Do you know where this is?
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: Hants
Sorry if you thought I was having a go at EVO, I was just saying that perhaps the Notam popped in because he didn't filter for VFR only.
Turns out that the Notam does appear in a VFR only PIB.
Thanks for turning it into English, FFF.
RR
Turns out that the Notam does appear in a VFR only PIB.
Thanks for turning it into English, FFF.
RR
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 696
Likes: 0
From: Bracknell, UK
To follow up on the original posting - the following
associated NOTAM is also significant - someone else
pointed out the L9 downward extension to me yesterday, but
I missed the extension of Class A right the way down
to the surface..until I phoned the AIS info line.
Ref: B0666/04
FIR: EGTT
Code: ACCA
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: Immed. atten. aircraft operators PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Aerodrome Enroute
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 065
Centre and radius (nm): 5130N00200W012
Parent ICAO: EGDL
Start date/time: 23/04/2004 15:30 UTC
End date/time: 23/04/2004 16:30 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 065
AUS 04-04-0318/1062/AS6
TEMPO CONTROLLED AIRSPACE(CLASS A)ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS
LYNEHAM CTZ/CTR EXTENDED 6NM EAST TO MIMBI FL65/SFC 1530/1630.
CONTROL AUTHORITY LYNEHAM ATC
associated NOTAM is also significant - someone else
pointed out the L9 downward extension to me yesterday, but
I missed the extension of Class A right the way down
to the surface..until I phoned the AIS info line.
Ref: B0666/04
FIR: EGTT
Code: ACCA
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: Immed. atten. aircraft operators PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Aerodrome Enroute
Lower limit (FL): 000
Upper limit (FL): 065
Centre and radius (nm): 5130N00200W012
Parent ICAO: EGDL
Start date/time: 23/04/2004 15:30 UTC
End date/time: 23/04/2004 16:30 UTC
Activity period: null
Lower height limit: 000
Upper height limit: 065
AUS 04-04-0318/1062/AS6
TEMPO CONTROLLED AIRSPACE(CLASS A)ESTABLISHED AS FOLLOWS
LYNEHAM CTZ/CTR EXTENDED 6NM EAST TO MIMBI FL65/SFC 1530/1630.
CONTROL AUTHORITY LYNEHAM ATC
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
From: Buckinghamshire
TLP MISSION NOTAM
BEWARE!
This NOTAM has suddenly appeared indicating a big MIL fast jet exercise from 2000FT to FL240 over vast tracts of the UK, north sea and the channel:
Here are some pictures depicting the areas outlined above:
Clearly this could be an issue for anyone planning a north sea or channel crossing anytime beween yesterday and the 13th of May.... as well as anyone planning to fly above 2000' anywhere in Norfolk and the East Midlands... so watch out!
But why did this appear in my Narrow Route Briefing for a route Benson - Popham - Fairoaks - Blackbushe - Benson?
Andy
This NOTAM has suddenly appeared indicating a big MIL fast jet exercise from 2000FT to FL240 over vast tracts of the UK, north sea and the channel:
NAVW: FROM 04/04/22 10:30 TO 04/05/13 13:30 H2543/04
D)1030-1330
E)AUS 04-04-0321/1077/AS3
TLP MISSION. UP TO 32 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH ENERGY
MANOEUVRES WI 5322N 00130W 5338N 00030E 5328N 00230E 5237N 00253E
5213N 00235E 5213N 00022W ORIGIN. 5320N 00151E 5230N 00247E 5130N
00200E 5107N 00200E 5107N 00200E 5100N 00127E 5045N 00127E 5006N
00000E 5037N 00040W 5045N 00030W 5041N 00030E ORIGIN. ACFT WILL
REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE BUT MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH
RULES OF AIR. CONTACT 0032 716 81515.
F)2000FT AMSL G)FL240
D)1030-1330
E)AUS 04-04-0321/1077/AS3
TLP MISSION. UP TO 32 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH ENERGY
MANOEUVRES WI 5322N 00130W 5338N 00030E 5328N 00230E 5237N 00253E
5213N 00235E 5213N 00022W ORIGIN. 5320N 00151E 5230N 00247E 5130N
00200E 5107N 00200E 5107N 00200E 5100N 00127E 5045N 00127E 5006N
00000E 5037N 00040W 5045N 00030W 5041N 00030E ORIGIN. ACFT WILL
REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE BUT MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH
RULES OF AIR. CONTACT 0032 716 81515.
F)2000FT AMSL G)FL240
Clearly this could be an issue for anyone planning a north sea or channel crossing anytime beween yesterday and the 13th of May.... as well as anyone planning to fly above 2000' anywhere in Norfolk and the East Midlands... so watch out!
But why did this appear in my Narrow Route Briefing for a route Benson - Popham - Fairoaks - Blackbushe - Benson?
Andy
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
From: EuroGA.org
This may be a daft question.
I started flying recently, in 2000. Back then, there were no internet-based notam services AFAIK. The flying school had a thick printout of notams pinned to a notice board, which one was supposed to wade through and check every item on every page for relevance. As a result, almost nobody ever looked at it. I never did, for sure. An instructor occassionally did before sending a student off on a solo navex.
Now, one can get notams over the internet (most schools and most airfields still don't have internet facilities freely available, or available at all, but that's another subject) so suddenly lots more people are aware of the subject.
What has really changed though? Did more people bust airshow areas in the past?
These fast jet exercise areas cover vast areas of Class G and I can't help thinking that they are of little practical relevance as a result. They may as well notam the whole of the UK because fast jets can fly anywhere.
A Q for Aussie Andy: how did you plot those areas? It looks like you typed the coordinates into something like Navbox and created a dummy flight plan with them. I know there are websites which offer pictorial representation but one reads a lot of complaints that they cannot always get the required data feed.
I started flying recently, in 2000. Back then, there were no internet-based notam services AFAIK. The flying school had a thick printout of notams pinned to a notice board, which one was supposed to wade through and check every item on every page for relevance. As a result, almost nobody ever looked at it. I never did, for sure. An instructor occassionally did before sending a student off on a solo navex.
Now, one can get notams over the internet (most schools and most airfields still don't have internet facilities freely available, or available at all, but that's another subject) so suddenly lots more people are aware of the subject.
What has really changed though? Did more people bust airshow areas in the past?
These fast jet exercise areas cover vast areas of Class G and I can't help thinking that they are of little practical relevance as a result. They may as well notam the whole of the UK because fast jets can fly anywhere.
A Q for Aussie Andy: how did you plot those areas? It looks like you typed the coordinates into something like Navbox and created a dummy flight plan with them. I know there are websites which offer pictorial representation but one reads a lot of complaints that they cannot always get the required data feed.
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
Andy,
I think you may have overdone the dot-joining and combined what are actually separate bits of affected airspace into much bigger ones.
The is the picture which NotamPlot gives - the relevant bits are both the blue shaded and the red outlined sections:
Still gives cross-Channel flyers something to look out for though.
I think you may have overdone the dot-joining and combined what are actually separate bits of affected airspace into much bigger ones.
The is the picture which NotamPlot gives - the relevant bits are both the blue shaded and the red outlined sections:
Still gives cross-Channel flyers something to look out for though.
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
From: Buckinghamshire
Hi,
IO540:
On your first question, I think it depends where you trained and the standards enforced:
I also learned in 2000. At my club, BRitish Airways Flying Club at Booker, the NOTAMs were also posted on the wall in big thick printouts.
As students, we were DEFINITELY expected to read these before flight! the instructors encouraged us to do so - and I have no doubt that the CFI would have removed my or my instructor's testicles if he were to even suspect that I had launched on a cross-country navex without reading them..! (Those who know "our John" will know that this is no exageration!)
To make it easier for us, NOTAM which impacted the local area out to say 25NM or so were highlighted and given a number which corresponded with a circle drawn on a chart on the wall nearby. This made it quick and easy for early stage students to make a quick check, and encouraged the habit. As far as I was concerned, it was always normal to walk over to the briefing wall to look at the weather (F214/F215) and NOTAM before flight. I didn't always understand, so would ask instructor before flight to help me understand. We also made a habit of calling the Red Arrows 0500 freephone number too.
Even then - in 2000 - it was possible to get a web-briefing by the way, or to get the NOTAM by fax. I tended to do this before Navex flights while planning them in the week.
So I don't think NOTAM have ever been optional: but I don't think the routine use of NOTAM is taught the same at all schools.
Yep, Navbox.
Fly Stimulator - well that looks much more reasonable! I don't doubt NOTAM PLOT - but if you try plotting the actual coordinates given in the NOTAM above on a map, then I think you will come out with the ridiculous shape I have! Maybe the real issue in this case is something going wrong in translation in the AIS system? Can you see the raw input for NOTAM PLOT? Is it different to the text I have above?
Good night all!
Andy
IO540:
On your first question, I think it depends where you trained and the standards enforced:
I also learned in 2000. At my club, BRitish Airways Flying Club at Booker, the NOTAMs were also posted on the wall in big thick printouts.
As students, we were DEFINITELY expected to read these before flight! the instructors encouraged us to do so - and I have no doubt that the CFI would have removed my or my instructor's testicles if he were to even suspect that I had launched on a cross-country navex without reading them..! (Those who know "our John" will know that this is no exageration!)
To make it easier for us, NOTAM which impacted the local area out to say 25NM or so were highlighted and given a number which corresponded with a circle drawn on a chart on the wall nearby. This made it quick and easy for early stage students to make a quick check, and encouraged the habit. As far as I was concerned, it was always normal to walk over to the briefing wall to look at the weather (F214/F215) and NOTAM before flight. I didn't always understand, so would ask instructor before flight to help me understand. We also made a habit of calling the Red Arrows 0500 freephone number too.
Even then - in 2000 - it was possible to get a web-briefing by the way, or to get the NOTAM by fax. I tended to do this before Navex flights while planning them in the week.
So I don't think NOTAM have ever been optional: but I don't think the routine use of NOTAM is taught the same at all schools.
It looks like you typed the coordinates into something like Navbox and created a dummy flight plan with them.
Fly Stimulator - well that looks much more reasonable! I don't doubt NOTAM PLOT - but if you try plotting the actual coordinates given in the NOTAM above on a map, then I think you will come out with the ridiculous shape I have! Maybe the real issue in this case is something going wrong in translation in the AIS system? Can you see the raw input for NOTAM PLOT? Is it different to the text I have above?
Good night all!
Andy
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
Andy,
As follows...
Ref: H2543/04
FIR: EGTT
Code: WELW
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Nav Warning
Lower limit (FL): 020
Upper limit (FL): 240
Centre and radius (nm): 5157N00035E113
Parent ICAO: EGTT
Start date/time: 22/04/2004 10:30 UTC
End date/time: 13/05/2004 13:30 UTC
Activity period: 1030-1330
Lower height limit: 020
Upper height limit: 240
AUS 04-04-0321/1077/AS3
TLP MISSION. UP TO 32 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH ENERGY
MANOEUVRES WI 5322N 00130W 5338N 00030E 5328N 00230E 5237N 00253E
5213N 00235E 5213N 00022W ORIGIN. 5320N 00151E 5230N 00247E 5130N
00200E 5107N 00200E 5107N 00200E 5100N 00127E 5045N 00127E 5006N
00000E 5037N 00040W 5045N 00030W 5041N 00030E ORIGIN. ACFT WILL
REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE BUT MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH
RULES OF AIR. CONTACT 0032 716 81515.
I agree it isn't at all clear how one is meant to tell which subsets of the list of co-ordinates actually bound a complete area. It would be interesting to know what algorithm NotamPlot is applying. Its result does look more reasonable, but if I'd plotted it myself I'd have come up with exactly the same answer as you did.
BTW - must go on another outing once we've cracked these stealth NOTAMs!
Can you see the raw input for NOTAM PLOT?
Ref: H2543/04
FIR: EGTT
Code: WELW
Traffic: VFR IFR
Purpose: PIB entry Operationally significant for flights
Scope: Nav Warning
Lower limit (FL): 020
Upper limit (FL): 240
Centre and radius (nm): 5157N00035E113
Parent ICAO: EGTT
Start date/time: 22/04/2004 10:30 UTC
End date/time: 13/05/2004 13:30 UTC
Activity period: 1030-1330
Lower height limit: 020
Upper height limit: 240
AUS 04-04-0321/1077/AS3
TLP MISSION. UP TO 32 FAST JET ACFT WILL CONDUCT HIGH ENERGY
MANOEUVRES WI 5322N 00130W 5338N 00030E 5328N 00230E 5237N 00253E
5213N 00235E 5213N 00022W ORIGIN. 5320N 00151E 5230N 00247E 5130N
00200E 5107N 00200E 5107N 00200E 5100N 00127E 5045N 00127E 5006N
00000E 5037N 00040W 5045N 00030W 5041N 00030E ORIGIN. ACFT WILL
REMAIN CLEAR OF REGULATED AIRSPACE BUT MAY BE UNABLE TO COMPLY WITH
RULES OF AIR. CONTACT 0032 716 81515.
I agree it isn't at all clear how one is meant to tell which subsets of the list of co-ordinates actually bound a complete area. It would be interesting to know what algorithm NotamPlot is applying. Its result does look more reasonable, but if I'd plotted it myself I'd have come up with exactly the same answer as you did.
BTW - must go on another outing once we've cracked these stealth NOTAMs!
Last edited by Fly Stimulator; 23rd April 2004 at 22:25.
PPruNaholic!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,615
Likes: 0
From: Buckinghamshire
... must go on another outing ...
{suppose I should use PM for this... too late!}
Andy
Carbonfibre-based lifeform
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 747
Likes: 0
From: London
Check your emails!
Since you mention Laon though, I must NOTAM the fact that it contains one of my favourite small French hotels - the Hôtel de la Bannière de France. Excellent restaurant too.
Since you mention Laon though, I must NOTAM the fact that it contains one of my favourite small French hotels - the Hôtel de la Bannière de France. Excellent restaurant too.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 716
Likes: 7
From: London
Lots of countries... from a little googling I've sussed that it's training under the auspices of the "Tactical Leadership Programme".
Everyone turns up with loads of flashy kit and goes out to play together. Then again, there is a DA-20 listed for the UK... pity the pilot turning up in that
Click on TLP 2004/3 on this TLP enthusiast site
Looks like they sent about 20 out on excercise on Thursday.
Everyone turns up with loads of flashy kit and goes out to play together. Then again, there is a DA-20 listed for the UK... pity the pilot turning up in that
Click on TLP 2004/3 on this TLP enthusiast site
Looks like they sent about 20 out on excercise on Thursday.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
From: North of the Wall
I wouldn't worry about the DA-20. Our friends at FRA will always have one ex-mil pilot up front, and an ex-mil nav down the back managing the squiggly amps stuff. Flying with loads of FJs simply won't phase them, and they are rather good at looking after themselves...
TLP will NOTAM missions all over Europe, and then pick the area with the best weather on the morning of the mission. In my experience, they only pitch up to the UK about once every five times the NOTAM appears.
TLP will NOTAM missions all over Europe, and then pick the area with the best weather on the morning of the mission. In my experience, they only pitch up to the UK about once every five times the NOTAM appears.
