Tailwheel/crosswind advice please!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not true, QDM. In the Europa mono-wheel, de-crabbing is the only way to go, because any kind of wing-low landing will result in landing on an outrigger, and they're not designed to take that kind of punishment. But having said that, I agree with you in the more general case - unless there's a good reason not to do so, a wing-low landing is almost always going to be best in any light tail-dragger. That's definitely the case in every type I've flown except for the Europa
Following Langewiesche, perhaps I should have referred simply to 'light conventional gear aircraft'.
QDM
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FFF :
To answer your question I have two reasons.
(1) They are learning something new, so I instill a new method of landing first, the biggest problem with making good wheel landings is judging when, how and why to make smooth accurate flares so as to touch down in the proper attitude without using up hundreds of feet feeling for the runway. The longer you take from the flare to touch down the more time the airplane has to change direction and height.
(2) Most pilots approach tailwheel airplanes with the beliefe that the three point is the preferred method of landing, this is not true as both methods have their own special benefits.
The wheel landing will generally give the best results in X/winds on paved runways, as well as the added safety if a go around is easier if started with speed and control responses to safely go around as in do another circuit .... rather than go around as in a ground loop.
May I suggest that the need to move the stick / control wheel foward becomes less signifigant when you touch down in the proper attitude as you complete the flare from the approach attitude to the landing attitude, properly executed and with slight nose down trim in the latter stages of the approach only requires you to relax back pressure slightly at touch down to transfer the weight to the wheels smoothly rather than over rotating the nose down by "pushing " the stick / wheel.
Remember these are only my personal thoughts and methods used to teach tailwheel flying, also I am not all that good at typing and trying to transfer my thoughts on a computer, I am far more comfortable and I hope understandable when interacting one on one in person.
Please do not take my comments to infer that my way is any better than anyone elses, it is just that after 52 years of flying tailwheel airplanes I find this works best for me.
Chuck
To answer your question I have two reasons.
(1) They are learning something new, so I instill a new method of landing first, the biggest problem with making good wheel landings is judging when, how and why to make smooth accurate flares so as to touch down in the proper attitude without using up hundreds of feet feeling for the runway. The longer you take from the flare to touch down the more time the airplane has to change direction and height.
(2) Most pilots approach tailwheel airplanes with the beliefe that the three point is the preferred method of landing, this is not true as both methods have their own special benefits.
The wheel landing will generally give the best results in X/winds on paved runways, as well as the added safety if a go around is easier if started with speed and control responses to safely go around as in do another circuit .... rather than go around as in a ground loop.
May I suggest that the need to move the stick / control wheel foward becomes less signifigant when you touch down in the proper attitude as you complete the flare from the approach attitude to the landing attitude, properly executed and with slight nose down trim in the latter stages of the approach only requires you to relax back pressure slightly at touch down to transfer the weight to the wheels smoothly rather than over rotating the nose down by "pushing " the stick / wheel.
Remember these are only my personal thoughts and methods used to teach tailwheel flying, also I am not all that good at typing and trying to transfer my thoughts on a computer, I am far more comfortable and I hope understandable when interacting one on one in person.
Please do not take my comments to infer that my way is any better than anyone elses, it is just that after 52 years of flying tailwheel airplanes I find this works best for me.
Chuck
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: South Norfolk, England
Age: 58
Posts: 1,195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nobody has mentioned "paddleing" the rudder?
Perhaps not the most scientific but it can help if rudder authourity is an issue in something with little or no braking. As the speed bleeds off try literally dabbing the rudder one way then the other. I found this worked well on a Tempete I used to fly from the hard runway at Shoreham.
SS
Perhaps not the most scientific but it can help if rudder authourity is an issue in something with little or no braking. As the speed bleeds off try literally dabbing the rudder one way then the other. I found this worked well on a Tempete I used to fly from the hard runway at Shoreham.
SS
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See page 2 of this thread
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=2
for the text of a recent lecture on flying WW2 fighters which, as well as being interesting in its own right, includes useful comments on grass vs hard runways etc. I am trying to find a very old link to a very clear posting by John Farley about ground looping (I have one thing in common with Mr Farley: I only ever ground loop when I have an audience. Alas, there the comparisons between us as pilots must end. )
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=2
for the text of a recent lecture on flying WW2 fighters which, as well as being interesting in its own right, includes useful comments on grass vs hard runways etc. I am trying to find a very old link to a very clear posting by John Farley about ground looping (I have one thing in common with Mr Farley: I only ever ground loop when I have an audience. Alas, there the comparisons between us as pilots must end. )
122.45 does your Jodel have tailwheel steering? If it doesn't then the only way you will maintain directional control in a crosswind is by judicious use of the brakes. Even if it does have steering brakes may still need to be used. It should be quite hard to get the aeroplane to stand on it's nose by using one brake. Don't stand on the pedals but equally, don't be afraid to use them. As you slow down into the 30-20knts range that is giving you the problem, a trickle of power up to say 800-900 rpm should provide enough airflow to energise the rudder without adding so much thrust that you stop slowing down. Try it on a long field first!!!!!
I have heard that Jodels aren't very tolerant of sideways thrust being applied to the undercarriage but they can't be that bad or there would be legless Jodels all over the place. Any Jodel owners out there care to comment?
Another alternative is to buy an Auster. With a free, unlockabe, castoring tailwheel and a powerful rudder they can be VERY entertaining in a crosswind.
I have heard that Jodels aren't very tolerant of sideways thrust being applied to the undercarriage but they can't be that bad or there would be legless Jodels all over the place. Any Jodel owners out there care to comment?
Another alternative is to buy an Auster. With a free, unlockabe, castoring tailwheel and a powerful rudder they can be VERY entertaining in a crosswind.
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck, have you ever tried a wheeler in a Cap 10? It's a bit of a pain, as the prop clearance is poor. If you have, any tips gratefully received. Landing this type on a hard runway in a crosswind is always, ahem, character forming.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FNG :
Alas, I have never flown a Cap 10.
However when first approacing any new tailwheel airplane with the first thing I check for is prop clearance with the tail in the air.
Most, but not all airplanes we get to fly will not have enough elevator effectiveness to raise the tail high enough to strike the prop on the ground.
However it is very simple to check and be sure, not to mention cheaper.
It is good practice to always keep the airplane within one thousandth of an inch from the center line, that way you stay ahead of the damn thing at all times. And if nothing else you should never run it off the runway.
Chuck
Alas, I have never flown a Cap 10.
However when first approacing any new tailwheel airplane with the first thing I check for is prop clearance with the tail in the air.
Most, but not all airplanes we get to fly will not have enough elevator effectiveness to raise the tail high enough to strike the prop on the ground.
However it is very simple to check and be sure, not to mention cheaper.
It is good practice to always keep the airplane within one thousandth of an inch from the center line, that way you stay ahead of the damn thing at all times. And if nothing else you should never run it off the runway.
Chuck
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Shrewsbury, UK
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you all - it's great to get input from people with so much experience (several people said they 'only' have several hundred hours, you have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about it!). Great tips, so I just need to get them into my head for next time
LowNSlow - the Jodel does have a steerable tailwheel. It's generally very easy to control on the ground, although I haven't mastered the art of the effortless turn through 90 or 180 degrees with just a dab of brake and burst of power that my instructor manages. The slowing down bit we've discussed is the only bit that really causes me trouble.
Chimbu Chuckles - great tales! I searched for you on PPRuNe, found plenty more. Sounds like you've had an interesting career!
I have got a copy of Langeweische, but I have never liked it much. I don't know why, as so many people think it is great. I also have Harvey S. Plourde which I really like - however, I seem to forget parts of it when I really need it...
Thanks again to one and all!
LowNSlow - the Jodel does have a steerable tailwheel. It's generally very easy to control on the ground, although I haven't mastered the art of the effortless turn through 90 or 180 degrees with just a dab of brake and burst of power that my instructor manages. The slowing down bit we've discussed is the only bit that really causes me trouble.
Chimbu Chuckles - great tales! I searched for you on PPRuNe, found plenty more. Sounds like you've had an interesting career!
I have got a copy of Langeweische, but I have never liked it much. I don't know why, as so many people think it is great. I also have Harvey S. Plourde which I really like - however, I seem to forget parts of it when I really need it...
Thanks again to one and all!
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New South Wales
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
several people said they 'only' have several hundred hours, you have probably forgotten more than I'll ever know about it
;-)
QDM
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm a big fan of Langewische, but more on account of his general observations on flying than for his stuff on tailwheel landings. He was, of course, an advocate of triking, calling tailwheel undercarriage good for takeoffs but poor for landing.
Have you tried David Robson's book "Three Points"? I liked it.
Have you tried David Robson's book "Three Points"? I liked it.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Too much bollox is attributed to tailwheelers.
Until 40 years ago everybody learned to fly on them and they soloed and got their licences a lot quicker than we do today.
If you can fly a trigear the way they are supposed to be flown and stay on top of it you will be fine with a tailwheel machine.
There are very few good tailwheel instructors around which propagates the myths as rather than proper tuition it becomes a matter of the blind leading the blind.
If you want to learn to fly them properly go and seek out a 'proper' tailwheel instructor, not someone who has only got the 'tick in the box'
FD
PS: The books are fine if you want to kill some time reading aviation stuff on a cold winter's evening but not necessary to understand the matter or to make a good landing. The theory of tailwheel flying can be written on the back of a (small) envelope
Until 40 years ago everybody learned to fly on them and they soloed and got their licences a lot quicker than we do today.
If you can fly a trigear the way they are supposed to be flown and stay on top of it you will be fine with a tailwheel machine.
There are very few good tailwheel instructors around which propagates the myths as rather than proper tuition it becomes a matter of the blind leading the blind.
If you want to learn to fly them properly go and seek out a 'proper' tailwheel instructor, not someone who has only got the 'tick in the box'
FD
PS: The books are fine if you want to kill some time reading aviation stuff on a cold winter's evening but not necessary to understand the matter or to make a good landing. The theory of tailwheel flying can be written on the back of a (small) envelope
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Enniskillen
Age: 67
Posts: 479
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the whole tail wheel thing is as much a state of mind as anything else. Most of my 400 odd hour tailwheel time was on Cessna 185s, often the same day flying 206s. I never really noticed the difference.
Practice is the only way to improve crosswind landings, no mater what you are flying. You first must realise that you are going to "MAKE" the aircraft do something it does not want to do. You must then be aware of what the aircraft "might" do if you stop flying it.
We all, given time, develop our own crosswind skill, the important thing is to know your limits, know the aircraft limit and know the airfield well. This will not hapen in 25 hours but if you can keep pushing your self with the help of a good instructor, you will soon wonder why you ask the question in the first place.
Stay safe
Tony
Practice is the only way to improve crosswind landings, no mater what you are flying. You first must realise that you are going to "MAKE" the aircraft do something it does not want to do. You must then be aware of what the aircraft "might" do if you stop flying it.
We all, given time, develop our own crosswind skill, the important thing is to know your limits, know the aircraft limit and know the airfield well. This will not hapen in 25 hours but if you can keep pushing your self with the help of a good instructor, you will soon wonder why you ask the question in the first place.
Stay safe
Tony
Have you tried David Robson's book "Three Points"? I liked it.
Unfortunately, I've never flown the CAP. Dave and I often get together to debate aspects of his books. Over a bottle of red wine is much better than on PPRuNe. Reminds me, I still haven't got him in my Decathlon to resolve some differences we have.
I agree with FD about the envelope but the book helps to change people's habits and get their brain in gear.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: SE
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
122.45, if you haven't yet contacted the Jodel owners' group, you might find it invaluable. The small contact I've had with some of their number is recommendation. Ditto the PFA boards, where there are, perhaps, a higher proprtion of taildraggin' types than here (although not necessarily a larger number). When I acquired my current love, I joined the associated club and have found nothing but help, advice and support: a little money that's been repaid with interest already.
I have only been in a Jodel once and was impressed by the differences between that and the Cubs and Citabria I'd flown up to that time. To reiterate what others have said, you seem to be doing just fine. Don't beat yourself up, go play and enjoy the experiences (matron says so).
On the second subject and as one who did, but during training, I can assure you it doesn't have to be scary. The Citabria knew more about what was happening than I did.
I have only been in a Jodel once and was impressed by the differences between that and the Cubs and Citabria I'd flown up to that time. To reiterate what others have said, you seem to be doing just fine. Don't beat yourself up, go play and enjoy the experiences (matron says so).
On the second subject and as one who did, but during training, I can assure you it doesn't have to be scary. The Citabria knew more about what was happening than I did.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Home
Posts: 329
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a good thread.
FNG - I was taught to always 3 point the Cap 10, and as you say it can be a bit skittish on a hard runway in a crosswind.
I've only got a few hours on small Jodels (D113 and D119), but it is quite normal to need a bit of brake to keep them straight in a crosswind. The larger ones that I normally fly (D140) are much easier. The Jodel undercarriage is not strong, and a groundloop on a hard runway will very often cause it to fail.
QDM - glad you've found yourself a sloping strip!
You're right about it being difficult to do a gentle touchdown - and it's often safer to be firm. It's best to pick your touchdown point from the air, then work out where you need to flare in order to touchdown there. The flare will be a bit higher than normal due to the slope. You can flare at a normal height, keeping the power on as you do so, and then fly up the hill - but it only works on gentle slopes and it makes life difficult. With practice you can touchdown where you want in a 3 point attitude even on quite a steep slope - but it's not always gentle. You need to come and do that mountain flying course!! Funnily enough, the combination of a crosswind and a sloping runway seems to present far less problems than a crosswind on the flat. It may be just psychological, or perhaps it's due to the faster deceleration...
FNG - I was taught to always 3 point the Cap 10, and as you say it can be a bit skittish on a hard runway in a crosswind.
I've only got a few hours on small Jodels (D113 and D119), but it is quite normal to need a bit of brake to keep them straight in a crosswind. The larger ones that I normally fly (D140) are much easier. The Jodel undercarriage is not strong, and a groundloop on a hard runway will very often cause it to fail.
QDM - glad you've found yourself a sloping strip!
You're right about it being difficult to do a gentle touchdown - and it's often safer to be firm. It's best to pick your touchdown point from the air, then work out where you need to flare in order to touchdown there. The flare will be a bit higher than normal due to the slope. You can flare at a normal height, keeping the power on as you do so, and then fly up the hill - but it only works on gentle slopes and it makes life difficult. With practice you can touchdown where you want in a 3 point attitude even on quite a steep slope - but it's not always gentle. You need to come and do that mountain flying course!! Funnily enough, the combination of a crosswind and a sloping runway seems to present far less problems than a crosswind on the flat. It may be just psychological, or perhaps it's due to the faster deceleration...
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rigging check ?
It may be time to get your hands dirty !.
The Rigging of the mainwheels on the Jodel aircraft is quite critical to the handling on the ground so it may be time that you checked the wheels for the correct rigging ( toe in or out I cant remember on this type ).
If the wheels are out of rigg it could be the aircraft that is the problem and not the way you are landing it !.
The Rigging of the mainwheels on the Jodel aircraft is quite critical to the handling on the ground so it may be time that you checked the wheels for the correct rigging ( toe in or out I cant remember on this type ).
If the wheels are out of rigg it could be the aircraft that is the problem and not the way you are landing it !.
Not so N, but still FG
Join Date: May 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 1,417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
djpil, please pass on to Mr Robson my compliments on his books, also endorsed by my main instructor (who sometimes posts here as Snakecharmer). I think that Mr Robson has a particularly lucid style, and enjoyed the discussion of various whacky types, including Winjeels, in the appendix to his tailwheelie book.
AF, I was taught Cap 10 wheelers, but advised to avoid them if possible, and go for the three pointer on most occasions. Skittish is the word: the differential brakes are definitely needed during the landing roll if the wind is contrariwise, and even more so on a hard surface. Taxying the thing in a stiff breeze can be a bit like spending time on a Stairmaster.
I flew a Chipmunk a few weeks ago, for the first time since I was a spotty Air Cadet, but there was no wind to speak of, so I didn't get to find out what it does when the wind is un co-operative.
AF, I was taught Cap 10 wheelers, but advised to avoid them if possible, and go for the three pointer on most occasions. Skittish is the word: the differential brakes are definitely needed during the landing roll if the wind is contrariwise, and even more so on a hard surface. Taxying the thing in a stiff breeze can be a bit like spending time on a Stairmaster.
I flew a Chipmunk a few weeks ago, for the first time since I was a spotty Air Cadet, but there was no wind to speak of, so I didn't get to find out what it does when the wind is un co-operative.
Last edited by FNG; 9th Jun 2004 at 07:29.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Different people have different ideas of exactly what the word "groundloop" means (check this out! ), but based upon the definition in Jane's Aerospace Dictionary ("Involuntary uncontrolled turn while moving on ground, esp during take-off or landing, common on tailwheel aeroplanes with large ground angle, caused by directional instability"), I've been involved in three groundloops: twice as PIC, once as a pax. One incident was due to a 90-degree crosswind (no damage), and the other two were due to gyroscopic effect (minor wingtip damage 
). Pilot error in all three cases. 
The only advice that I can offer is that the many groundlooping stories should not be discounted. While I enjoy flying tailwheel airplanes, I do think that they have to be handled with due respect (especially the heavier, more powerful airplanes).
Have fun, but be careful!
), but based upon the definition in Jane's Aerospace Dictionary ("Involuntary uncontrolled turn while moving on ground, esp during take-off or landing, common on tailwheel aeroplanes with large ground angle, caused by directional instability"), I've been involved in three groundloops: twice as PIC, once as a pax. One incident was due to a 90-degree crosswind (no damage), and the other two were due to gyroscopic effect (minor wingtip damage ). Pilot error in all three cases. The only advice that I can offer is that the many groundlooping stories should not be discounted. While I enjoy flying tailwheel airplanes, I do think that they have to be handled with due respect (especially the heavier, more powerful airplanes).
Have fun, but be careful!