conditions.
I was told that I could use half the strip only (eeek reduced to about 400 meters), first attempt a total screw up. second the same, third getting better. But, he insisted that he wanted to see one good touch and go before he would let me have the aircraft. Took eight attempts and he accepted the last one. My landing back at the grass strip we had taken off from was the best...but no cross wind there.
The guy was totally calm and relaxed during the entire event, gave me a short lecture on learning how to pronounce the Swedish VRP's better and handed me the keys to a top notch 172.
The absolute best was doing a check out in Sweden to hire a c172. We flew up to a grass strip and over flew it. Noting the crosswind was totally across the strip and was about 15 knots he suggested this would be a good time to get used to Swedish conditions.
I was told that I could use half the strip only (eeek reduced to about 400 meters), first attempt a total screw up. second the same, third getting better. But, he insisted that he wanted to see one good touch and go before he would let me have the aircraft. Took eight attempts and he accepted the last one. My landing back at the grass strip we had taken off from was the best...but no cross wind there.
The guy was totally calm and relaxed during the entire event, gave me a short lecture on learning how to pronounce the Swedish VRP's better and handed me the keys to a top notch 172.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Just South of the last ice sheet
My early flying was all off grass, the first time I landed at Southampton I couldn't figure out which bit of the vast area to land on!
The club I flew with initially banned their AA-5A's from Sandown cos it was bumpy but would let them go everywhere else even WW with it's (then) washboard like runway.
The club I flew with initially banned their AA-5A's from Sandown cos it was bumpy but would let them go everywhere else even WW with it's (then) washboard like runway.
Last edited by LowNSlow; 11th June 2004 at 03:57.
Thread Starter
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
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From: London, UK
Bars Shaker: well done, although it's a bit depressing that it took three pages before we got a spliff gag.
What we still haven't heard is a reasoned case for avoiding grass in ordinary single engined piston aircraft. I am still curious why this is adopted as policy by certain clubs and schools. Individual groups may make the decision based, perhaps, on their members' misunderstandings of their aircraft's capability, those misunderstandings being possibly fed by instructors with a narrow focus; but what about clubs? Is it simply nervousness amongst inexperienced instructors, or do insurers put the pressure on? A commonly reported type of accident involves overloaded low-powered aircraft failing to get safely airborne from grass runways, usually as a result of disregard for performance calculations, so perhaps that sort of thing filters through the insurers to the clubs?
What we still haven't heard is a reasoned case for avoiding grass in ordinary single engined piston aircraft. I am still curious why this is adopted as policy by certain clubs and schools. Individual groups may make the decision based, perhaps, on their members' misunderstandings of their aircraft's capability, those misunderstandings being possibly fed by instructors with a narrow focus; but what about clubs? Is it simply nervousness amongst inexperienced instructors, or do insurers put the pressure on? A commonly reported type of accident involves overloaded low-powered aircraft failing to get safely airborne from grass runways, usually as a result of disregard for performance calculations, so perhaps that sort of thing filters through the insurers to the clubs?
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Europe
Admittedly been only involved in a few aircraft and hence insuring the birds but never came across any limitation regarding grass airfileds or strips.
Suspect some excuses made up to suit, but happy to stand corrected for someone with a different experience.
FD
Suspect some excuses made up to suit, but happy to stand corrected for someone with a different experience.
FD
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What we still haven't heard is a reasoned case for avoiding grass in ordinary single engined piston aircraft.
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Enniskillen
Perhaps there is little room for teaching pilots to use "common sense".
I find that many PPLs treat the instructor as GOD, and therefore don't go out with, or listen to other experienced pilots, where they might learn use their own judgement.
I have flown with a few really good guys who, while not instructors, had thousands of hours doing it for real.
I find that many PPLs treat the instructor as GOD, and therefore don't go out with, or listen to other experienced pilots, where they might learn use their own judgement.
I have flown with a few really good guys who, while not instructors, had thousands of hours doing it for real.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: South Norfolk, England
Grass fearing instructors ... I ask you? 
A while back I posted a few times on an NPPL instructor thread within the Instructors forum. I came away with the impression that too many of the new generation instructors are full of pompus self gratification and an almost total disregard for anyone without some sort of "proffessional" qualification :hmmm: A few seem to think that a PPL simply can't have enough "in depth" knowledge to teach at PPL level ... just shows what Bl
y fools some of them are!
As for grass ... I love the stuff. Green is my favourite colour, I rely on it to feed the cows which pay for my flying and it's just great to land on. It doesn't make nice wine though as I tried it once when I had a craze for home brewing
SS
A while back I posted a few times on an NPPL instructor thread within the Instructors forum. I came away with the impression that too many of the new generation instructors are full of pompus self gratification and an almost total disregard for anyone without some sort of "proffessional" qualification :hmmm: A few seem to think that a PPL simply can't have enough "in depth" knowledge to teach at PPL level ... just shows what Bl
y fools some of them are!As for grass ... I love the stuff. Green is my favourite colour, I rely on it to feed the cows which pay for my flying and it's just great to land on. It doesn't make nice wine though as I tried it once when I had a craze for home brewing
SS
Joined: Apr 2004
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From: uk
Learnt to fly at Derby - Eggington, grass nice short runways
, fly Mr Cessna's 2 and 4 seat spam cans in and out of Popham, grass what's the problem? 
Fly same in to farm strips, Garston farm, Draycott Farm, took some bickies to Aero Fab, Thanx for a very interesting afternoon guys.
Before drift on to different thread, you can meet some laid back people at the grass strips, those who stick to tarmac really missing out.
, fly Mr Cessna's 2 and 4 seat spam cans in and out of Popham, grass what's the problem? Fly same in to farm strips, Garston farm, Draycott Farm, took some bickies to Aero Fab, Thanx for a very interesting afternoon guys.
Before drift on to different thread, you can meet some laid back people at the grass strips, those who stick to tarmac really missing out.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: SX in SX in UK
The only reason I can think of for schools etc banning their aircraft from grass is the uncertainty of the factoring effect on take-off and landing roll.
With a hard runway you know what you have got and the only effects you need to consider are slope and wind, which are obviously common to grass strips too.
With a grass runway, it starts to get a bit subjective, is the grass long or short? Is a bit of dew classed as wet grass or dry? Theres been no rain for a few days and the grass is dry, but the ground is still soft, does that class as dry or wet? Its all a matter of opinion.
Now you can insist that your students or renters either factor in long wet grass x1.3 (safety factor) whenever they use a grass strip and call the result their T/O & landing rolls or just ban your aircraft from grass all together.
With a hard runway you know what you have got and the only effects you need to consider are slope and wind, which are obviously common to grass strips too.
With a grass runway, it starts to get a bit subjective, is the grass long or short? Is a bit of dew classed as wet grass or dry? Theres been no rain for a few days and the grass is dry, but the ground is still soft, does that class as dry or wet? Its all a matter of opinion.
Now you can insist that your students or renters either factor in long wet grass x1.3 (safety factor) whenever they use a grass strip and call the result their T/O & landing rolls or just ban your aircraft from grass all together.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: DNMM/UK
My instructor was an hour builder (he's got a REAL job now) but he still taught me to take off and land from grass (so they all aren't that bad). My home airport has two short grass rwys and my club doesn't have any restrictions on flying from grass.
But I totally agree with kolibear that there are a lot more variables to deal with.
It's all down to airmanship at the end of the day. Schools don't necesarily have to teach people how to land on grass. What they have do is ensure that students have a strong sense of airmanship before they are let loose.
Unfortunataley many schools offer substandard training and then make up ridiculous rules and myths to cover their a$$es
Capt. m
But I totally agree with kolibear that there are a lot more variables to deal with.
It's all down to airmanship at the end of the day. Schools don't necesarily have to teach people how to land on grass. What they have do is ensure that students have a strong sense of airmanship before they are let loose.
Unfortunataley many schools offer substandard training and then make up ridiculous rules and myths to cover their a$$es
Capt. m
Joined: Apr 2002
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Surrey, UK ;
Grass Landings
I did my first 2 flights at Manchester, my first solo at Chester and then about 25 hours at Barton - after which I was pretty accustomed to grass, mostly bumpy, muddy etc.
A few years later I finished my PPL at Luton but doing circuits at Cambridge. On one occasion at Cambridge a Herc was on the runway and the controller asked me to switch to 23 grass, which I did. My instructor, who must have been inattentive for a moment, suddenly looked ahead and realised I was 10 feet short of the grass not the hard stuff and went ballistic that I was going to put his Cherokee on that stuff.
Nethertheless I did a perfect touch and go and went back to 23 main. It seemed that Shaun's only real problem was getting his aeroplane dirty - but I was not under any circumstances apart from engine failure, to go near grass again.
Now I fly off tarmac at Fairoaks and park on the grass, so the aeroplanes still get muddy.
In also fly into Sandown and Goodwood and it never occurred to me that I was going on to the dreaded grass, where I hadn't ventured for years, and apart from the absence of yellow lines to follow, was no deal at all. Certainly our club has no problems about grass at all, as the above are two pretty popular destinations.
I completely fail to see what anybody has against grass ... if it's short or there are adjacent obstacles, take the necessary precautions and adjust your "approach" accordingly.
It seems prety damn silly to me however that we all do lots of PFLs - universally onto grass - but it seesm that many, many people never get to find out what the stuff is like should they be forced to venture onto it. Why doesn't the syllabus insist on some "real" pfls onto a short grass strip as part of the training ?
Seems a bit brighter than risking the 500 foot rule all the time.
A few years later I finished my PPL at Luton but doing circuits at Cambridge. On one occasion at Cambridge a Herc was on the runway and the controller asked me to switch to 23 grass, which I did. My instructor, who must have been inattentive for a moment, suddenly looked ahead and realised I was 10 feet short of the grass not the hard stuff and went ballistic that I was going to put his Cherokee on that stuff.
Nethertheless I did a perfect touch and go and went back to 23 main. It seemed that Shaun's only real problem was getting his aeroplane dirty - but I was not under any circumstances apart from engine failure, to go near grass again.
Now I fly off tarmac at Fairoaks and park on the grass, so the aeroplanes still get muddy.
In also fly into Sandown and Goodwood and it never occurred to me that I was going on to the dreaded grass, where I hadn't ventured for years, and apart from the absence of yellow lines to follow, was no deal at all. Certainly our club has no problems about grass at all, as the above are two pretty popular destinations.
I completely fail to see what anybody has against grass ... if it's short or there are adjacent obstacles, take the necessary precautions and adjust your "approach" accordingly.
It seems prety damn silly to me however that we all do lots of PFLs - universally onto grass - but it seesm that many, many people never get to find out what the stuff is like should they be forced to venture onto it. Why doesn't the syllabus insist on some "real" pfls onto a short grass strip as part of the training ?
Seems a bit brighter than risking the 500 foot rule all the time.
Joined: May 2004
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From: london
all runways should be grass, they minimise impact and they teach respectful braking. i say we should start a campaign to have all runways returned to grass. just think of all the airports that could afford to put in a second runway, all you need is a roller and some grass seed. anybody got the BAAs email address.
Joined: May 2003
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From: Essex, UK
FNG, I nearly didn't but had consumed a huge amount of Grolsch at the time 
What this thread shows is that lots of pilots are really missing out. Not some, but most of the best fields in the UK are grass. En La Belle France, you will struggle to find a better welcome than the grass strips afford.
As has been said many times above, grass is much more forgiving (for which I am often grateful) than tarmac and all you new pilots/grass virgins should try it.
bs
What this thread shows is that lots of pilots are really missing out. Not some, but most of the best fields in the UK are grass. En La Belle France, you will struggle to find a better welcome than the grass strips afford.
As has been said many times above, grass is much more forgiving (for which I am often grateful) than tarmac and all you new pilots/grass virgins should try it.
bs
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Enniskillen
they minimise impact and they teach respectful braking
Some of my early training flights was in G-BFBF, a PA28 140, with only the handbrake. I was taught that brakes were for power checks and for turning in a tailwheel a/c. NEVER to be used to slow down an aircraft.
Why do I see pilots at (EGAA) (BFS) (Aldergrove) having to stand on the brakes to stop before the first taxiway (1200 M) into the runway. Better to keep them off the grass.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: UK
"Much more forgiving"? Not always. This thread has concentrated on the merits of grass runways, and on denigrating the pilots and instructors who avoid it. That's fair enough, but it's worth looking at the downsides too.
The major issue with a grass surface is not that it's green, but that it can be uneven. Surfaces vary, from the "billiard tables" to the "rollercoasters", so there's obviously no standard, but even the finest grass surface has the potential of hiding a rough patch that you wouldn't find on a tarmac strip. I say "potential" because you can take-off and land on a grass surface 100 times and not find the rough patch. But looking at accident rates overall, 99% success is not great!
Uneven may not be a problem -- it's very dependent on the aircraft. Having spent 10 years flying a Mooney with a very stiff undercarriage and minimal prop clearance, I can vouch for it being a problem for some. That's not to say that you can't operate a Mooney off grass -- you can, but the risks of an expensive but knock are higher.
Crosswind take-offs (in particular) also seem to be more challenging on grass. There you are ten knots below rotation relying on a little lateral grip from the wheels and ... whoops... the wheels just lost contact with the runway.
When you get to twins, it starts getting serious quickly. The Seneca fatal accident at Newmarket was almost certainly a consequence of the surface. A prop strike on take-off in a twin is more than just expensive. Again, you can operate twins off poor surfaces, but it's important to think through the downsides.
Overall, I think that makes it even more important that pilot training includes some operation from grass, to build appreciation that it's different. Grass is great, but let's not take it for granted.
The major issue with a grass surface is not that it's green, but that it can be uneven. Surfaces vary, from the "billiard tables" to the "rollercoasters", so there's obviously no standard, but even the finest grass surface has the potential of hiding a rough patch that you wouldn't find on a tarmac strip. I say "potential" because you can take-off and land on a grass surface 100 times and not find the rough patch. But looking at accident rates overall, 99% success is not great!
Uneven may not be a problem -- it's very dependent on the aircraft. Having spent 10 years flying a Mooney with a very stiff undercarriage and minimal prop clearance, I can vouch for it being a problem for some. That's not to say that you can't operate a Mooney off grass -- you can, but the risks of an expensive but knock are higher.
Crosswind take-offs (in particular) also seem to be more challenging on grass. There you are ten knots below rotation relying on a little lateral grip from the wheels and ... whoops... the wheels just lost contact with the runway.
When you get to twins, it starts getting serious quickly. The Seneca fatal accident at Newmarket was almost certainly a consequence of the surface. A prop strike on take-off in a twin is more than just expensive. Again, you can operate twins off poor surfaces, but it's important to think through the downsides.
Overall, I think that makes it even more important that pilot training includes some operation from grass, to build appreciation that it's different. Grass is great, but let's not take it for granted.