What is it about landing on grass?

[FNG]

I've noticed in a few threads recently that quite a few people have never landed on grass and/or aren't allowed to by their groups/clubs. Leaving aside people who fly mega twins, turboprops or whatever, (although as far as I know some of these land happily enough on grass when depositing jockeys at Newmarket and other such places), and assuming that people are flying the usual range of SEP aircraft, what is it that keeps people off the grass?*

This really is not intended to be a "grass roots flyers vs spam can drivers" thread (after all, plenty of people learn in spam cans at grass airfields), but is a genuine enquiry as to what people are told about grass runways by schools, clubs etc. Are there any statistics to suggest that operating on grass runways (leaving aside short farm strips) leads to more accidents? I cannot see why there should be.


* I refer, principally, to grass runways at mainstream airfields rather than small grass strips.

[TonyR]

I took an instructor flying a couple of weeks ago who had never landed on grass. He as turned out had been telling his students that grass was much to dangerous for PA28s and such like.

I mostly learned to fly in C172 and always in the early days found it much easier to land on grass.

Some of most delightful airfields in the UK and Ireland are grass, (Sherburn, Clonbalogue & Kilkenny come to mind) and the folks who drive on big wide roads are missing out on a lot of fun.

Tony

[Fly Stimulator]

Interesting question. There do seem to be some slightly odd assumptions around; the idea that permit aircraft are not allowed out of the UK being another example that has come up more than once.

It makes me wonder about where people normally go for advice and/or information on the large number of things which one doesn't know about flying on the day one's new licence drops through the letterbox.

In my case a significant amount of information has come from this very forum, and some through magazines. Not much came through talking to other pilots at my original flying club though, since hardly anybody there ever ventured far beyond the local area and only two had ever flown outside the UK. Perhaps that's not uncommon.

Leaving aside people who fly mega twins, turboprops or whatever,

Just on that particular point, there are some shots here of some reasonably heavy metal parked quite happily at the delightful little 600m sloping grass strip at Verchocq near Le Touquet. Very well worth a visit by the way both for the strip itself and the food!

[FNG]

Blimey, Tony, it seems to me astonishing that a person could qualify as an instructor without ever landing a simple light aeroplane on a grass runway, and, moreover, suggest to others that it is dangerous to do so.

[maggioneato]

I was never allowed to fly a club aircraft in to grass strips. After moving to a less restrictive club, I discovered the delights of grass flying and am now based at the first strip I flew in to. I think most people are put off by the image of strip flying as it's presented by the flying schools, and they can't be bothered to teach the techniques necessary, or maybe they don't know how to. I would'nt go back to tarmac even in winter.

[Flyin'Dutch']

F,

But I think that is where the nub of the problem is.

Due to the structure of training a lot of instructors are very experienced in a very small area of aviation and never venture out of the mould.

Furthermore there is no formal further training/coaching which people can easily access.

Folks have to be lucky and either learn from friends they make at the airport or their syndicate or glean some from BBs and email lists.

The main reason why so many folks hang up their expensively acquired wings is that they don't get trained to be able the things for which they think they want their licences. As in they all think they get a licence to go touring but get made ready to bash the circuit at infinitum.

Yup some grassfields can be challenging but the vast majority are just fine for most of the GA fleet.

The airfields I mentioned on the other thread where people had flown to and claimed never to have been to a grass field (Duxford, Shoreham and Kemble) all have fine grass strips.

FD

[TonyR]

This instructor was to do his rating at Andrewsfield but went somewhere else because Andrewsfeld was in a mess during the winter a few years ago.

I took him into 600M of grass in the TB20 but I doubt if he will change his views on grass, the Idea of comming over the fence at 10ft and less than 60knots in a (lightly loaded) TB20 disturbed him. I know he told others that I was taking unnecessary risks flying into short grass airfields. (I never thought of 600M as being short).

His loss

Tony

[A and C]

TonyR

The guy is a pratt and should not have an instructors rating , on another thread I have had a few things to say about the standard of instruction of late.

I can only shudder to think what this so called instructors attitude to spinning is !!!!!!!!.

[TonyR]

Yes I think so too, but thats the type of instructor we have in many flying clubs/schools today.

If I do ever get him up again I'll let you know what he thinks of spinning, or even being inverted.

Tony

[FNG]

Some instructors on the ATPL career path appear to have no interest in what you might term "aviation culture". I wonder what makes them want to fly? Is it perhaps an interest in technology, coupled with the remaining perception of airline flying as glamorous? (I must say that the glamour of punting a 737 full of mouth-breathing Big Brother viewers around Europe escapes me).

[Airbus Girl]

Well, for those reading who don't know much about grass strips.

You do need to have a think about them before landing at a strip for various reasons.

1. Some are short/ narrow, close to trees, obstacles, etc. in which case you need to have a bit of a think about landing distances, windshear, sink, etc. and also getting out again.

2. You need to know if the ground is wet, the grass long, or the surface rutted at all - all could affect your landing or take off seriously.

3. You might need to have a closer look at your performance figures for this reason (and do the calculations properly).

But other than that, not a problem! I love grass!!!!!
Much easier with a tailwheel.....

[Whirlybird]

When I first asked about landing on grass, I couldn't find anyone at the school who'd done so. I went ahead and did it anyway. When I asked about flying taildraggers, ditto. This included instructors. They're not all like that, but let's face it, someone who gets a PPL and an FI rating as a route to the airlines isn't going to fly a tailwheel aircraft into a short grass strip (or even a longer one) or necessarily empathise with someone else who wants to, are they?

The basic trouble is, students and new PPLs think every instructor is a demi-god and the fount of all knowledge on all things aviation. As a new(ish) rotary FI, I'll tell you, we're not!! An FI course teaches us a bit more about flying, and how to teach others to do it to a basic level, in the machines we're likely to be teaching on. That's all. We are not experts on other sorts of flying, other types of flying machine (which is why I show my lack of knowledge of f/w flying with monotonous regularity), aeronautical engineering, or the finer points of air law in obscure third world countries. We know how to teach you to fly and get through your ground exams, that's all.

However, I hope that if someone asked me about flying self-build helicopters in the Scottish Highlands, I'd at least give them an idea of where to go to find out about it. Putting people off, unless its something obviously dangerous, is not on, IMHO.

[A and C]

still fun !

FNG.......... Visual into Corfu !.

Kick the autopilot out at 10,000ft and fly it like a small aircraft , it's great fun !

But I have to agree with you , just take a look at the "Greek Islands " thread on R&N and you will see that a lot of these people seem to think that a landing is not safe without an ILS.

[FNG]

A and C, a mate of mine who flies an Airbus when not hopping about in his Cub often switches off all the techno toys at Burnham and yams it into Heathrow by hand. The 12 year old FOs get very jumpy, apparently.

Strip flying is one thing, but I can't figure out the reluctance to take an ordinary trike into an ordinary grass runway on an ordinary airfield.

[ShyTorque]

The point about people specialising so much whilst being very good at what they do is not confined to the civilian world.

Was once taken to one side by an RAF CFS Standards pilot who was to be based at our grass airfield (3000ft plus and a choice of six runways) for a few weeks during a University Air Squadron summer camp. He told me he was quite worried about the thought because in over 25 years of flying, he had never landed on grass!

I was quite taken aback.

He asked about runway length, techniques (?) etc. I discussed short dry grass etc and told him just to watch out for the deep, wet, mud...

When I told him I had taken the Bullfrog into Netherthorpe (330m or so in those days, before that runway realignment / extension - to a huge 340m) and out again without any problem he seemed to be a little happier.

I couldn't resist scaring him again by talking about night flying onto grass with only temporary edge lighting and no white centreline markings...a big black hole to land in...hehehe

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I can't figure out the reluctance to take an ordinary trike into an ordinary grass runway on an ordinary airfield

Where I was taught to fly initial circuit training was on the tarmac but when the instructor decided it was worth trying to get the student more accurate the rather shorter and narrower grass runway was used instead. When I do circuit practice I generally use the grass.

Actually, getting authorised for a solo flight the other day, the instructor asked me why I thought I could go flying in that crosswind. I looked blank and said that my calculations showed it was OK on the cross grass runway. He hadn't thought of that and had only worked it out for the tarmac.

[DRJAD]

I learned to fly initially at Birmingham, then a few lessons in Leeds, then went to Sherburn to complete my PPL and get an IMCR.

I hasten to add that I do not fly taildraggers as yet, nor yet have I ventured into a farm strip.

However, being based at Sherburn, I frequently use grass and tarmac. It does not seem to be an issue, whether at Sherburn or elsewhere.

During instruction, though nothing overt was said about differences, the culture of the teaching I received made me careful to include the nature of the runway surface in my take-off and landing run calculations. Of course, that covers more than surface type, and has to include current surface conditions. Nevertheless, the culture made one alert to the sections of the theoretical material dealing with these matters, as well as practised in using both grass and hard surfaces. Obstacles on the approach or near to the runway must, of course, be considered, but that is necessarily part of planning for any flight, surely.

It is, though, the culture that needs to pervade, I believe, i.e. that whatever the runway type, judge it as well as possible, plan thoroughly, and there should be no undue problem.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Whirly wrote:

Putting people off, unless its something obviously dangerous, is not on, IMHO.

A very effective way for demi-gods to preserve their status!

FD

[Monocock]

I cannot help feeling that there is a perceived added risk to landing on grass. Many clubs will not let their aircraft be rented out if the renter intends to land on a private grass strip. Strangely, they are more than happy if the renter is heading for somewhere like Goodwood or Sywell. Perhaps they are concerned that the renter will become confident with a nice 700 metre grass strip and then try to get in and out of a 450 m sloping one ?

However, runway length aside, the average student can do a lot more damage to undercarriage on tarmac due to its unforgiving nature and added lateral stress it can cause to gear legs on touchdown.

Tarmac runways are more often than not a lot longer than their grass counterparts. Aircraft accelaration is undoubtedly better on concrete and braking is normally better due to the adhesion of tyres on the surface. However, a poorly timed kick of rudder to reduce crabbing will cleanly remove the undercarriage sometimes on tarmac. On grass it usually does little more than cause one person to hit their head on the window and the other to lurch the same way.

There is a very snobbish attitude towards grass strips and I must say it is amazing to think that some pilots have never actually landed on one. bpilatus is not allowed to land at Sandown for the fly-in as it is a group rule for the a/c to remain on tarmac.

What kind of pilots are we breeding these days?

Is it that the "Zero to ATPL" brigade are being so rushed through their syllabusses (syllabii?) that they just don't go to grass strips anymore? When they are asked to by a student do they just freeze at the thought?

I believe there is a club that actually do a Farm Strip Flying Course. Sounds like a great idea to me for those who want to discover this type of flying. If I have the choice of the two surfaces I will opt for grass everytime and I still did when I had the PA28.

[rustle]

what is it that keeps people off the grass?*

Training & club regs would be my guess.

My FTO didn't train students for grass operations even though there is a perfectly useable grass runway at the airfield.

My first grass landing was 24 months after I had done my PPL with a mate in his own aircraft. (Exactly the same aircraft the fto banned from grass airfields, an AA5B)

Our twin syndicate does not allow use at grass airfields. Period.