Do you know where this is?
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Daventry UK
Do you know where this is?
Do you know where this is?
RAC : FROM 04/04/23 15:25 TO 04/04/23 16:15 B0667/04
E)AUS 04-04-0318/1061/AS6
TEMPORARY CONTROLLED AIRSPACE ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS
AIRWAY L9 EXTENDED VERTICALLY FM KENET TO MIMBI FL65/2000FT AMSL
1525/1615. CONTROL AUTHORITY LACC
F)2000FT AMSL G)FL065
Perhaps the propagator of this Notam is unaware that these waypoints are not shown on the VFR 1/2mil map. But since the restriction goes down to 2000', it might be of interest to VFR pilots flying between Newbury and Swindon on Friday.
Is there anything that can be done to persuade the authors of Notams to make them more intelligible to their (presumably) target audience? This Notam does not even include grid references and presumably would not be plotted by any of the interpretive mapping software either.
In slight mitigation, a presumably related Notam does refer to '6mi E of Lyneham' giving Captain Sherlock Holmes a starter clue as to where this is. But it really is silly to make things so difficult when the Notam is presumably designed to separate VFR traffic from some VIP. Unless the Notam author has an axe to grind with the VIP, of course....
RAC : FROM 04/04/23 15:25 TO 04/04/23 16:15 B0667/04
E)AUS 04-04-0318/1061/AS6
TEMPORARY CONTROLLED AIRSPACE ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS
AIRWAY L9 EXTENDED VERTICALLY FM KENET TO MIMBI FL65/2000FT AMSL
1525/1615. CONTROL AUTHORITY LACC
F)2000FT AMSL G)FL065
Perhaps the propagator of this Notam is unaware that these waypoints are not shown on the VFR 1/2mil map. But since the restriction goes down to 2000', it might be of interest to VFR pilots flying between Newbury and Swindon on Friday.
Is there anything that can be done to persuade the authors of Notams to make them more intelligible to their (presumably) target audience? This Notam does not even include grid references and presumably would not be plotted by any of the interpretive mapping software either.
In slight mitigation, a presumably related Notam does refer to '6mi E of Lyneham' giving Captain Sherlock Holmes a starter clue as to where this is. But it really is silly to make things so difficult when the Notam is presumably designed to separate VFR traffic from some VIP. Unless the Notam author has an axe to grind with the VIP, of course....
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Buckinghamshire
Thanks for pointing this out David...
It seems unbelievably negligent. I think the problem is from what I have heard elsewhere (and I think it was from Mike Cross on here somewhere?) that there is effectively no editing oversight within the NOTAM publication system: unless you make a complaint. I think that AIS at NATS are the people to complain to, details here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/contact.htm
Meantime, here is a pictorial depiction of L9 highlighting KENET and MIMBI for those who don't have any other way of seeing this:
Hope this helps..!
Andy
It seems unbelievably negligent. I think the problem is from what I have heard elsewhere (and I think it was from Mike Cross on here somewhere?) that there is effectively no editing oversight within the NOTAM publication system: unless you make a complaint. I think that AIS at NATS are the people to complain to, details here: http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/en/contact.htm
Meantime, here is a pictorial depiction of L9 highlighting KENET and MIMBI for those who don't have any other way of seeing this:
Hope this helps..!
Andy
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Spot on David
Rod Bailes-Brown and I were at AIS Heathrow yesterday representing the PFA and AOPA respectively with AUS in attendance.
I had prepared a few examples of this kind of thing for their edification and there was some fairly frantic writing going on.
They are taking notice and were fairly gobsmacked at the scale of the problems. I think we will see action. It's down to the originators for not wording it correctly and to AIS for not educating their originators better. However as much of it originates from their bosses in the CAA we can't blame it all on AIS.
Here's a few more
Where's this?
AGA : FROM 04/04/01 12:59 TO PERM L1109/04
E)COLDHARBOUR FARM MICROLIGHT SITE WITHDRAWN ENR 5-5-4-1 REFERS
No co-ordinates so the user is expected to consult the AIP.
EGNS
RAC : FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
E)SRA FOR RWY 03 NOT AVBL
Appears in an area brief althought it concerns an approach aid.
Here's a better one
EGVA
RAC : FROM 04/02/19 07:30 TO 04/08/27 22:00 B0063/04
E)FAIRFORD MATZ ACTIVE
Names the aerodrome and it's outside the ATZ so should be in the area brief.
EGJJ
RAC : FROM 04/04/01 11:02 TO 04/09/01 12:00 EST C1161/04
E)THE ATTENTION OF PILOTS FLYING SVFR INTO AND OUT THE C.I. CTR IS DRAWN TO THE TEMPORARY PROHIBITED AREAS CREATED AROUND CAP DE LA HAGUE AND CAP DE FLAMANVILLE VRPS (EGJJ AD2-EGJJ-1-11 REFERS). DETAILS ARE IN OTHER UK AND FRENCH NOTAM.
“DETAILS ARE IN OTHER UK AND FRENCH NOTAM.” So why are they repeated in this one?
EGTT EGPX
OTH : FROM 03/01/17 15:17 TO PERM B0148/03
E)FREQ 123.45MHZ NOT TO BE USED AS AN AIR TO AIR COMM CHANNEL WITHIN
RANGE OF ANY VHF GROUND STATION IN UK FIRS
This one's been going since January last year. Is it really necessary to repeat it in every brief? It also falls outside the ICAO definition of what constitutes a NOTAM so shouldn't be there for that reason as well.
ICAO defines a PIB as a recapitulation in PLAIN LANGUAGE, I don't think this would win a plain language award.
EGTT
COM : FROM 03/12/01 08:00 TO PERM U1444/03
E) THE FOLLOWING STCICS GUARD FREQUENCIES AND BROADCASTS WILL BE
OPERATIONAL
FOXTROT SIERRA 4742KHZ, ALPHA LIMA 5702KHZ
DELTA WHISKY 9031KHZ, HOTEL WHISKEY 11247KHZ
FOXTROT 13257KHZ, BRAVO ECHO 18018KHZ
FS, AL, DW, AND HW DUAL MONITORED
H+00 QNH AL, DW, HW, BE
H+30 AFCS AL,DW,HW,BE
MPA BROADCAST FS, DW
Mike
Rod Bailes-Brown and I were at AIS Heathrow yesterday representing the PFA and AOPA respectively with AUS in attendance.
I had prepared a few examples of this kind of thing for their edification and there was some fairly frantic writing going on.
They are taking notice and were fairly gobsmacked at the scale of the problems. I think we will see action. It's down to the originators for not wording it correctly and to AIS for not educating their originators better. However as much of it originates from their bosses in the CAA we can't blame it all on AIS.
Here's a few more
Where's this?
AGA : FROM 04/04/01 12:59 TO PERM L1109/04
E)COLDHARBOUR FARM MICROLIGHT SITE WITHDRAWN ENR 5-5-4-1 REFERS
No co-ordinates so the user is expected to consult the AIP.
EGNS
RAC : FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
E)SRA FOR RWY 03 NOT AVBL
Appears in an area brief althought it concerns an approach aid.
Here's a better one
EGVA
RAC : FROM 04/02/19 07:30 TO 04/08/27 22:00 B0063/04
E)FAIRFORD MATZ ACTIVE
Names the aerodrome and it's outside the ATZ so should be in the area brief.
EGJJ
RAC : FROM 04/04/01 11:02 TO 04/09/01 12:00 EST C1161/04
E)THE ATTENTION OF PILOTS FLYING SVFR INTO AND OUT THE C.I. CTR IS DRAWN TO THE TEMPORARY PROHIBITED AREAS CREATED AROUND CAP DE LA HAGUE AND CAP DE FLAMANVILLE VRPS (EGJJ AD2-EGJJ-1-11 REFERS). DETAILS ARE IN OTHER UK AND FRENCH NOTAM.
“DETAILS ARE IN OTHER UK AND FRENCH NOTAM.” So why are they repeated in this one?
EGTT EGPX
OTH : FROM 03/01/17 15:17 TO PERM B0148/03
E)FREQ 123.45MHZ NOT TO BE USED AS AN AIR TO AIR COMM CHANNEL WITHIN
RANGE OF ANY VHF GROUND STATION IN UK FIRS
This one's been going since January last year. Is it really necessary to repeat it in every brief? It also falls outside the ICAO definition of what constitutes a NOTAM so shouldn't be there for that reason as well.
ICAO defines a PIB as a recapitulation in PLAIN LANGUAGE, I don't think this would win a plain language award.
EGTT
COM : FROM 03/12/01 08:00 TO PERM U1444/03
E) THE FOLLOWING STCICS GUARD FREQUENCIES AND BROADCASTS WILL BE
OPERATIONAL
FOXTROT SIERRA 4742KHZ, ALPHA LIMA 5702KHZ
DELTA WHISKY 9031KHZ, HOTEL WHISKEY 11247KHZ
FOXTROT 13257KHZ, BRAVO ECHO 18018KHZ
FS, AL, DW, AND HW DUAL MONITORED
H+00 QNH AL, DW, HW, BE
H+30 AFCS AL,DW,HW,BE
MPA BROADCAST FS, DW
Mike
Not so N, but still FG
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,417
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From: London, UK
Many thanks for this very helpful information. Could I suggest that the thread title be changed to something like "Important: temporary CAS extension Swindon area 24/04". I am sufficiently sad to read most threads near the top of the first page, but some people are more choosy.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
AIS are on to this one. To precis the response it originated in MoD who passed it on to AUS (Airspace Utilisation Section of the CAA) without any co-ordinates.
AUS say they did not have a copy of the co-ordinates for significant points readily available
nor can they be stored within their current system (due for update soon).
AIS have sent them a reference copy of the data and they will try to do better next time.
Mike
AUS say they did not have a copy of the co-ordinates for significant points readily available
nor can they be stored within their current system (due for update soon).AIS have sent them a reference copy of the data and they will try to do better next time.
Mike
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 110
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From: Hants
Mike
In your example
"E) THE FOLLOWING STCICS GUARD FREQUENCIES AND BROADCASTS WILL BE
OPERATIONAL
FOXTROT SIERRA 4742KHZ....."
(which annoyingly appears in all PIB's I've grabbed this year) - any idea what they're actually trying to tell us? Complete gobbeldy gook to me.
thanks
Rich
In your example
"E) THE FOLLOWING STCICS GUARD FREQUENCIES AND BROADCASTS WILL BE
OPERATIONAL
FOXTROT SIERRA 4742KHZ....."
(which annoyingly appears in all PIB's I've grabbed this year) - any idea what they're actually trying to tell us? Complete gobbeldy gook to me.
thanks
Rich
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
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From: Chichester, UK
Mike, talking about invalid NOTAMs, we often see
Rumour at the airfield is that this doesn't happen and hasn't for years - so I called the number to find out; you get Alenia Marconi Systems in Cowes who haven't got the faintest idea what this NOTAM is about or why their number is on it (I was redirected several times, but nobody I talked to has any idea - i've got somebody asking around, and they'll call me back if they find anything). It seems that either the number is totally wrong or the NOTAM is some ghost in the system and doesn't apply any more. At the very least, if you called and asked for launch times they wouldn't be able to help.
Anyway, one more for the list ... and I'm obviously the first person in years to call
HTH
NAVW: FROM 04/04/01 05:00 TO 04/06/30 21:15 H1914/04
D)HJ
E)AUS 04-04-0080/770/AS5
RADIOSONDE BALLOONS TO BE LAUNCHED FROM 5045N 00119W SOMERTON,
ISLE OF WIGHT, DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS ONLY AND SUBJECT TO FORECAST
METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS.
CONTACT FOR LAUNCH TIMES, TEL 01983 294141.
F)SFC G)UNL
D)HJ
E)AUS 04-04-0080/770/AS5
RADIOSONDE BALLOONS TO BE LAUNCHED FROM 5045N 00119W SOMERTON,
ISLE OF WIGHT, DURING DAYLIGHT HOURS ONLY AND SUBJECT TO FORECAST
METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS.
CONTACT FOR LAUNCH TIMES, TEL 01983 294141.
F)SFC G)UNL
Anyway, one more for the list ... and I'm obviously the first person in years to call
HTH
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,615
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From: Buckinghamshire
Mike,
You should get a bl**dy knighthood for all your efforts on this and other fronts... for "services to aviation"...!
You said
That really takes the cake: surely its in the AIP!?!?!?!
This really exposes the nonsenses and laxness in the system. How is it that other airspace users don't complain? Presumably airlines OPS departments mask these gaps by filing in the blanks themselves? I guess the MIL do likewise (or don't care as they are faster and have guns...)
Andy
You should get a bl**dy knighthood for all your efforts on this and other fronts... for "services to aviation"...!
You said
AUS say they did not have a copy of the co-ordinates for significant points readily available
This really exposes the nonsenses and laxness in the system. How is it that other airspace users don't complain? Presumably airlines OPS departments mask these gaps by filing in the blanks themselves? I guess the MIL do likewise (or don't care as they are faster and have guns...)
Andy
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
The answer of course is the airlines in the main fly SIDS STARS and Airways under a Flight Plan and under ATC control. No-one has an air display or a parachute jump or what used to be called a Purple Airway in class A so it's only us poor muppets who have to deal with it.
I can tell you that the Quality Manager at AIS has been monitoring this thread and as a result he got the Stokenchurch and Buxton NOTAM re-issued before I had passed anything on to him.
It may not always be apparant but they do notice.
Mike
I can tell you that the Quality Manager at AIS has been monitoring this thread and as a result he got the Stokenchurch and Buxton NOTAM re-issued before I had passed anything on to him.
It may not always be apparant but they do notice.
Mike
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,068
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From: Brighton. UK. (Via Liverpool).
Thanks for your input Mike, I know it is much appreciated by all who read this forum.
Perhaps then they would be able to offer us ppruners a visit to their place for an informal chat/meeting about how things have developed and a Q+A session too.
I am sure that would be a positive step to make.
I can tell you that the Quality Manager at AIS has been monitoring this thread
I am sure that would be a positive step to make.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 110
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From: North of the Wall
STCICS
Just to clear this one up - it's the military HF radio system. The rest of that notam refers to which designators (2 letter combination) match which freqs and when they will be active.
As for the rest of the notams mentioned - I despair
AA
As for the rest of the notams mentioned - I despair
AA
Guest
Posts: n/a
As important it is to ensure that NOTAMS ( and the elusive NOTAWS) are easily interpreted I would venture that an alarming proportion of recreational pilots NEVER consult them.
All efforts should be made to educate all strata of licenced pilots that it is imperative to be fully briefed prior to departure.
I have flown locally in the past without checking weather NOTAMS or even if I have matching socks. Just as I drive without consulting AA Roadwatch the Police or BBC weather.
The level of ignorance in rank and file PPL's about the wealth of enroute info is astounding though largely not admitted.
The efforts of the aforementioned is self evident and worthy of high praise. But what higher praise than every pilot contemplating a flight willingly seeking out info which has been diligently presented for their safety?
Discuss
Sir George Cayley
All efforts should be made to educate all strata of licenced pilots that it is imperative to be fully briefed prior to departure.
I have flown locally in the past without checking weather NOTAMS or even if I have matching socks. Just as I drive without consulting AA Roadwatch the Police or BBC weather.
The level of ignorance in rank and file PPL's about the wealth of enroute info is astounding though largely not admitted.
The efforts of the aforementioned is self evident and worthy of high praise. But what higher praise than every pilot contemplating a flight willingly seeking out info which has been diligently presented for their safety?
Discuss
Sir George Cayley
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,784
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From: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
BRL
Re visits. Aside from the one which you and I attended Loughborough University Flying Club have visited and the IBM Flying Club are about to as well.
If PPRuNers would like another one I will be happy to see if I can fix one up.
Sir George
WRT education things are starting to happen.
Some PPRuNer's may have seen me on the Pilot stand at the London Air Show at Earls Court. I was there on the Friday and Saturday and was running through a 15 minute presentation and Q&A on NOTAM briefings.
I was very busy and pleased with the level of interest. A lot of people did not realise that the Narrow Route Brief is the one to go for most of the time, nor did they realise that they only needed to give the brief a name, say where they were going from and to and what height they were flying to get a brief valid for the next 48 hours. The rest of the boxes simply allow you to adjust the brief to give you better filtering. At this time of year you should be getting no more than 2 pages if you have got it right.
A lot of people did not realise that they could get all of their aerodrome charts, approach plates and comms info for any licensed airfield for nothing from the site.
This was all set up and paid for by Pilot. They have asked me to do the same again at Aerofair and the PFA Rally. Not sure whether I will be able to do all 6 days yet.
There is a strong possibility of AIS having someone there as well and you may see some more publicity and "how to's" appearing over the next month or two.
Mike
Re visits. Aside from the one which you and I attended Loughborough University Flying Club have visited and the IBM Flying Club are about to as well.
If PPRuNers would like another one I will be happy to see if I can fix one up.
Sir George
WRT education things are starting to happen.
Some PPRuNer's may have seen me on the Pilot stand at the London Air Show at Earls Court. I was there on the Friday and Saturday and was running through a 15 minute presentation and Q&A on NOTAM briefings.
I was very busy and pleased with the level of interest. A lot of people did not realise that the Narrow Route Brief is the one to go for most of the time, nor did they realise that they only needed to give the brief a name, say where they were going from and to and what height they were flying to get a brief valid for the next 48 hours. The rest of the boxes simply allow you to adjust the brief to give you better filtering. At this time of year you should be getting no more than 2 pages if you have got it right.
A lot of people did not realise that they could get all of their aerodrome charts, approach plates and comms info for any licensed airfield for nothing from the site.
This was all set up and paid for by Pilot. They have asked me to do the same again at Aerofair and the PFA Rally. Not sure whether I will be able to do all 6 days yet.
There is a strong possibility of AIS having someone there as well and you may see some more publicity and "how to's" appearing over the next month or two.
Mike
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 303
Likes: 0
From: Almost Scotland
Mike,
As has been said before, and I would like to add my voice to it, the work you are doing on liaison with AIS and with education of the GA community is second to none.
As a fairly frequent flyer I would like to feel that those sharing the airspace I am using have also informed themselves as to navigational, etc., restrictions, alterations, and anomalies. That way, our routes and actions are more easily understood by all.
I believe there are a number of people also giving their time to assist with the liaison and education tasks: thanks are due to them too.
Clarity, or at least accuracy and unambiguity, in the presentation of NOTAM data is an absolute requirement.
As has been said before, and I would like to add my voice to it, the work you are doing on liaison with AIS and with education of the GA community is second to none.
As a fairly frequent flyer I would like to feel that those sharing the airspace I am using have also informed themselves as to navigational, etc., restrictions, alterations, and anomalies. That way, our routes and actions are more easily understood by all.
I believe there are a number of people also giving their time to assist with the liaison and education tasks: thanks are due to them too.
Clarity, or at least accuracy and unambiguity, in the presentation of NOTAM data is an absolute requirement.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,650
Likes: 0
From: Chichester, UK
Planning for today, another NOTAM for the "fairly useless" collection
This is listed for VFR and IFR traffic, surface to FL999, in a 50nm radius (roughly) centred on Manston. Pretty big, really, but looking at the NOTAM i've got no idea what it's talking about other than that it's somehow related to what I guess are intersections. This makes me guess that it's not important to me pottering around at 2000ft. I suspect most people would give up there.
However, i'm feeling brave and so, after looking at the ENR references, I eventually managed to find a airway (?) "P7" from BARMI to LOGAN - which sounds hopeful. That part of the AIP doesn't make much sense to me as a non-IR'd PPL and as far as I can tell the route is always class A and FL85 and above. If that's right, then why is it a VFR NOTAM? If I've got it wrong and it is important to us VFR folks then it's still rubbish because despite reading it and looking up the references I've still got no clue how it relates to me...
AMEND CHART ENR 6-3-1-1
DELETE P7 SEGMENT BTN LOGAN AND KOPUL, P7 ONLY EXISTS BTN BARMI AND LOGAN
ENR 3-1-1-61 REFERS
DELETE P7 SEGMENT BTN LOGAN AND KOPUL, P7 ONLY EXISTS BTN BARMI AND LOGAN
ENR 3-1-1-61 REFERS
However, i'm feeling brave and so, after looking at the ENR references, I eventually managed to find a airway (?) "P7" from BARMI to LOGAN - which sounds hopeful. That part of the AIP doesn't make much sense to me as a non-IR'd PPL and as far as I can tell the route is always class A and FL85 and above. If that's right, then why is it a VFR NOTAM? If I've got it wrong and it is important to us VFR folks then it's still rubbish because despite reading it and looking up the references I've still got no clue how it relates to me...
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: South Yorkshire, UK
Perhaps the improvement most likely to get PPLs reading NOTAMS would be to put them into plain intelligible language. The current system of wording hails back to the old telex days of the fixed network, which no one now uses. NOTAMS are now obtained via the web, where everything else uses normal words and pictures. Indeed, wouldn't it be helpful if chart extracts etc were used as in the Kenet reply from AA ? Then there would be no excuse for PPLs
1) not bothering to get NOTAMS on the basis that they were either irrelevant or incomprehensible and
2) flying as though they didn't exist.
Just IMHO.
24R
1) not bothering to get NOTAMS on the basis that they were either irrelevant or incomprehensible and
2) flying as though they didn't exist.
Just IMHO.
24R
Northern Monkey
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: Newcastle, England
I agree with 24right, are we so short of bandwith that we have to use abreviations in the notams?
how about instead of
EGNS
RAC : FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
E)SRA FOR RWY 03 NOT AVBL
EGNS - Isle of Man
FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) for RUNWAY 03 NOT AVAILABLE
its only a few extra letters, and people can very quickly realise if it is relevent or not, rather than scratching their head, wondering where EGNS is, and wondering if SRAs are important to them, and double checking that avbl does indeed mean available
NB
how about instead of
EGNS
RAC : FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
E)SRA FOR RWY 03 NOT AVBL
EGNS - Isle of Man
FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45 C1109/04
Surveillance Radar Approach (SRA) for RUNWAY 03 NOT AVAILABLE
its only a few extra letters, and people can very quickly realise if it is relevent or not, rather than scratching their head, wondering where EGNS is, and wondering if SRAs are important to them, and double checking that avbl does indeed mean available
NB
Why do it if it's not fun?
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 4,782
Likes: 12
From: Bournemouth
Re Evo's NOTAM about the removal of the airway - I would suggest that this is relevant to VFR flight, because, if I've understood it correctly, some Class A airspace has been downgraded to Class G, and is therefore now available to us when it wasn't before. Would be nice if the NOTAM was in a format where we could easily understand that, though!
I like Ninja's "plain text" version of the Isle of Man NOTAM, except for the time line. Instead of:
FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45
Why not:
FROM 30 Mar 2004 13:21 TO 1 Jun 2004 05:45
Trying to figure whether 04/06/01 means 4 June 2001, 6 Apr 2001 or 1 Jun 2004 is enough to put anyone off!
FFF
-------------
I like Ninja's "plain text" version of the Isle of Man NOTAM, except for the time line. Instead of:
FROM 04/03/30 13:21 TO 04/06/01 05:45
Why not:
FROM 30 Mar 2004 13:21 TO 1 Jun 2004 05:45
Trying to figure whether 04/06/01 means 4 June 2001, 6 Apr 2001 or 1 Jun 2004 is enough to put anyone off!
FFF
-------------